Why Stay Natural?

Training
64

[quote]therajraj wrote:
To answer everyone’s question, I’m 50/50. I’ve been researching this idea for several weeks, found answers for most questions and started this thread to see if I had missed anything.
[/quote]

Figured that was your basic angle: not to convince everyone else that they should use AAS, but to stir up a quality discussion of the pros and cons for your own information, and it looks like you got that. Kudos to all involved for keeping the discussion civil and intelligent.

I’ll never use AAS - briefly, because I don’t want to mess with my body’s natural chemistry, don’t want to deal with legal issues, and want to feel like all strength & conditioning achievements of mine are things that I achieved “myself” - but nor am I going to tell others that they can’t or shouldn’t (unless they are doing so in an arena where it is prohibited).

65

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I also knew on this board, a site run by a company that sells high end bodybuilding supplements mostly pro-natural types would chime in.

[/quote]

You got responses from pro-natural guys because you named the thread ‘Why Stay Natural’, not because the site sells supplements. Not that it matters, but this should be obvious.

Also wanted to mention that if I lived in a different country, I would probably be on the other side of the fence. Since my main concerns are legal and family related, More lenient laws would likely clear up both issues for me. If it were legal to possess steroids here, I doubt my wife would be so opposed to the idea. I’m a firm believer that steroids should be re-classified in the US, and I actually think it will happen eventually.

66

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]

Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.[/quote]

All gains are not lost. AAS and GH will create structural differences that are for life and add size that won’t leave unless you diet like an idiot off AAS. Seen way to many first hand pct and stay in decent shape except 10lbs bigger than before cycle and they were big to start with.

Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]
I think it goes without saying that the effects of GH are permanent rofl. That’s not usually a good thing though.

Anyway, I don’t know the kind of time frame you’re looking at, but if they did a cycle and then spent, say 2 years off, are you telling me they actually kept anything from that? They may be bigger and stronger from 2 years of training, but I doubt they kept anything. The amount of muscle your body will hold is dependent on your test levels.

And they ALWAYS cause some kind of sterility. Maybe you meant to include the word “permanent” in your statement? I never said I was worried about being permanently sterile, I said I didn’t want to deal with the issues of having to reverse the temporary sterility that is extremely common. For some men it takes up to 2 years to get back to normal.[/quote]

Are you referring to the “pumped up” look people have when on AAS when you talk about losing gains? Because that will definitely disappear as soon as whatever stuff they have been taking clears their systems. Which is why bigger guys may even lose up to 20lbs after a cycle.

From experience, muscular gains are retainable as long as one is not at his genetic peak yet.
[/quote]
I’m talking about actual strength and muscle gains. I won’t get into “genetic peak”, but if someone was like 140lbs when he started taking steroids, first of all he’s an idiot, and second of all, yes he will probably keep a lot of those gains, because he wasn’t anywhere close to what he could have achieved naturally.

The OP asked about people who have been training for years though. If you’re 5’9", relatively lean, and somewhere around 200lbs, you’re not going to get that much bigger naturally. You just aren’t. And whatever else you get unnaturally will go away once you stop.

Ryan Kennelly is 6’2" and was 330+ at his peak. After only a year completely off he had shrunk down to like 220… Is that an extreme example? Yes obviously. Ryan was taking shit loads of gear. But that is the sort of thing that happens regardless. Your body cannot magically sustain the same level of muscle and strength indefinitely at a lower hormone level. That’s just not how mammalian biology works.

67

[quote]Intangible wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
To answer everyone’s question, I’m 50/50. I’ve been researching this idea for several weeks, found answers for most questions and started this thread to see if I had missed anything.

I also knew on this board, a site run by a company that sells high end bodybuilding supplements mostly pro-natural types would chime in. If everyone were unanimously against drugs, it wouldn’t make for a productive discussion.

I’m personally still deciding for the simple fact that I have a family history of high triglycerides and high blood pressure. My dads on multiple meds (he’s skinny) and his brother has had a heart attack. While my blood results came back fine, I’m still apprehensive for this reason.

On the hair loss side, I’m not particularly worried. Both my grandfathers had full heads of hair on their death bed so I don’t think I have the MPB gene. Nor am I worried about legal implications as the law in Canada states one can be in possession of steroids so long as they are in quantities for personal use. Furthermore, if a parcel gets seized at customs, nothing happens legally other than getting a letter informing you of this fact. For acne, I’ve never really had it, not even as a teen. Maybe 1 or 2 pimples all throughout highschool that disappeared after only a few days.

Lastly, on the sterility side, after talking and looking around, for most men it’s temporary. Yes you might have wait 3 months - 2 years before you sperm produces, but so what? Any girl who is afforded the luxury of carrying my seed to term will understand. On top of that, modern medicine is jumping leaps and bounds almost on a daily basis. If a fertility specialist can successfully plant life into the cold-dead womb of a 40 year old woman, I’m sure he’ll be able to get my jigger sputtering in no time.

There’s lots of responses, but plenty of overlap. Did I miss anything?

[/quote]

I would be nervous with a family history like that. Will you do anymore tests? Also will you get a physician to monitor you on your cycle if you do decide?[/quote]

Not sure what you had in mind with respect to the first question.

Yes to your second question. I have a doc that will monitor me if I so decide to use.

68

On another note I am strangely grateful that steroids are illegal after reading this thread. It used to piss me off, but after seeing how many of you are only natty because of the legality of it, now I’m thankful that they are; otherwise I’d probably be like the smallest, weakest person on here lol.

