[quote]Eli B wrote:
5. Good god I’m not wrestling my mom. Shes a sixty plus year old post-menopausal grandmother half my height and weight.[/quote]
Point proven.
[quote]Eli B wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If you don’t understand that there is a difference between man and a woman, I can’t help you. You are just plain and utterly >>>>retarded.<<<<<<
[/quote]
You don’t happen to remember when over in PWI I manned up and apologized for calling a belief you held ‘batshit crazy’ do you?[/quote]
I’m sure you did, have no reason not to believe you, but no I don’t remember. I’m sure the previous discussion has some affect on this conversation. I’m not saying that you’re retarded, I’m saying that if you don’t see a difference then I can’t help you (and you’re retarded ;)). Now, if you see a difference between a man and a woman, but disagree that it should be a hindrance to the sport then I can put up a rational argument trying to explain my opinion, but it falls into a personal opinion then I suppose
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]olee da super smart one wrote:
It was wrestling, not freaking UFC or boxing.
[b][center]I don’t think the “violence” argument has as much weight with such a controlled, non-striking skill sport.[/center][/b][/quote]
[/quote]
I want to pair Olee’s statement with this video once again.
[/quote]
You guys are missing the point. There’s no girls who can compete at the level in that video and no girls are trying too. In high school there are some girls who can compete and they should be allowed too.[/quote]
Wrestling is sport of weight classes there are a FINITE number of spots on a team. If she is incapable of going all the way, then all she is doing is WASTING everyone’s time and taking the spot of a boy who has a chance to go all the way. But everyone “feels good” that she got to play with the boys, right? Fucking bullshit.[/quote]
Even in my shit wrestling program you competed for your spot every week. Either it was an open spot or she won it fair and square. I imagine its that way all over.
Wrestling is a sport for the deef, blind, amputees, people with congenital birth defects and women. I cannot fathom why this angers you.
And talking about torn eyelids and broken knee caps. Seriously if that shit doesn’t happen to blind dudes at a rate that makes it too dangerous for them why can’t a girl roll?
Now if a guy has to throw away his dreams of a state championship cause he won’t wrestle a woman, a black guy, a homosexual, or an amputee or a blind guy, thems the breaks of personal integrity I guess.
And no, dudes shouldn’t compete on girls teams. Its a logical fallacy that one implies the other.
^ A man will usually have an unfair competitive advantage in a women’s league. A woman will not in the reverse situation.
Now which of you paternalistic condescending misogynists is gonna give an inch on this one?[/quote]
What about equality? Who are you to try and force boy’s who if raised right has been told not to hurt ladies turn around and expect them to slam them to the mat.[/quote]
Please read my fourth paragraph.
Also, as shit a wrestler I was, I am confident in my ability to not only beat a girl, but to beat her gently.
I could quick pin her, I could tech fall her on points with take down and release.
[/quote]
So could I, but if I hurt boys (or men, whatever you want to call them, who had been wrestling for 5-10-15 years) on a weekly basis in meets, what do you think is going to happen to a female? Because, if I wrestle I go full on, no bullshitting, I’m not going to rag doll someone across the mat to show how cool I am. I will attempt to tear their shit up as hard as I can and as fast as I can. Now, consciously I can’t do that to a woman, and consciously if I’m not going to wrestle 100 percent I might as well not step on the damn mat.
If you don’t understand that there is a difference between man and a woman, I can’t help you. You are just plain and utterly retarded.
Tell me this, if you have any kind of relationship as I do with my father, I wrestle, fight, punch, roll with my father from time to time. Now, tell me, what kind of fucking lunatic would think they could do that to their mother without their father royally kicking their ass? You see the difference, my mother is no pansy, I’m sure she could kick my ass and your ass at the same time while making supper and carrying a baby on her hip. She’s that tough, but never in my right mind would I think that wrestling, fighting, punching, or rolling with my mother was a good idea. NEVER! What a total lack of respect.[/quote]
Sorry, but I’m throwing the bullshit flag on the mother reference. Has no bearing on a 14 y/o girl who has been wrestling for 11 years. Your argument at this point is invalid. Just come out and say that you won’t wrestle a girl and leave it at that. That is your choice. Just don’t come up with a bunch of bullshit to try and back it up. Please. Spare us.
