Why Train for Strength If Size Is Wanted?

[BONEZ217]

[quote]Scrawny175er wrote:
I think the Bodybuilding Governor of California said it right in his encyclopedia. While hypertrophy is achieved in the 6 to 12 rep range a solid base of strength achieved through power-lifting is a necessary prerequisite. Several articles on here have alluded to the relation between poundage and muscle growth. In Bret Contreras article about shoulder and trap development, he measured a variety of exercises to quantify muscle fiber stimulation via EMG. If you notice the numbers posted on compound exercises with increasing weight, it is obvious that the more weight you can handle, the more fiber activation you elicit.

With this in mind, the magic 6 to 12 rep range for hypertrophy is only relevant if you are able to handle significant poundage in the first place. I see people my size every day at the gym following routines ripped right out of Flex magazine and making absolutely no progress. It is downright absurd to think that 4 sets of 12 dumbbell curls with 25 lbs in each hand would invoke any sort of hypertrophy. It is impossible to damage the muscle enough to see any real, lasting gains. It is much easier to quantify this phenomenon with simple mathematics. With 4 sets of 12 reps with 25 lb dumbbells, 2,400 pounds total weight is moved. In contrast, 10 sets of 4 with 45 lb dumbbells comes to a grand total of 3,600 pounds moved. It’s easy to see how less advanced bodybuilders could benefit from low rep training initially. Once the weights handled become too high, hypertrophy training comes into play, as compound lifts at a four rep or less max would be strenuous on the joints and difficult to recover from. The requirement of bodybuilding is frequency, so such high loads wouldn’t make sense. Four sets of 12 with 60 lb dumbells would total 5680 lbs, quite a bit of weight moved in short time considering a 30 second rest between sets. Arnold trained full body when he was building his base of strength prior to his bodybuilding heydey, and lifted like a power-lifter. I am a strong believer in the theory that people take what they want (in this case what seems easiest) from a training program and ignore the rest. Oh, and as a side note, machines are generally abhorred by the strength and function community but in a bodybuilding context you are able to handle more poundage than with free weights and doesn’t muscle respond to increased stress, whether or not the stabilizers are involved? Think about it…[/quote]

Welcome to Tnation. Brace yourself.

[optheta]

I think bricknyce looks cute cause he keeps fat in his face, I would totally tap that

[Bricknyce]

Looking back on my OP, I do admit that I didn’t explain myself well and that’s why only handful of people understood what I was alluding to. It was similar to what Dan Duchaine used to say in his column in Ironman magazine, “We have tons of strength coaches. We need more size coaches.” Astute readers understood what he meant. I did. There’s nothing wrong with some people not understanding what I meant by it.

And actually, I’m not going to run away with my tail between my legs, but some people have actually made me think about SOME of my behavior on this board. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s the friends I grew up with in Queens, NY, and how we bust each others’ balls; lightly use words like “jagoff”, “asshole”, “jerkoff”, “schmuck”, “schlub”, and “schlep”; and have a way of fast and sarcastic talk. So that spilled onto here through the years. And sometimes I feel that I might not get a point across unless I use emotionally loaded words because it seems that a lot of people on the net–a lot of people in general rather–REALLY have short attention spans these days and will simply buzz right over your posts or even a resume and cover letter if you don’t “knock 'em dead”, so to speak. Know what I mean?

Perhaps I shouldn’t have written the words “dumb” and “irritated” in my posts. True. I should have explained myself better.

And again, I have no reason to argue with Dankid. Maybe he’s pesty at worst to some. At best, he just seems like a guy who takes working out seriously and puts a lot of thought into it, all while perhaps being pesty to some people here. That’s not a major offense in my book. The guy’s not malicious. Deep down I’m not either. So I sincerely apologize if my abrasive and sarcastic tone has truly offended people on here and I’ll do away with it. Several people PM me on here about nutrition and exercise and I’ve never missed responding to ONE message on here and FB. I always respond carefully and patiently and with detail.

Accusing me of gaining all of my knowledge on exercise from ONE book and a few columns in Flex years ago authored by Dorian Yates is pretty messed up considering I have over 5 years of professional experience and have academic degrees and a credential in nutrition. I never said or wrote anything on my profession to brag–EVER!–even when trying to actually show Chris Shugart and others what RDs actually do and how they’re trained and educated. What’s wrong with doing that when your profession is being falsely represented and bashed? If people aren’t fond of RDs, so be it. I’m not fond of lawyers or financiers, but I know they serve an important, integral roles in our society and I know darn well if I insult them I’m going to hear it from them.

