Different training styles, different goals, different ways of obtaining those goals. There are many different ways of getting somewhere.
Like X said, by just listening to what has worked, and what hasn’t is a good way to learn. Everyone is different, and will use a different “style” to train. Whatever works for you is great, and so is trying new things.
So set yourself an attainable goal, not something ridiculous, and get there, using whatever works for you.
[quote]Anonymas wrote:
Myself, I’m a member of a rifle club, and I could kill all these MMA fighters from 100 yards, but I don’t go onto MMA forums and say “Ye he can fight, but I could kill him with a gun”
??[/quote]
Epicly epic post.
[quote]Anonymas wrote:
Why are MMA “fighters” such twats on the internet. [/quote]
Cause if they talked like that out in the street they would get killed or cry for a referee to stop the fight when somebody breaks their safe MMA ‘rules’ /hijack
[quote]LazyElemental wrote:
[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
For me, strength increases have always come with a corresponding increase in size, and vice versa. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.[/quote]
Same here, I guess we’re just weird! [/quote]
Or maybe you both completely missed the point… Now, the topic is somewhat misleading, so no biggie… Still, it helps if one reads through the thread before posting.
[quote]Anonymas wrote:
Why are MMA “fighters” such twats on the internet. Every video I see of a bodybuilder on youtube has some smart ass saying “ye hes big but he can’t fight, I’d kick his ass” well no shit sherlock, he DOESNT CARE! If he did, he train to be an MMA fighter.
Myself, I’m a member of a rifle club, and I could kill all these MMA fighters from 100 yards, but I don’t go onto MMA forums and say “Ye he can fight, but I could kill him with a gun”
I weep for humanity sometimes, what Bricknyce said is just complete COMMON SENSE, I honestly dont understand how anyone can be stupid enough to argue with it. If you want to be an MMA fighter, train to be one, if you want to be a powerlifter, train to be one, if you want to be a bodybuilder, train to be one. It isn’t hard??[/quote]
I doubt it’s the actual fighters… More like the beginner dudes (who may or may not be taking MMA lessons or at best have done a bit of amateur fighting, if even) turn into arm-chair experts on everything as soon as they get their hands on a keyboard.
You get them in bbing and just about every other activity.
There are people who have never even seen a formula one race car from the inside, yet they sit at their favorite table at the bar with their buddies and go on about how Michael Schumacher (etc) should have done this or that in the latest race… Or guys who don’t play competitive soccer and have never even played against experienced players, yet talk out of their asses about how today’s soccer stars can’t play worth shit and whatnot.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
If you are training with everything you’ve got, and I mean going at it with passion, determination, and iron will that it takes to succeed in anything in life, you WILL get bigger AND stronger no matter the rep range.
However, if you fuck around and just hit the reps on your “chart” or just finish the sets you set out to do, you will be smaller and weaker and will then start thinking philosophically about weight training and probably end up posting some stupid ass questions on one of our boards.
Bottom line is that succeeding is a personality trait more than a program. [/quote]
Good call I think you are exactly right on that one. The program wont matter if you have no heart in it
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Most of you guys don’t even seem to understand what this thread really is about… Or the real difference between bodybuilding and many “strength” routines… Has Brick ever said you can’t get bigger on Starting Strength or some such program?
If my routine looks something like:
-Squat
-Bench
-Deadlift
-Pullups
3-5 times a week…
And I get to 250 lbs…
I’m not going to look like a bodybuilder. Not even remotely. My torso may look reasonably thick, my thighs may be quite large, my shoulders thick when viewed from the side… My biceps may be there to a degree if I a) have great bi genetics and/or b) my rowing technique sucks balls…
But the guy doing a regular bbing split, training his shoulders and traps twice a week and everything else once for a year or two (and then train his back twice a week for a year, then his arms or whatever) will look way bigger in non-tight clothes at the same weight…
His legs may be somewhat smaller/squat and DL lower, but chances are he is going to have a much thicker and wider shoulder girdle/ be much thicker and wider in whatever area he specialized in long-term compared to the guy who either tried to train everything equally or just focused on the big three and little else…
Guys like Mike Wolfe (bench specialist) aren’t bodybuilders but still have wide and thick shoulders and thick traps and huge tris (and thus a wider look)… Because they do a lot of lateral, trap and rear delt and tri work/specialize/have specialized in those areas in order to bring up their bench. For years on end.
