Why Train for Strength If Size Is Wanted?

Training Bodybuilding
181

Trex:

I find it funny that you use the term “strawman”. It’s fucking hysterical actually! What has worked for bodybuilders and powerlifters–that is CONCRETE FUCKING EVIDENCE of what works for both drug-aided and naturals–is now used as a strawman argument amongst others and I. Very interesting.

Again, I ask: Are you actually an attorney? Wait a sec, you actually might be considering you love the art of using emotion and illusion and word weaving despite concrete evidence. Are you in criminal law? That’s where you’d do best.

182

I also don’t tell people what to do in my popular Bodybuilding Bible thread! However, Trextacy and Dankid are fucking resentful that I put some ideas out there. I don’t know why. They act like I’m telling them or others to stop following routines that they enjoy. If you like the way you train and how you look, then don’t fucking pay attention to that thread. How does that grab ya?

Dankid: I never published a guide. Do you see a guide in bookstores or an e-book authored by me online? I never wrote one.

183

And I’m willing to be dollars to doughnuts that Trextacy actually did try to follow traditional bodybuilding guidelines at one or several times in his life but failed because of other factors not being in place - diet, resources, lifestyle, etc. So he chalks it up that those guidelines are not the ones to follow if drug-free and a recreational lifter.

I personally don’t follow bodybuilding guidelines anymore because I no longer aspire to compete or be as big as possible. I’ve written over and over that I want general fitness now. So what do I do? Follow a program for general fitness.

I now am a member of Flushing Meadows Corona Park and Pool, a city granted non-profit center. It has an ice skating rink, swimming pool, and weight room; so I can do all sorts of training for fitness, weight control, and health.

Am I gonna fucking go on swimming and running forums–there are a heck of a lot of them, especially running ones–read a few books on the subjects, and then start saying shit about top swimmers and runners being on loads of EPO, GH, and Anadrol, how they all train like a bunch of jerkoffs, and that as a registered dietitian I’m not fond of the fact that Michael Phelps eats sugar, trans fat, and flour all day?! NO, I’m not doing that!

184

[quote]toolshed wrote:

[quote]trextacy wrote:
man this is pathetic. yet another thread started to create a strawman and defend the perceived “attack” on the BODYBUILDING FORUM. complete with semantics about who is and who is not a part of the “BODYBUILDING” club, people posting on the forum who don’t have the blessing or permission of those with the mosts posts, etc.

how many “draw a line in the sand” and “stand and be counted” threads do we need…where the sole purpose is to defend the sanctity of a fucking internet forum? my god this is sad.

oh, and plenty of bodybuilders have trained plenty of ways throughout the years. sure, lifting with enough volume and heavy weights is a part of it. holy shit, stop the presses.

they also have insane genetics and have access to solid drugs. this is the reality of “pro bodybuilding”.

stick that into the “Bible” thread. those are the real difference makers- lets be honest (I know, not a popular position because everyone’s hardcore and doesn’t want to acknowledge it).
[/quote]

Yes pro bodybuilding is obviously ridden with drugs, and the participants are the genetic elite.

What does that change? The training plan is still the same. Sure they may be able to train more often, with higher intensity, or whatever. The basic plan is still the same, and will work the same for most people with some adjustments in the factors mentioned. And that plan happens to be, 9/10 times, some basic split which in todays training articles are bashed with no reason.

The point isn’t that people can react differently to the same program, and perhaps even gain more mass from a “strength program” rather than a “hypertrophy program”.

The point is that beginners (this was myself not too long ago too), reading various articles looking for what is the best way to “get swole”, as in bodybuilding simply for the sake of getting muscles, are told by these articles to go do some squat variation 4 times a week while doing little to no isolation work. As if what people have done for ages suddenly won’t work and we now must overcomplicate everything with more mathematical programming involved than my fucking math test last week. I wasted a good year of listening to these articles and spinning my wheels instead of actually asking big people how to get big, and I don’t want the same to happen to other people just starting out.[/quote]

EXACTLY!

Again, it’s funny how those with adequate logical and reasoning ability and more experience understand what the fuck I’m talking about!

185

And to the jagoffs who dislike and criticize this thread and me, why not stay out? If it was such a jackassy thread and not food for thought, how come it turned out to be so popular within HOURS of being posted?