Well, from the things that I have read and the things that I have seen (dealing with women in wrestling), she has had several men bow out from wrestling her. So, to say that she earned it with a 1.6:1 winning ratio and several men forfeiting, eh. Earn is debatable.[/quote]
Source?
I’ve been combing the news stories for more info about her route to the state tourney but I can mostly only find erroneous information or the standard AP feed.
If Iowa is anything like Missouri she would have to place in the top four in districts, then move on to the more competitive sectionals, where she would again have to place top four, and then qualify for state.
Record only affected seeding in my experience.
I only ever made it to sectionals my senior year. Shits no joke. Never made state. No girl would have ever stood between me and a medal.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Now, if you see a difference between a man and a woman, but disagree that it should be a hindrance to the sport then I can put up a rational argument trying to explain my opinion, but it falls into a personal opinion then I suppose[/quote]
I’ll be damned if that isn’t perfectly reasonable.
[quote]Eli B wrote:
Well, from the things that I have read and the things that I have seen (dealing with women in wrestling), she has had several men bow out from wrestling her. So, to say that she earned it with a 1.6:1 winning ratio and several men forfeiting, eh. Earn is debatable.[/quote]
Source?
I’ve been combing the news stories for more info about her route to the state tourney but I can mostly only find erroneous information or the standard AP feed.
If Iowa is anything like Missouri she would have to place in the top four in districts, then move on to the more competitive sectionals, where she would again have to place top four, and then qualify for state.
Record only affected seeding in my experience.
I only ever made it to sectionals my senior year. Shits no joke. Never made state. No girl would have ever stood between me and a medal.[/quote]
I’ll have to find the data I researched yesterday. She was 21-13, and wrestled for most of those wins. She was regional (sectional?) runner-up. Do I need to continue explaining the merits???
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
Sorry, but I’m throwing the bullshit flag on the mother reference. Has no bearing on a 14 y/o girl who has been wrestling for 11 years. Your argument at this point is invalid. Just come out and say that you won’t wrestle a girl and leave it at that. That is your choice. Just don’t come up with a bunch of bullshit to try and back it up. Please. Spare us. [/quote]
Go ahead, I’ll throw my bullshit flag, too. Girls should not wrestle with boys. It’s not about ability, sorry. Just because someone may have the ability to do something, doesn’t give them the right to do it.
I already said I wouldn’t wrestle a girl. The reason I brought up the mother is because most people have respect for their mothers and even if she had the ability to kick their ass (as my mother did, at least until sixth grade) still wouldn’t hit her or wrestle her.
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
I’ll have to find the data I researched yesterday. She was 21-13, and wrestled for most of those wins. She was regional (sectional?) runner-up. Do I need to continue explaining the merits???[/quote]
If I remember this guy bowed out to her twice this season and one other guy in the current tournament (I got this from listening to Sports Center drone on about this like they do once a year with some guy bowing out during a champion tournament to a girl).
Edit: I made a mistake on the ratio… 1.6154:1 of wins to loses.
She only had 3 forfeits. Next argument?
http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcaonline/results/scorebook/WrestlerInfo.aspx?SchoolYear=0&ID=1347310
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
She only had 3 forfeits. Next argument?
Well, several forfeits, I didn’t realize until after I said that statement that the wrestler in question forfeited twice (I figured three dudes did the same thing).
Edit: Win:Lose ratio of 1.4:1
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
Sorry, but I’m throwing the bullshit flag on the mother reference. Has no bearing on a 14 y/o girl who has been wrestling for 11 years. Your argument at this point is invalid. Just come out and say that you won’t wrestle a girl and leave it at that. That is your choice. Just don’t come up with a bunch of bullshit to try and back it up. Please. Spare us. [/quote]
Go ahead, I’ll throw my bullshit flag, too. Girls should not wrestle with boys. It’s not about ability, sorry. Just because someone may have the ability to do something, doesn’t give them the right to do it.
I already said I wouldn’t wrestle a girl. The reason I brought up the mother is because most people have respect for their mothers and even if she had the ability to kick their ass (as my mother did, at least until sixth grade) still wouldn’t hit her or wrestle her.[/quote]
Well…stick to your beliefs, then. If a woman decides to stand across from me on the wrestling mat, or in the ring, then I will hold to the spirit of competition as she will expect me to. I will do my best to win. She understands this if she is standing before me ready to engage. I am all for chivalry, but in this setting, I am no gentleman. Until it’s over, then I’ll help you up, shake your hand, then go drink.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
She only had 3 forfeits. Next argument?