Most of those bodybuilder-esque bench spec guys also train their bis, brachialis and brachioradialis heavy and with several exercises because those are far from unimportant in the bench press (and avoiding injury/pain).
It’s no surprise that they look (upper body -wise anyway, lower depends) like bodybuilders (who have taken the off-season a bit too far perhaps, but that’s all diet and maybe maximizing leverages… Mendelson seems to be leaner in general, or used to be).
The powerlifters who look very much like bodybuilders (leanness doesn’t matter here, those who carry too much fat could diet it off if they wanted to after all, I’m talking proportions/balance only), like Matt Kroc and
Mike Ruggeria and even Dave Tate all train or have trained, for long periods of time, very similar to bodybuilders in terms of how they set up their routines/splits, exercise selection and not ignoring certain bodyparts
Look at Mike’s routine used to go from 190 or so to 300 over at a certain other forum housing the official DC doggpound…
Mike is a mod there, handle is liftin’heavy or so… You can find the routine in the PL subforum over there.
It’s basically a bbing routine with a bit more low-rep work for the big three, though condensed to fewer days per week… Longer sessions (would be too long for me), but it’s still basically a bodybuilding routine and he looked like a bodybuilder as a result…
Switched to 4 days per week later at westside I think.
Dave did not really look like that (pic in recent arm article I think, where he fastens his weight-belt), proportion-wise, before he started working with Justin Harris… He got lean first with Berardi I think, but looked way less impressive.
He was already big, but did not quite have the bodybuilder look yet, proportion-wise (arms, biceps especially etc)…
Still, he’s always done plenty of direct tri work because he tore his chest many times and had to change his bench technique as a result… Plus shoulder work when he could (injuries) and yeah, some bicep work… Hence him looking more bodybuilder-ish than most other powerlifters who just stick to sheiko with little assistance work, for example, or even bodybuilders who don’t focus too much on shoulder with etc during their training career.
Or look at Professor X’s old pictures from when he was 255 and 270… Vs. the more recent t-cell pics at 290+… He didn’t just get bigger overall (which, by itself, would not have helped his proportions… He would simply be a bigger version of his 255lb self), he put major emphasis on his shoulder girdle area and thus has much wider shoulders now…
Coupled with previous emphasis on the upper chest and great traps this gives him a wide and powerful look which is what makes people look huge even in non tight clothes… Someone not focusing on these areas and without the shoulder genetics to make up for that lack of specialization will look far less like a bodybuilder at the same weight.
And once again: 5/3/1 is not a program. It is a set/rep and progression scheme.
Someone doing 5/3/1 on the incline bench may do this during 5/5/5+ week:
-135 x 12 (warm-up)
-225 x 8 (warm-up)
-295 x 5
-342.5 x 5
-385 x 9 (top set, you want 5 reps minimum but ultimately should go for as many good reps as you can get unless you feel too drained. As suggested by Wendler).
Speed would be explosive positives (or trying to, anyway) and controlled negatives (no need to be slow, but you need to be in control of the weight and not just let it drop like a stone).
The other weeks follow a similar format with different weights but it’s ultimately (except for deload week) this:
Ramp up to a top set, on last set get as many good reps as you can.
Now what would Dorian Yates have done (I don’t remember his exact numbers, ask Brick about those if you care for some reason)?
-135x10
-225x8
-315x6
-345x3 (maybe, I dunno… It’s what I’d do, or maybe just a double)
-385x10 ← top set.
Again, explosive (trying to, anyway) positives and controlled (in yates case for some exercises semi-slow) negatives. Bodybuilders going for generally higher reps like Branch (135x15, 225x12, 315x20 or was it 30? seated military for example) will usually go with faster negatives though.
So. Does this look familiar?
Oh no! IT’S ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE 5/3/1 SCHEME, EXCEPT THAT YATES DOES NOT CYCLE HIS WEIGHTS FROM WORKOUT TO WORKOUT! Gee…
The main difference between a yates routine and most 5/3/1 templates is how the “assistance” work is structured… Many 5/3/1 assistance templates feature fairly light weights with exact percentages for multiple sets of higher reps… (not all, and I still think it’s best to make up your own assistance template whether you’re a powerlifter or bodybuilder using 5/3/1) and there are usually less days of training per week/less exercises per muscle-group etc.