[chillain]

Brick - good job on the ratios in those pics.

And when did you start justifying some of these rants of yours??

[Bricknyce]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
The one on the right is one of those “6’s”. She’s got a hard time getting men. LOL![/quote]

You really don’t need to defend yourself…but you could post more pics of her.[/quote]

Alright, dude.

Here’s another pic.

[Bricknyce]

[quote]chillain wrote:
Brick - good job on the ratios in those pics.

And when did you start justifying some of these rants of yours??
[/quote]

Dude, in all seriousness–I’m not acting dumb here–what do you mean by justification and ratios?

[Bricknyce]

I also actually thought that my post would get at best a dozen responses. I was shocked–like REALLY shocked–that it gained so much popularity within hours of being posted. Now I’m more than shocked. I’m actually blown away at how many posts have been made here. So the topic I brought up couldn’t have been SO bad or not any food for thought if there were this many posts (disregarding the posts in which people, including myself, were warring with each other).

[Bricknyce]

[quote]optheta wrote:
I think bricknyce looks cute cause he keeps fat in his face, I would totally tap that[/quote]

Dude, you’re being a full wiseass and actually posted liberally in my Rapid Fat Loss thread in the nutrition section that was so popular that it reached its limit. I started that post to recommend the diet and talk about how effective it was. You actually decided to quit the diet after losing 9 pounds in a short amount of time (what anyone else would be considered diet success).

Now you’re fucking with me?

[optheta]

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
I think bricknyce looks cute cause he keeps fat in his face, I would totally tap that[/quote]

Dude, you’re being a full wiseass and actually posted liberally in my Rapid Fat Loss thread in the nutrition section that was so popular that it reached its limit. I started that post to recommend the diet and talk about how effective it was. You actually decided to quit the diet after losing 9 pounds in a short amount of time (what anyone else would be considered diet success).

Now you’re fucking with me? [/quote]

I was saying how cute u r sheesh

[jasmincar]

• you don’t hold much value because you only hangout with womens that are 6’s.

I just lost the little faith I had left in social interaction. I think I am gonna quit talking.

[SteelyD]

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
The one on the right is one of those “6’s”. She’s got a hard time getting men. LOL![/quote]

You really don’t need to defend yourself…but you could post more pics of her.[/quote]

Alright, dude.

Here’s another pic. [/quote]

Thread SAVED!

[chillain]

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Brick - good job on the ratios in those pics.

And when did you start justifying some of these rants of yours??
[/quote]

Dude, in all seriousness–I’m not acting dumb here–what do you mean by justification and ratios? [/quote]

Whoops - not even like that Brick.

I’ve seen the rants and your other posts enough to know where your’e coming from. And I genuinely appreciate the ratios in these recent pics you’ve posted. For better or worse, that was the extent of my contribution.

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

I haven’t looked too much into the 5/3/1 program, to be honest.
[/quote]

Right here is where you should have stopped commented. That’s the reason we have threads like this. A bunch of armchair experts who feel the need to comment on everything, regardless of how little actual experience they have.

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
It seems like a “cookie cut” program, in which case, it wouldn’t be completely relevant to a bodybuilder (a bodybuilder who evolves his routine to suit his needs).

[/quote]

And you would be entirely wrong. It’s not a program, it’s a sensible method of progression that can be adapted to fit into just about any traditional training style. If you had the faintest clue as to what it was you were talking about, you would know that it is the farthest possible thing from “cookie cutter” and in fact, Jim has said this numerous times on this message board alone.[/quote]

Yeah oops, my mistake

Hence why I put the “disclaimer” lol

---

And to C_C, I now that you mentioned it, I do remember you going over this before - must be your long posts, by the time I’ve got to the end I’ve forgotten the beginning and middle haha…just kiding :)[/quote]
I can totally believe that

[NaturalBeasting]

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:
Brick - good job on the ratios in those pics.

And when did you start justifying some of these rants of yours??
[/quote]

Dude, in all seriousness–I’m not acting dumb here–what do you mean by justification and ratios? [/quote]

Hey dude. By ratio’s, he means the high female:male ratio. Good job being surrounded by all chicks in your pics.

By justification, I think he’s refering to your previous post when you explicitly spelled out that you’re only busting people’s balls, and you don’t really mean the things you say. Seriously it’s all good bro. I’d imagine most everyone knows that you don’t mean these things. It’s just the pussies, and people who don’t understand sarcasm/hyperbole that get offended.