186

[quote]trextacy wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]trextacy wrote:
man this is pathetic. yet another thread started to create a strawman and defend the perceived “attack” on the BODYBUILDING FORUM. complete with semantics about who is and who is not a part of the “BODYBUILDING” club, people posting on the forum who don’t have the blessing or permission of those with the mosts posts, etc.

how many “draw a line in the sand” and “stand and be counted” threads do we need…where the sole purpose is to defend the sanctity of a fucking internet forum? my god this is sad.

oh, and plenty of bodybuilders have trained plenty of ways throughout the years. sure, lifting with enough volume and heavy weights is a part of it. holy shit, stop the presses.

they also have insane genetics and have access to solid drugs. this is the reality of “pro bodybuilding”.

stick that into the “Bible” thread. those are the real difference makers- lets be honest (I know, not a popular position because everyone’s hardcore and doesn’t want to acknowledge it).
[/quote]

?

Wrong thread?

[/quote]

No…everything i said applies to this thread.
[/quote]

Sometimes I just don’t get you. I’m pretty sure you know what I mean, too.

That being said, I hope your training is going well? Haven’t heard from you on that in some time.

187

I also ask jagoffs, like I’ve done before, if they know anyone personally in powerlifting and bodybuilding. Have they ever step foot in a hardcore gym that has hardcore powerlifters and bodybuilders, both natural and drug-aided?

I asked Trextacy before if he even knows anyone intimately that uses performance-enhancing drugs, and if so, if they all of the sudden experienced Superman-like powers–increased work capacity, back-breaking poundages, and warp speed recovery–overnight?

Talk to some pros and top amateurs and powerlifters and most will say that steroids are BOTH overrated (they don’t make everything so goddamn easy and dangerous side effects are usually seen in abusers) and underrated (they do work and side effects do occur and should be taken seriously)!

188

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Lol at the MMA guy talking about beating up people over the internet. This isn’t highschool dude, no one is going to meet you in the parking lot after the final bell.

Fucking priceless.[/quote]

Why don’t you re-read my post? I have never said I’d beat anybody up. Wtf? That would be a rather stupid statement given the fact that I replied to someone in Belgium! Even if they were next door I’d never make such a statement… good God!

Anyway, my only point was the fact that even as athletes we can still train for mass. That doesn’t make us all over the place, like X says. Everybody benefits from different types of training. Big deal.

It doesn’t make you wrong or me right, or viceversa… We all have smething valuable to offer. As different athletes we shouldn’t be excluded from a thread like this, nor should you be excluded from other threads…

189

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I also don’t tell people what to do in my popular Bodybuilding Bible thread! However, Trextacy and Dankid are fucking resentful that I put some ideas out there. I don’t know why. They act like I’m telling them or others to stop following routines that they enjoy. If you like the way you train and how you look, then don’t fucking pay attention to that thread. How does that grab ya?

Dankid: I never published a guide. Do you see a guide in bookstores or an e-book authored by me online? I never wrote one. [/quote]

They’re probably tired of being degraded by Papa Smurf, RD when they are actually making some relatively coherent points (especially Dankid, this is the first time I’ve ever agreed with his posts or thought they were sensible).

Lifting weights is lifting weights. 80% of the lifting population succeeds with the same thing- getting stronger on compound lifts and some isolation work, allowing adequate time for recovery, and consistency- regardless of whether their goal is to be a “bodybuilder” (guy in the gym who wants to look pretty but never compete) or a “powerlifter” (guy in the gym who wants to be strong but never compete).

What gets you big will also get you strong, and vice versa. When you reach an elite level in your chosen sport, then more specific means are necessary but advanced methods (be it Westside, Block Periodization, super-duper-drop sets, rest pause, DC, whatever) aren’t necessary or even appropriate for 80-90% of the lifting population and I would venture to say 95% of the people posting here.

Dankid is actually agreeing with your initial assertions, just taking issue with the way you present them and carry yourself as some sort of veteran on this board. Do they teach reading comprehension somewhere amongst your nutrition coursework and How-to-avoid-an-argument-by-calling-the-other-person-stupid 201?