As I mentioned somewhere at the beginning of this thread, you can just do 5/3/1 for your main lifts on a totally normal bodybuilding routine… And ramp up to 1-2 all out sets on your other exercises… Hell, maybe you could even do 5/3/1 on all exercises (using the 10% jump table, not the one including 5% jumps, but that’s just imo)… Only reason I’ve never tried is because that’s too much of a bother to calculate all the weights, and I don’t really need to calculate them anyway.
But the point is: Wendler 5/3/1 scheme = very, very similar to what many bodybuilders do for almost all their exercises.
So as a bodybuilder I can use 5/3/1 just fine. No problem. It’s just that my routine and exercise selection should probably not look like the assistance templates in Wendler’s book, but like a regular bbing routine of some kind.
What was I trying to say, anyway? …
[/quote]
CC that was a logical attempt at salvaging this thread, BUT you are wrong about a few things in regards to what Brick is getting at.
He made this thread in response to the 531 for hypertrophy thread.
Now I agree, if ALL you do is Squat, Bench, deadlift, Press, then you are PROBABLY not going to look at all like a bodybuilder. BUT, in 531 and most strength programs for that matter, compound movements are not the whole program.
The 531 program for example has plenty of room for accessory exercises. These can all be isolation exercises if you want them to be. (Upright rows, L-raises, triceps, curls, calves, etc, etc.)
Im sure it is perfectly possible that two members on this forum are training with all the same exercises and one is doing a “strength” routine, while the other is doing a “bodbuilding” routine.
What everyone is STILL missing, is that training at lower levels (beginner, intermediate, and even advanced) is VERY different than training at the Elite level for a given sport. At these lower levels, training does not have to be much different between the two styles.
For people that AREN’T GOING TO COMPETE, this argument is a waste of time. If someone just wants to get really strong at bench, deadlift, and squat, ARE THEY A POWERLIFTER? Cant they achieve these goals perfectly well doing any program whether it be strength or bodybuilding as long as it contains those three lifts. The same is true in reverse about most here that are not bodybuilders, but want to BUILD better bodies.
Sure, training with 531 or another strength program probably will not get your body to the point where you are an elite bodybuilder. Maybe it will, I dont know. And maybe it isn’t the most “efficient” way to get there. But since most of us aren’t anywhere near that level, WHO CARES.
I highly doubt that down the road someone is going to decide to compete, and say “man I wish when I was younger I wouldn’t have done 531 and would have followed Bricks guide. All this extra strength is just a waste”. LOLOL
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]LazyElemental wrote:
[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
For me, strength increases have always come with a corresponding increase in size, and vice versa. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.[/quote]
Same here, I guess we’re just weird! [/quote]
Or maybe you both completely missed the point… Now, the topic is somewhat misleading, so no biggie… Still, it helps if one reads through the thread before posting.
[/quote]
AMEN!
This thread just keeps getting better and better. Please someone mention Crossfit. Please, I’m begging you!
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Bottom line is that succeeding is a personality trait more than a program. [/quote]
Hey TC -
There’s a candidate for “Strong Words” right there from one of T-Nation’s own.
[quote]Anonymas wrote:
Why are MMA “fighters” such twats on the internet. Every video I see of a bodybuilder on youtube has some smart ass saying “ye hes big but he can’t fight, I’d kick his ass” well no shit sherlock, he DOESNT CARE! If he did, he train to be an MMA fighter.
Myself, I’m a member of a rifle club, and I could kill all these MMA fighters from 100 yards, but I don’t go onto MMA forums and say “Ye he can fight, but I could kill him with a gun”
I weep for humanity sometimes, what Bricknyce said is just complete COMMON SENSE, I honestly dont understand how anyone can be stupid enough to argue with it. If you want to be an MMA fighter, train to be one, if you want to be a powerlifter, train to be one, if you want to be a bodybuilder, train to be one. It isn’t hard??[/quote]
Haha, that’s funny 
Should this thread technically be called:
“why train for strength when you want to look like a bodybuilder?”
It would clear things up because we have people saying that a powerlifting routine can make someone bigger…but that’s not the point.
Even if the gains were the same as “bodybuilding” gains (maybe just with a slight modification of the rep scheme), the physique would be unbalanced (for most). Training for size doesn’t just mean changing the rep range/frequency/intensity - it involves bringing more muscles up to size. Which usually means more exercises.