Well, several forfeits, I didn’t realize until after I said that statement that the wrestler in question forfeited twice (I figured three dudes did the same thing).
Edit: Win:Lose ratio of 1.4:1[/quote]
Districts, sectionals, and state. Its a whole new season, no records.
Anyway I think we went ahead and killed this thing to death. And yet, here I am.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
She only had 3 forfeits. Next argument?
Well, several forfeits, I didn’t realize until after I said that statement that the wrestler in question forfeited twice (I figured three dudes did the same thing).
Edit: Win:Lose ratio of 1.4:1[/quote]
3 forfeits out of 36 matches. I had that many when I was competing. Give credit where it is due, BC. She earned her way to states.
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
Sorry, but I’m throwing the bullshit flag on the mother reference. Has no bearing on a 14 y/o girl who has been wrestling for 11 years. Your argument at this point is invalid. Just come out and say that you won’t wrestle a girl and leave it at that. That is your choice. Just don’t come up with a bunch of bullshit to try and back it up. Please. Spare us. [/quote]
Go ahead, I’ll throw my bullshit flag, too. Girls should not wrestle with boys. It’s not about ability, sorry. Just because someone may have the ability to do something, doesn’t give them the right to do it.
I already said I wouldn’t wrestle a girl. The reason I brought up the mother is because most people have respect for their mothers and even if she had the ability to kick their ass (as my mother did, at least until sixth grade) still wouldn’t hit her or wrestle her.[/quote]
Well…stick to your beliefs, then. If a woman decides to stand across from me on the wrestling mat, or in the ring, then I will hold to the spirit of competition as she will expect me to. I will do my best to win. She understands this if she is standing before me ready to engage. I am all for chivalry, but in this setting, I am no gentleman. Until it’s over, then I’ll help you up, shake your hand, then go drink.
[/quote]
I don’t know, guess my spirit of Chivalry comes before my spirit of competition.
P.S. I’ve never been a gentleman on the mat, but I’ve never not attempted to be a gentleman with a female.
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
She only had 3 forfeits. Next argument?
Well, several forfeits, I didn’t realize until after I said that statement that the wrestler in question forfeited twice (I figured three dudes did the same thing).
Edit: Win:Lose ratio of 1.4:1[/quote]
3 forfeits out of 36 matches. I had that many when I was competing. Give credit where it is due, BC. She earned her way to states. [/quote]
I didn’t say she didn’t earn her way to state (if I did mia culpa), I was referring to her winning the state title (I believe I heard where she won the title?) that is what I disagreed with. Now, would I be bum hurt if I had some of my opponents forfeit and the opponent for the title forfeited and I won the title, no. But I wouldn’t expect people to say I earned it even if I was better than my opponent.
Earning her way to state, yes she did that. And, I am sure her friends and family are proud of her accomplishments, I’d even shake her hand and congratulate her if I met her in person.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
She only had 3 forfeits. Next argument?
Well, several forfeits, I didn’t realize until after I said that statement that the wrestler in question forfeited twice (I figured three dudes did the same thing).
Edit: Win:Lose ratio of 1.4:1[/quote]
3 forfeits out of 36 matches. I had that many when I was competing. Give credit where it is due, BC. She earned her way to states. [/quote]
I didn’t say she didn’t earn her way to state (if I did mia culpa), I was referring to her winning the state title (I believe I heard where she won the title?) that is what I disagreed with. Now, would I be bum hurt if I had some of my opponents forfeit and the opponent for the title forfeited and I won the title, no. But I wouldn’t expect people to say I earned it even if I was better than my opponent.
Earning her way to state, yes she did that. And, I am sure her friends and family are proud of her accomplishments, I’d even shake her hand and congratulate her if I met her in person.[/quote]
I also read an erroneous report that she won the title.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
Sorry, but I’m throwing the bullshit flag on the mother reference. Has no bearing on a 14 y/o girl who has been wrestling for 11 years. Your argument at this point is invalid. Just come out and say that you won’t wrestle a girl and leave it at that. That is your choice. Just don’t come up with a bunch of bullshit to try and back it up. Please. Spare us. [/quote]
Go ahead, I’ll throw my bullshit flag, too. Girls should not wrestle with boys. It’s not about ability, sorry. Just because someone may have the ability to do something, doesn’t give them the right to do it.