190

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
And to the jagoffs who dislike and criticize this thread and me, why not stay out? If it was such a jackassy thread and not food for thought, how come it turned out to be so popular within HOURS of being posted? [/quote]

I don’t know why you started this thread here, you had to of known that a bunch of MMA twats would come here and start a fight. You should’ve started it in the T-Cell so you could’ve gotten some intelligent responses.

191

unfortunately tap_u_out has a better physique than most of the guys in the bodybuilding forum

note-I did not say he had a good physique just better than most on here

192

[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
You know what I love about a lot of MMA fighters and dudes like tap-u-out…? It’s the way they all think they are the baddest mother-fuckers on the planet and can say what they want 'cos if anyone disagree’s with them they can ‘beat them down’.

But guess what? I’m actually mature enough to solve my problems without my fists. I really couldn’t give a shit that you do Muay Thai, you’re still a fucking idiot and I’m still going to tell you what I think if you ask.

[quote]tap_u_out wrote:
Btw, sparring 3 times a week is NOTHING. It aint shit! You maybe huge and muscular, but I’d like to see you run through a tough conditioning session and see how well you do. Try keeping your mass. We have a hard time keeping mass not because “we are all over the place” but because it’s the rigours of the sport. And we try to make the most progress in the gym anyway. It’s not easy.[/quote]

See what I mean. Baddass motherfuckers dude. I’d be quiet if I were you Bones, this guy obviously trains harder than you ever have and we simply couldn’t comprehend the toughness of his training
[/quote]

I’ve never said I was a bad motherfucker. When did I say I was going to beat anyone down? Are you retarded? I’m glad you’re mature enough not solve your problems with your fists, neither do I. But if I feel I’m attacked by jackasses like you I’m also going to speak up. Actually my first post to X read that I liked what he wrote. It was cordial. Now all hell breaks loose. Who are you? Do even compete or are you just another wanna BBer…?

193

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I also don’t tell people what to do in my popular Bodybuilding Bible thread! However, Trextacy and Dankid are fucking resentful that I put some ideas out there. I don’t know why. They act like I’m telling them or others to stop following routines that they enjoy. If you like the way you train and how you look, then don’t fucking pay attention to that thread. How does that grab ya?

Dankid: I never published a guide. Do you see a guide in bookstores or an e-book authored by me online? I never wrote one. [/quote]

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD? Im OBVIOUSLY not going to change the way I train because of this thread or your “bible” thread. But my problem is that you are trying to convince everyone else that sees this thread that your “bible” is the guildelines they must follow and that “strength” programs are inferior.

I dont know what you stand to gain from all of this other then self validations. Maybe trolling?

194

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]GuerillaZen wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]LazyElemental wrote:

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
For me, strength increases have always come with a corresponding increase in size, and vice versa. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.[/quote]

Same here, I guess we’re just weird! [/quote]

Or maybe you both completely missed the point… Now, the topic is somewhat misleading, so no biggie… Still, it helps if one reads through the thread before posting.

[/quote]

C_C, with all due respect, I believe it is actually you and Bonez who have missed the point of these gentlemen in this case. They are pretty much agreeing with everyone who is not a moron, but using sarcasm as their catalyst.[/quote]

I hope you’re right.

[/quote]
GZ nailed my intentions, so your hope was not in vain

195

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I also ask jagoffs, like I’ve done before, if they know anyone personally in powerlifting and bodybuilding. Have they ever step foot in a hardcore gym that has hardcore powerlifters and bodybuilders, both natural and drug-aided?

I asked Trextacy before if he even knows anyone intimately that uses performance-enhancing drugs, and if so, if they all of the sudden experienced Superman-like powers–increased work capacity, back-breaking poundages, and warp speed recovery–overnight?

Talk to some pros and top amateurs and powerlifters and most will say that steroids are BOTH overrated (they don’t make everything so goddamn easy and dangerous side effects are usually seen in abusers) and underrated (they do work and side effects do occur and should be taken seriously)![/quote]

Been there. Trained around both high level bodybuilders (guys who win state shows on a regular basis and are nationally qualified) and around no less than 6 1000 lb squatters. I’ve side spotted 600 lb raw bench presses, seen 1000 lb low rack pulls, 500 lb floor presses, sets of 50 with 120 lb dumbells. I’ve also trained elsewhere with a nationally ranked natural powerlifter.