Then we have ones saying that because you don’t compete, balance isn’t important…which is just silly. How good does a huge ass and legs look with in-proportionate upper body? How good does a huge lower chest and “small” upper chest look? How good does a big body with in-proportionate arms look? The list goes on…You can’t just say, “oh, just do what works for you”, because most bodybuilding programs have the same in common - that is, more exercise selection to “hit” different muscles.
This thread was started because newbies (who want to bodybuild…that’s the key word here) often go along with “the next best thing in training” because some article/book/guru said so, when it’s not even directed for just bodybuilding. It’s not a insult towards athletes etc who want to put on some weight as part of their sport…which funny enough, ISN’T BODYBUILDING! LOL
man this is pathetic. yet another thread started to create a strawman and defend the perceived “attack” on the BODYBUILDING FORUM. complete with semantics about who is and who is not a part of the “BODYBUILDING” club, people posting on the forum who don’t have the blessing or permission of those with the mosts posts, etc.
how many “draw a line in the sand” and “stand and be counted” threads do we need…where the sole purpose is to defend the sanctity of a fucking internet forum? my god this is sad.
oh, and plenty of bodybuilders have trained plenty of ways throughout the years. sure, lifting with enough volume and heavy weights is a part of it. holy shit, stop the presses.
they also have insane genetics and have access to solid drugs. this is the reality of “pro bodybuilding”.
stick that into the “Bible” thread. those are the real difference makers- lets be honest (I know, not a popular position because everyone’s hardcore and doesn’t want to acknowledge it).
[quote]Anonymas wrote:
Why are MMA “fighters” such twats on the internet. Every video I see of a bodybuilder on youtube has some smart ass saying “ye hes big but he can’t fight, I’d kick his ass” well no shit sherlock, he DOESNT CARE! If he did, he train to be an MMA fighter.
Myself, I’m a member of a rifle club, and I could kill all these MMA fighters from 100 yards, but I don’t go onto MMA forums and say “Ye he can fight, but I could kill him with a gun”
[/quote]
Haha, I find myself guilty of doing that.
They are two guys in my class who train Jiu-Jiutsu, and thus discuss the sport in terms I obviously don’t understand.
When they are discussing which submission is best in that situation or whatever, I always interrupt the conversation with something like “You know the best submission ever? Point a gun towards your opponents head and pull the trigger”.
It’s all good fun.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]LazyElemental wrote:
[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
For me, strength increases have always come with a corresponding increase in size, and vice versa. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.[/quote]
Same here, I guess we’re just weird! [/quote]
Or maybe you both completely missed the point… Now, the topic is somewhat misleading, so no biggie… Still, it helps if one reads through the thread before posting.
[/quote]
C_C, with all due respect, I believe it is actually you and Bonez who have missed the point of these gentlemen in this case. They are pretty much agreeing with everyone who is not a moron, but using sarcasm as their catalyst.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Bottom line is that succeeding is a personality trait more than a program. [/quote]
Agree 100%. After years of following textbook programs and listening to the “gurus” on this board, I finally realized that it’s about intensity, commitment, and continual progress more than about finding the magic workout routine that will turn you into a bodybuilding god. Do what works for YOU, and forget about the board warriors that think they know you better than you know yourself.
People should spend less time debating whether they are a powerlifter, a bodybuilder, or a MMA competitor and more time actually working toward and achieving their fitness goals.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
man this is pathetic. yet another thread started to create a strawman and defend the perceived “attack” on the BODYBUILDING FORUM. complete with semantics about who is and who is not a part of the “BODYBUILDING” club, people posting on the forum who don’t have the blessing or permission of those with the mosts posts, etc.
how many “draw a line in the sand” and “stand and be counted” threads do we need…where the sole purpose is to defend the sanctity of a fucking internet forum? my god this is sad.
oh, and plenty of bodybuilders have trained plenty of ways throughout the years. sure, lifting with enough volume and heavy weights is a part of it. holy shit, stop the presses.
they also have insane genetics and have access to solid drugs. this is the reality of “pro bodybuilding”.
stick that into the “Bible” thread. those are the real difference makers- lets be honest (I know, not a popular position because everyone’s hardcore and doesn’t want to acknowledge it).
[/quote]
?
Wrong thread?
[quote]GuerillaZen wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]LazyElemental wrote:
[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
For me, strength increases have always come with a corresponding increase in size, and vice versa. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.[/quote]
Same here, I guess we’re just weird! [/quote]
Or maybe you both completely missed the point… Now, the topic is somewhat misleading, so no biggie… Still, it helps if one reads through the thread before posting.
