Why's It Wrong to Round with Squats?

Training Bodybuilding
22

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
If you study the anatomy of the back, you will realise that it is immensely strong in both compressive and shear loading when in a neutral position i.e. not flexed, but gently curved in that way you see it in diagrams (cervical lordosis, thoracic kyphosis and lumbar lordosis).

Move out of that neutral range and you lose a vast amount of the inherent strength, especially in terms of shear loading. This can cause abberant loading on the facet joints, leading to degeneration over time, or facet capsule sprain in the actute term.

By flexing the lumbar spine, you also unevenly distribute load on the nucleus of the intervertebral disc, predisposing you to a herniation.

I could go on, lol, but I don’t want to send anyone to sleep.

BBB

I’m just curious, but when does the spine ever receive a shear load? I can see where it could receive uneven compressive load that could mimic shear loading, but not a shear load itself.[/quote]

Shear stress occurs in the squat because you need to bend your upper body forward to squat, so the back is not vertical. So, the load from the bar creates a bending moment that causes shear.

23

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
PS - hope this picture facilitates your understanding :slight_smile: I drew the black arrows on though I’m not happy with what I’m trying to convey with them. It’s late though ;)[/quote]

Do you have an engineering/physics background. The way you draw your arrows is suspiciously similar to the ones I draw in Mechanics of materials…
/hijack

To OP:

I don’t know about the specifics of the injuries associated with rounding your lower back on squats, but I know the application of power out of the bottom, if you do ATG squats, is severly diminished if your back is round. No real proof here, this is just through personal experience.

26

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Invictica wrote:
Do you have an engineering/physics background. The way you draw your arrows is suspiciously similar to the ones I draw in Mechanics of materials…
/hijack

Now I ‘engineer’ the structures and systems of the human body;

BBB[/quote]

Oh, that was corny BBB!

27

Ugh…now I feel like I have to post a video, I’m so damn paranoid after this thread!

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post a video!

29

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
If you study the anatomy of the back, you will realise that it is immensely strong in both compressive and shear loading when in a neutral position i.e. not flexed, but gently curved in that way you see it in diagrams (cervical lordosis, thoracic kyphosis and lumbar lordosis).

Move out of that neutral range and you lose a vast amount of the inherent strength, especially in terms of shear loading. This can cause abberant loading on the facet joints, leading to degeneration over time, or facet capsule sprain in the actute term.

By flexing the lumbar spine, you also unevenly distribute load on the nucleus of the intervertebral disc, predisposing you to a herniation.

I could go on, lol, but I don’t want to send anyone to sleep.

BBB

I’m just curious, but when does the spine ever receive a shear load? I can see where it could receive uneven compressive load that could mimic shear loading, but not a shear load itself.

You have to look at the levers. If the bottom of the spine is by the hips, yet the load (supported at the top of the thoracic spine) is in front of the hips, as it is in a squat or deadlift, then of course there is shear force, and quite a lot of it. this is borne primarily by the facet joints. Hyperlordose the lumbar spine as well as subject it to shear load and you will know about it.

BBB

PS - hope this picture facilitates your understanding :slight_smile: I drew the black arrows on though I’m not happy with what I’m trying to convey with them. It’s late though ;)[/quote]

I was for some reason under the impression that vertebra wouldn’t transmit a shear load. Sorta like a stack of lose bricks.

More along the lines that the muscle structure of the core would be like a cable system to convert all spinal loading into compression on the spine.

Something akin to a lattice tower crane. the metal lattice (spine) doesn’t support sear load well, so you use wire tension (spinal erectors, est.) to transfer loads to more favorable directions.

Disclaimer: I have little anatomical knowledge, this was just my shooting from the hip observational assumption.

30

Anyone have any idea how to rehab? I have truamitized L5/S1 and the facet joints btween L4/L5 from full squatting with kyphosis at the bottom. As a result of this rounding I now get muscle spasms, I’m assuming as a protective mechanism. Besides rest is there anything I can do? I would appreciate any input, thanks.

31

If you squat, your ass should be round.

32

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Invictica wrote:
Do you have an engineering/physics background. The way you draw your arrows is suspiciously similar to the ones I draw in Mechanics of materials…
/hijack

Yeah I started off as an engineer. Now I ‘engineer’ the structures and systems of the human body; it’s a lot more interesting and challenging, plust you actually get to talk to people rather than sitting behind a desk all day.

BBB[/quote]

You’re a cool guy but this post is just ignorant.

35

This might have already been covered, but useing a wider stance helps you keep a more vertical position wich helps me keep my back in a more neutral position with no rounding doen the bottom.

Also as sentoguy mentioned, high bar position helps too.

36

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

Take a stack of loose bricks and tilt them from the verticle. They will start to slide off each other, due to shear force.

BBB[/quote]

Yes, but you can use tension to create more favorable stress on a structure like I show with the crane. The metal lattice of the crane has a cantilevered load, but very little shear force. I’m not saying you are wrong, just explaining what my thoughts were.

37

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
JLu wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Invictica wrote:
Do you have an engineering/physics background. The way you draw your arrows is suspiciously similar to the ones I draw in Mechanics of materials…
/hijack

Yeah I started off as an engineer. Now I ‘engineer’ the structures and systems of the human body; it’s a lot more interesting and challenging, plust you actually get to talk to people rather than sitting behind a desk all day.

BBB

You’re a cool guy but this post is just ignorant.

Why? Both the engineering jobs I did involved sitting behind a desk, not really talking to people.

Engineer friends of mine always used to complain about having to deal with other engineers too, so I’m not only basing my comment on my own experience, but on that of others, too.

BBB[/quote]

Well first you state an opinion as fact “it’s a lot more interesting and challenging”, interest and challenge are relative terms. And second you and your friends are the exception rather than the rule, the whole basis of engineering is working in teams and in conjunction with other people.

Whether or not you like those other people is a different story, granted there are many engineers out there who fit the stereotypical nerdy/skinny socially inept weirdo but every fields has it’s weirdos.

40

[quote]JLu wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
JLu wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Invictica wrote:
Do you have an engineering/physics background. The way you draw your arrows is suspiciously similar to the ones I draw in Mechanics of materials…
/hijack

Yeah I started off as an engineer. Now I ‘engineer’ the structures and systems of the human body; it’s a lot more interesting and challenging, plust you actually get to talk to people rather than sitting behind a desk all day.

BBB

You’re a cool guy but this post is just ignorant.

Why? Both the engineering jobs I did involved sitting behind a desk, not really talking to people.

Engineer friends of mine always used to complain about having to deal with other engineers too, so I’m not only basing my comment on my own experience, but on that of others, too.

BBB

Well first you state an opinion as fact “it’s a lot more interesting and challenging”, interest and challenge are relative terms. And second you and your friends are the exception rather than the rule, the whole basis of engineering is working in teams and in conjunction with other people.

Whether or not you like those other people is a different story, granted there are many engineers out there who fit the stereotypical nerdy/skinny socially inept weirdo but every fields has it’s weirdos.[/quote]

dude, you have issues… lighten up!
(alit4. engineer)

good thread.