If you think steroids are overrated in terms of results or how they change the game, then you’re dumber than I thought. Throw a natural lifter in at WS, Lexen, Supertraining, BIG, any of the big powerlifting gyms in the US and see how long they last before they end up overtrained or injured from the sheer volume of work that those guys endure on a day-to-day basis.

Just because you talked to Dave Tate on the phone once or went to one of Jim’s seminars doesn’t mean you know dick-all about powerlifting or how to train for strength. This is yet again another case of you misrepresenting yourself and your own experience in order to achieve some coveted bro-veteran status.

196

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I also don’t tell people what to do in my popular Bodybuilding Bible thread! However, Trextacy and Dankid are fucking resentful that I put some ideas out there. I don’t know why. They act like I’m telling them or others to stop following routines that they enjoy. If you like the way you train and how you look, then don’t fucking pay attention to that thread. How does that grab ya?

Dankid: I never published a guide. Do you see a guide in bookstores or an e-book authored by me online? I never wrote one. [/quote]

They’re probably tired of being degraded by Papa Smurf, RD when they are actually making some relatively coherent points (especially Dankid, this is the first time I’ve ever agreed with his posts or thought they were sensible).

Lifting weights is lifting weights. 80% of the lifting population succeeds with the same thing- getting stronger on compound lifts and some isolation work, allowing adequate time for recovery, and consistency- regardless of whether their goal is to be a “bodybuilder” (guy in the gym who wants to look pretty but never compete) or a “powerlifter” (guy in the gym who wants to be strong but never compete).

What gets you big will also get you strong, and vice versa. When you reach an elite level in your chosen sport, then more specific means are necessary but advanced methods (be it Westside, Block Periodization, super-duper-drop sets, rest pause, DC, whatever) aren’t necessary or even appropriate for 80-90% of the lifting population and I would venture to say 95% of the people posting here.

Dankid is actually agreeing with your initial assertions, just taking issue with the way you present them and carry yourself as some sort of veteran on this board. Do they teach reading comprehension somewhere amongst your nutrition coursework and How-to-avoid-an-argument-by-calling-the-other-person-stupid 201?[/quote]

What does my nutrition coursework and RD credential have to do with anything in this thread? I’m not a “veteran” of shit, considering I’ve never formally competed in a sport and never went off to war.

I’m also one of the first people that admits I don’t know everything about everything.

197

Just as I don’t see any reason to bring up your strength coach position in anything I speak to you about unless it was relevant, jerkoff!

198

[quote]Anonymas wrote:
Why are MMA “fighters” such twats on the internet. Every video I see of a bodybuilder on youtube has some smart ass saying “ye hes big but he can’t fight, I’d kick his ass” well no shit sherlock, he DOESNT CARE! If he did, he train to be an MMA fighter.

Myself, I’m a member of a rifle club, and I could kill all these MMA fighters from 100 yards, but I don’t go onto MMA forums and say “Ye he can fight, but I could kill him with a gun”

I weep for humanity sometimes, what Bricknyce said is just complete COMMON SENSE, I honestly dont understand how anyone can be stupid enough to argue with it. If you want to be an MMA fighter, train to be one, if you want to be a powerlifter, train to be one, if you want to be a bodybuilder, train to be one. It isn’t hard??[/quote]

Again… when did I ever say I’d kick anyone’s ass? Plzzz…

199

Okay, the thread is long, I did not read all of it. Sorry, if Iâ??m repeating someone.

The only way Iâ??ve ever heard of someone training for strength independently from size was maximizing lifts for a given weight class. I hope we can agree that this isnâ??t what trainers are pushing people towards. I would assume we are throwing out sports specific stuff.

I also completely disagree that training in a PLing style limits size growth. You can get just as big (and even as muscular) training this way, I think stats on heavyweight plers and strongmen can factually vouch for that. Hell, even sumo wrestlers apparently carry as much muscle as pro bbers. I think itâ??s a terrible myth that the best way to build muscle is to â??train like a bberâ??.

The big difference is form not size. If you train for the strength of specific movements, you will gain muscle, however, that muscle will take the form of whatever adds pounds to the bar. Thatâ??s going to be affected by structure, exercise form, est. So, training for bench strength will add muscle that ads pounds to the bar, independent of aesthetic ideals. You can, in this effect, overlook the training of one of the heads of your bicep and end up with a sub maximal peak. That does not mean that you didnâ??t put size on your arms. Because, you see, a maximized peak is a sport specific training goal in bbing.