I used to be a huge ball buster (in real life), and sometimes it ended up backfiring BIG TIME. Then one of my friends actually mentioned it to me and said something like “I know you like joking and ball busting, and I know you’re only messing around with people, but not everyone realizes that.” It really made me think about that shit. Now I try to be a little more low-key with people who I know are more emotional and can’t handle being busted on. It really sucks, but some people take every damn word you say to heart.

[NIguy]

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I also actually thought that my post would get at best a dozen responses. I was shocked–like REALLY shocked–that it gained so much popularity within hours of being posted. Now I’m more than shocked. I’m actually blown away at how many posts have been made here. So the topic I brought up couldn’t have been SO bad or not any food for thought if there were this many posts (disregarding the posts in which people, including myself, were warring with each other). [/quote]

it’s a valid post, there are alot of people just jumping on routine bandwagons around here who apparantly seem incapable of thinking for themselves.

[DJS]

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Looking back on my OP, I do admit that I didn’t explain myself well and that’s why only handful of people understood what I was alluding to. It was similar to what Dan Duchaine used to say in his column in Ironman magazine, “We have tons of strength coaches. We need more size coaches.” Astute readers understood what he meant. I did. There’s nothing wrong with some people not understanding what I meant by it.

And actually, I’m not going to run away with my tail between my legs, but some people have actually made me think about SOME of my behavior on this board. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s the friends I grew up with in Queens, NY, and how we bust each others’ balls; lightly use words like “jagoff”, “asshole”, “jerkoff”, “schmuck”, “schlub”, and “schlep”; and have a way of fast and sarcastic talk. So that spilled onto here through the years. And sometimes I feel that I might not get a point across unless I use emotionally loaded words because it seems that a lot of people on the net–a lot of people in general rather–REALLY have short attention spans these days and will simply buzz right over your posts or even a resume and cover letter if you don’t “knock 'em dead”, so to speak. Know what I mean?

Perhaps I shouldn’t have written the words “dumb” and “irritated” in my posts. True. I should have explained myself better.

And again, I have no reason to argue with Dankid. Maybe he’s pesty at worst to some. At best, he just seems like a guy who takes working out seriously and puts a lot of thought into it, all while perhaps being pesty to some people here. That’s not a major offense in my book. The guy’s not malicious. Deep down I’m not either. So I sincerely apologize if my abrasive and sarcastic tone has truly offended people on here and I’ll do away with it. Several people PM me on here about nutrition and exercise and I’ve never missed responding to ONE message on here and FB. I always respond carefully and patiently and with detail.

Accusing me of gaining all of my knowledge on exercise from ONE book and a few columns in Flex years ago authored by Dorian Yates is pretty messed up considering I have over 5 years of professional experience and have academic degrees and a credential in nutrition. I never said or wrote anything on my profession to brag–EVER!–even when trying to actually show Chris Shugart and others what RDs actually do and how they’re trained and educated. What’s wrong with doing that when your profession is being falsely represented and bashed? If people aren’t fond of RDs, so be it. I’m not fond of lawyers or financiers, but I know they serve an important, integral roles in our society and I know darn well if I insult them I’m going to hear it from them. [/quote]

Don’t get yourself too turned around here and back peddling. I have personally always gotten a lot out of your posts. i have also always “got” your sense of humor. Maybe its cause I’m from Jersey. Who knows… The thing is… when you put yourself out there… giving ideas and opinions and starting threads… eventually one is going to blow up in your face. This one did. That’s all it is. It was popular and brought in a lot of people that don’t know you and don’t ordinarily contribute to these threads. Not to mention that it is a controversial topic. The usual shinanigans of Dankid and Trex hopped in as well… plus…an enemy revealed himself. A shit storm started… so what.

Stick by your guns.

Personally… if stronghold would of made a great case as to why you were wrong and we all learned something than this thread could of turned around. Instead he attacked you personaly to silence you because he doesn’t think you should be talking at all. He would of been more sucessful in his attempt to discredit you if he could of done it with ideas. But evidently he couldn’t.

[Professor_X]

[quote]DJS wrote:

Personally… if stronghold would of made a great case as to why you were wrong and we all learned something than this thread could of turned around. Instead he attacked you personaly to silence you because he doesn’t think you should be talking at all. He would of been more sucessful in his attempt to discredit you if he could of done it with ideas. But evidently he couldn’t.[/quote]

…which invalidates stronghold’s entire argument and why this thread went out of control long ago as far as that issue.