I already said I wouldn’t wrestle a girl. The reason I brought up the mother is because most people have respect for their mothers and even if she had the ability to kick their ass (as my mother did, at least until sixth grade) still wouldn’t hit her or wrestle her.[/quote]
Well…stick to your beliefs, then. If a woman decides to stand across from me on the wrestling mat, or in the ring, then I will hold to the spirit of competition as she will expect me to. I will do my best to win. She understands this if she is standing before me ready to engage. I am all for chivalry, but in this setting, I am no gentleman. Until it’s over, then I’ll help you up, shake your hand, then go drink.
[/quote]
I don’t know, guess my spirit of Chivalry comes before my spirit of competition.
P.S. I’ve never been a gentleman on the mat, but I’ve never not attempted to be a gentleman with a female.[/quote]
Well…I have a pretty strong sense of chivalry myself, however, on the wrestling mat or in the ring or cage, it has no place. If my opponent is female, I expect that she has trained sufficiently enough to be standing across from me, and means to win against me. She will not hold back and she doesn’t expect me to, either. She’s accepted and embraced the risks and challenging me, just as I have of her. It’s a similar concept with armed conflict as well. You don’t hear of it much, but it matters not whether the bullet comes from a man or woman or kid. What matters is winning and coming out alive. In competition, of course…the obvious emphasis is on winning.
And just to close this out, if the argument of girls should wrestle boys is a valid one, what about ladies training/fighting/living side-by-side with men in the military? I suppose you’re all against that as well? Food for thought…
An Iowa wrestler who became the first girl to win a state tournament match when her favored opponent refused to face her says she has no problem with his decision.
Cedar Falls freshman Cassy Herkelman said Friday that she feels Joel Northrup was entitled to default on their Thursday match because he believes boys should not wrestle girls because it’s a combat sport.
Northrup is a home-schooled sophomore who compiled a 35-4 pre-tournament record wrestling for Linn-Mar High School. He praised Herkelman’s achievements but said his religious beliefs prevented him from wrestling her.
Herkelman’s father says he respects Northrup’s choice but wishes it hadn’t garnered so much media attention.
Some of you bashing this kids beliefs are ridiculous. Even the father isn’t hating on this kid, and he has the right to, being it is his daughter that got the first ever win for a female in a state tournament* by default.
I get the impression from the ignorant bullshit some of you are posting that you have no fucking clue what a woman doing a combat sport looks like, so here’s an education:
First of all, getting thrown around like a sack of potatoes is fun in some women’s book.
This one is awesome! Fast forward to 4:25 and go from there.
Now, when I say controlled, I’m not saying that you don’t get thrown around. I’m saying that it takes a LOT of time and practice to perfect a certain type of movement because it’s not intuitive. In addition to having to control the type of offense you use (certain chokes and holds only), there’s a way of moving that makes those work. If you can’t move like that because you’re freaking out and just trying to take the other person down any way your body comes up with on the spot, you can’t fucking win. The less intuitive the type of movement, and the more restricted the type of knockout allowed, the more controlled the sport is. Thus, when I say wrestling is restrictive in such a way that it makes it less violent than MMA and UFC, there shouldn’t be an argument. That’s pretty damn obvious.
For instance, check out the video posted by AC and then check out this, and tell me which you consider to be the most violent:
Lastly, fighting, regardless of sex, is about seeing how good you are. The only person who can show you that is an opponent. If you beat someone, you teach them something about what they need to do differently to take their game to the next level. It’s not a fucking ego trip.
Not fighting this woman is denying someone, who’s trained for YEARS and beaten MANY (regardless of those who forfeited, she still won throughout the years many times or she wouldn’t be on that level) the chance to improve their game at something they LOVE. That’s rude and sad on many levels. At least do this person the decency of helping them improve what they’ve devoted half their life to.
[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
Well…I have a pretty strong sense of chivalry myself, however, on the wrestling mat or in the ring or cage, it has no place. If my opponent is female, I expect that she has trained sufficiently enough to be standing across from me, and means to win against me. She will not hold back and she doesn’t expect me to, either. She’s accepted and embraced the risks and challenging me, just as I have of her. [/quote]
At least a few people on this thread understand sportsmanship and respect.