If a trainee just wants to pack on size, things like Westside, smolov, 5/3/1, est. are every bit as valid as any â??bbing training templateâ??. I would even argue that for the â??want to look good nakedâ?? crowd who will never be developed enough to distinguish between heads of the bicep itâ??s equally valid. If they actual have the sport specific goals of bbing, then yes, I would assume bbing training would be the best idea, but that is a hell of leap from there to â??train X way for sizeâ??.

But I really think that most of you are grossly overestimating the number of people who are actually dedicated to the actual goals of BBing. I donâ??t know anyone thatâ??s really and truly pursuing the goals of BBing who doesnâ??t train â??like a BBerâ??. I think what most of you guys are talking about are people who both work out and call themselves BBers while actually they â??just want to look good nakedâ??. Which really makes most of this thread a moot point because the people youâ??re discussing donâ??t exist.

200

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I wrote this bible about 4 times on this board over the course of a few years. I’ve copied and pasted it here because…

… I’m daring, maybe even double or triple or quadruple daring, and urging all on this board–newjacks, T-tards, begginers, veterans, armchair experts, editors, writers–to offer anything else useful for getting as big as possible!

We will now have a thread in which we can put an end to the utter ridiculousness that is running wild on this board - the utter insanity of thinking, speaking of, and doing the dumbest shit ever to infect ALL of physical culture. I’ve limited it to bodybuilding here because of the subject at hand and this is the bodybuilding forum. I do recognize that this virus of stupidity and intellectual weakness has infected ALL of the strength training world - not just bodybuilding, but personal training, powerlifting, Olympic lifting, and even the whole regular “keeping in shape” crowd (a group I respect as well).

Give it up, chumps!

Frequency: 1 to 2 times per week per muscle group.
Body split up over 3 to 6 sessions, depending on frequency and number of muscles trainer per session.
2 to 3 muscles trained at each session.
Sets and reps: Warm up and ramp up to 1 to 2 all-out blast sets of 6 to 15 reps - depending on what you grow best from.
2 to 4 exercises per muscle group, including both compound and isolation exercises. Large muscles usually get 2 compound and 1 or 2 isolation exercises and small ones usually get 1 or 2 compound exercises and 1 or 2 isolation exercises.
STEADY-STATE Cardio as need for in- and off-season for 20 to 60 minutes. YEAH, that’s right - NO fucking intervals, kettlebell complexes, sandbag hauling, or anything else that 240+ pound bodybuilders NEVER do!

[quote]

I’ll take this “discussion” even further by looking at your “bible”…

I dont really disagree with any major that you’ve claimed, except for

“Warm up and ramp up to 1 to 2 all-out blast sets of 6 to 15 reps - depending on what you grow best from.” Im not saying this is wrong, or inadequate or anything, im just saying that there are plenty of good programs that dont operate this way.

But your general points can be pretty well accepted for the most part…

AND HERE’S THE KICKER -

531, a “strength routine” pretty much falls in line with everything you’ve claimed in the “bible”.

So whats your deal? If the program was put out by someone other than Wendler, and they claimed that it was a “bodybuilding routine” I bet you’d be sitting here preaching how great it is for bb’ing…

I’ll only bring up 531 (for now), because that is what led you to this thread, and its simple to see the similarities between it and “bodybuilding routines” Other programs, that are percieved as “strength” routines are pretty different from your “bible”, but would still be potentially beneficial for “bodybuilders”. (im thinking Sheiko type stuff being most different)

So now that I have pointed out that 531 is VERY similar to your “bible” you’ll see that it is the MAIN aspects of program that matter, and not all the little things. The main aspects of a program that are required to achieve strenght/size (yes you attain them the same way) are:

Pushing moves
Pulling moves
Squatting/deadlifting moves
Heavy objects for loading
and progression

And if you want to throw isolation/assistant/accessory moves in there for “symmetry” or strengthening weak lings, you can.

So if emulating the pro’s makes sense to you and has worked, then thats great. But you need to come down off your high horse oh great Profet Bricknyc, and realize that NOT EVERYONE IS YOU, and that some people actually may get better “bodybuilding results” doing a “strength routine”.