[/quote]
C_C, with all due respect, I believe it is actually you and Bonez who have missed the point of these gentlemen in this case. They are pretty much agreeing with everyone who is not a moron, but using sarcasm as their catalyst.[/quote]
I hope you’re right.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]trextacy wrote:
man this is pathetic. yet another thread started to create a strawman and defend the perceived “attack” on the BODYBUILDING FORUM. complete with semantics about who is and who is not a part of the “BODYBUILDING” club, people posting on the forum who don’t have the blessing or permission of those with the mosts posts, etc.
how many “draw a line in the sand” and “stand and be counted” threads do we need…where the sole purpose is to defend the sanctity of a fucking internet forum? my god this is sad.
oh, and plenty of bodybuilders have trained plenty of ways throughout the years. sure, lifting with enough volume and heavy weights is a part of it. holy shit, stop the presses.
they also have insane genetics and have access to solid drugs. this is the reality of “pro bodybuilding”.
stick that into the “Bible” thread. those are the real difference makers- lets be honest (I know, not a popular position because everyone’s hardcore and doesn’t want to acknowledge it).
[/quote]
?
Wrong thread?
[/quote]
No…everything i said applies to this thread.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
man this is pathetic. yet another thread started to create a strawman and defend the perceived “attack” on the BODYBUILDING FORUM. complete with semantics about who is and who is not a part of the “BODYBUILDING” club, people posting on the forum who don’t have the blessing or permission of those with the mosts posts, etc.
how many “draw a line in the sand” and “stand and be counted” threads do we need…where the sole purpose is to defend the sanctity of a fucking internet forum? my god this is sad.
oh, and plenty of bodybuilders have trained plenty of ways throughout the years. sure, lifting with enough volume and heavy weights is a part of it. holy shit, stop the presses.
they also have insane genetics and have access to solid drugs. this is the reality of “pro bodybuilding”.
stick that into the “Bible” thread. those are the real difference makers- lets be honest (I know, not a popular position because everyone’s hardcore and doesn’t want to acknowledge it).
[/quote]
Yes pro bodybuilding is obviously ridden with drugs, and the participants are the genetic elite.
What does that change? The training plan is still the same. Sure they may be able to train more often, with higher intensity, or whatever. The basic plan is still the same, and will work the same for most people with some adjustments in the factors mentioned. And that plan happens to be, 9/10 times, some basic split which in todays training articles are bashed with no reason.
The point isn’t that people can react differently to the same program, and perhaps even gain more mass from a “strength program” rather than a “hypertrophy program”. The point is that beginners (this was myself not too long ago too), reading various articles looking for what is the best way to “get swole”, as in bodybuilding simply for the sake of getting muscles, are told by these articles to go do some squat variation 4 times a week while doing little to no isolation work. As if what people have done for ages suddenly won’t work and we now must overcomplicate everything with more mathematical programming involved than my fucking math test last week. I wasted a good year of listening to these articles and spinning my wheels instead of actually asking big people how to get big, and I don’t want the same to happen to other people just starting out.
[quote]trextacy wrote:
man this is pathetic. yet another thread started to create a strawman and defend the perceived “attack” on the BODYBUILDING FORUM. complete with semantics about who is and who is not a part of the “BODYBUILDING” club, people posting on the forum who don’t have the blessing or permission of those with the mosts posts, etc.
how many “draw a line in the sand” and “stand and be counted” threads do we need…where the sole purpose is to defend the sanctity of a fucking internet forum? my god this is sad.
oh, and plenty of bodybuilders have trained plenty of ways throughout the years. sure, lifting with enough volume and heavy weights is a part of it. holy shit, stop the presses.
they also have insane genetics and have access to solid drugs. this is the reality of “pro bodybuilding”.
stick that into the “Bible” thread. those are the real difference makers- lets be honest (I know, not a popular position because everyone’s hardcore and doesn’t want to acknowledge it).
[/quote]
You missed the whole fucking point of my thread!
And isn’t it funny how those who are far more experienced than you understand what the fuck I’m talking about!
I never touched a drug in my life and made gains far better than the average guy in a gym! Was I an elite powerlifter or bodybuilder? NO! Never was - never will be!
And by the way, the guidelines I wrote in my Bible thread were what I used–drug free!–just like the rest of the top NATURAL bodybuilders in this world.