[NaturalBeasting]

[quote]DJS wrote:
Don’t get yourself too turned around here and back peddling. I have personally always gotten a lot out of your posts. i have also always “got” your sense of humor. Maybe its cause I’m from Jersey. Who knows… The thing is… when you put yourself out there… giving ideas and opinions and starting threads… eventually one is going to blow up in your face. This one did. That’s all it is. It was popular and brought in a lot of people that don’t know you and don’t ordinarily contribute to these threads. Not to mention that it is a controversial topic. The usual shinanigans of Dankid and Trex hopped in as well… plus…an enemy revealed himself. A shit storm started… so what.

Stick by your guns.

Personally… if stronghold would of made a great case as to why you were wrong and we all learned something than this thread could of turned around. Instead he attacked you personaly to silence you because he doesn’t think you should be talking at all. He would of been more sucessful in his attempt to discredit you if he could of done it with ideas. But evidently he couldn’t.[/quote]

Yeah dude, I’m definitely with DJS. I find your posts really informative. Better than 95% of the crap that gets posted on here. You already know; most of these threads just turn into pointless discussions about nothing. You actually post real stuff. You’re obviously an intelligent guy, and have a lot to offer to the forums as you have quite a bit of experience in bb’ing/lifting/nutrition/etc. Don’t let any of this shit get to you. Stronghold was obviously a dumbass resorting to that ad hominem shit. No one with any brains is gonna think of you any less for anything that went down in this thread. Keep doing what you’re doing man.

[optheta]

ALRIGHT everybody group hug no more hating! /hugs all around

[Loudog75]

[quote]trextacy wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I also ask jagoffs, like I’ve done before, if they know anyone personally in powerlifting and bodybuilding. Have they ever step foot in a hardcore gym that has hardcore powerlifters and bodybuilders, both natural and drug-aided?

I asked Trextacy before if he even knows anyone intimately that uses performance-enhancing drugs, and if so, if they all of the sudden experienced Superman-like powers–increased work capacity, back-breaking poundages, and warp speed recovery–overnight?

Talk to some pros and top amateurs and powerlifters and most will say that steroids are BOTH overrated (they don’t make everything so goddamn easy and dangerous side effects are usually seen in abusers) and underrated (they do work and side effects do occur and should be taken seriously)![/quote]

Been there. Trained around both high level bodybuilders (guys who win state shows on a regular basis and are nationally qualified) and around no less than 6 1000 lb squatters. I’ve side spotted 600 lb raw bench presses, seen 1000 lb low rack pulls, 500 lb floor presses, sets of 50 with 120 lb dumbells. I’ve also trained elsewhere with a nationally ranked natural powerlifter.

If you think steroids are overrated in terms of results or how they change the game, then you’re dumber than I thought. Throw a natural lifter in at WS, Lexen, Supertraining, BIG, any of the big powerlifting gyms in the US and see how long they last before they end up overtrained or injured from the sheer volume of work that those guys endure on a day-to-day basis.

Just because you talked to Dave Tate on the phone once or went to one of Jim’s seminars doesn’t mean you know dick-all about powerlifting or how to train for strength. This is yet again another case of you misrepresenting yourself and your own experience in order to achieve some coveted bro-veteran status.

[/quote]

This. Steroids are a complete game changer. Anyone who thinks otherwise is eitehr dishonest or a fucking retard.

And yes, Brick, like most everyone who lifts I had the friends in college who did, and those who did not. Those who did blew up and stayed lean, ate pizza 24/7 and stayed lean.

That’s how it work 90% of the time.

Just look at some before/after pics ALL OVER the internet of what a solid couple of cycles can do!

Read the “Truth about bulking” article by CT- you can grow about 1 lb of dry muscle per month naturally, yet someone posts a 12 lbs muscle gain in a year (assuming older than 22) and people here mock them. Why? Because their perspective is fucked up because of what is served up as “normal” and reasonable. Reasonable expectations and awareness of limitations are not anti-hardcore. It’s reality.

Yes, people who use drugs have to train hard and with intensity. I don’t take ANYTHING away from guys like Ronnie, Dorian, etc. for their achievements.

I point it out to provide proper perspective for your recreational lifters out there, who, by the way, are the target audience and reason for this site’s existence (to sell supplements to as many people as possible).

No (or very, very few) competing/pro bodybuilders post here- period.

It’s like a bunch of chicks idolizing female porn stars and talking about the right eye creams and thigh exercises and other useless shit…it’s mainly genetics and “unnatural” means.

Oh, and the “intensity” of these guys that juice is largely the RESULT of the drugs.

I would train as hard and intense and as frequently and with as much weight as these guys IF I COULD, but I can’t…because i stay natural.[/quote]

I’m natural - thanks for shitting on my goals. Its people like you who are always busy telling the people that are doing it that it can’t be done.