Steroids being illegal doesn’t even register on my list of reasons not to do them. It’s a stupid, victimless crime with a drug that is, in many ways, less harmful that the vast majority of legal drugs and potentially a massive quality of life enhancement. I don’t really care about competing in untested feds or anything either. Even there a lot of times guys are just cycled off.

I’ve never liked bitching about nattys having to compete against assisted guys. If you wanna beat them, fucking grab a needle. That’s what they had to do. In a lot of ways it is a sacrifice they were willing to make that you weren’t, so they deserve the win.

69

raj, how old are you if you don’t mind me asking?

70

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]

Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.[/quote]

All gains are not lost. AAS and GH will create structural differences that are for life and add size that won’t leave unless you diet like an idiot off AAS. Seen way to many first hand pct and stay in decent shape except 10lbs bigger than before cycle and they were big to start with.

Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]
I think it goes without saying that the effects of GH are permanent rofl. That’s not usually a good thing though.

Anyway, I don’t know the kind of time frame you’re looking at, but if they did a cycle and then spent, say 2 years off, are you telling me they actually kept anything from that? They may be bigger and stronger from 2 years of training, but I doubt they kept anything. The amount of muscle your body will hold is dependent on your test levels.

And they ALWAYS cause some kind of sterility. Maybe you meant to include the word “permanent” in your statement? I never said I was worried about being permanently sterile, I said I didn’t want to deal with the issues of having to reverse the temporary sterility that is extremely common. For some men it takes up to 2 years to get back to normal.[/quote]

Are you referring to the “pumped up” look people have when on AAS when you talk about losing gains? Because that will definitely disappear as soon as whatever stuff they have been taking clears their systems. Which is why bigger guys may even lose up to 20lbs after a cycle.

From experience, muscular gains are retainable as long as one is not at his genetic peak yet.
[/quote]
I’m talking about actual strength and muscle gains. I won’t get into “genetic peak”, but if someone was like 140lbs when he started taking steroids, first of all he’s an idiot, and second of all, yes he will probably keep a lot of those gains, because he wasn’t anywhere close to what he could have achieved naturally.

The OP asked about people who have been training for years though. If you’re 5’9", relatively lean, and somewhere around 200lbs, you’re not going to get that much bigger naturally. You just aren’t. And whatever else you get unnaturally will go away once you stop.

Ryan Kennelly is 6’2" and was 330+ at his peak. After only a year completely off he had shrunk down to like 220… Is that an extreme example? Yes obviously. Ryan was taking shit loads of gear. But that is the sort of thing that happens regardless. Your body cannot magically sustain the same level of muscle and strength indefinitely at a lower hormone level. That’s just not how mammalian biology works.[/quote]

In defense of Kennelly’s shrunken state, he might not have access to weights or even care to use 'em. Remember reading an interview with former IFBB pro Craig Titus after he got out of prison where he saod he lost something like 50 pounds over a few months and when asked if he trained while in his verbatim response was “No. There was no point.” Dude was so “addicted” to everything the juice had to offer he literally would not lift while “off”. That’s crazy to me.

71

[quote]csulli wrote:
raj, how old are you if you don’t mind me asking?[/quote]

28

72

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Remember reading an interview with former IFBB pro Craig Titus after he got out of prison where he saod he lost something like 50 pounds over a few months and when asked if he trained while in his verbatim response was “No. There was no point.” Dude was so “addicted” to everything the juice had to offer he literally would not lift while “off”. That’s crazy to me.[/quote]
Wow. I can totally see that happening though.

73

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
In defense of Kennelly’s shrunken state, he might not have access to weights or even care to use 'em. Remember reading an interview with former IFBB pro Craig Titus after he got out of prison where he saod he lost something like 50 pounds over a few months and when asked if he trained while in his verbatim response was “No. There was no point.” Dude was so “addicted” to everything the juice had to offer he literally would not lift while “off”. That’s crazy to me.[/quote]

I’ve seen that attitude before. When Dave Palumbo was incarcerated for selling bad GH, he documented the experience, detailing how he was able to eat and train given the facilities. Despite losing a very considerable amount of size, the guy still walked out (I forget how many months later) looking fairly jacked by normal standards.

S

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1200×1200 293 KB

Here’s an interesting pic not completely related.

Here’s a guy who lifted for years on drugs, blasted and cruised all year round (for those unfamiliar with the lingo thats taking a low dose between cycles)and then stopped juicing, lifting and eating like a bodybuilder for 7 months straight.

Went from 205 to 185 during that period.

75

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Myosin wrote:
Enough mental energy is used on kcals, marcos, rep schemes, mealing planning etc. Add sources, supplies, money, lipids profiles, blood pressure, organ stress, estrogen rebound, gyno, surgery etc and its just too much to worry about (I suppose it is alot easier if you don’t care).[/quote]

For me I see this differently. You know when you first get into bodybuilding and even the tiniest morsel of knowledge with respect to training, diet or supplementation is so exciting and you can’t wait to try it?

Well the past few weeks, learning about steroids has done the same for me… anyways that just how I see it. Definitely not a bother but of course, I don’t compete.

[/quote]

I hear you. I do indeed miss that exciting feeling with a bodybuilding world full of possiblities. Unfortunately looking back, that feeling was due to a large part of ignorance. With time and experience, you become a little wiser and less easy to excite or fool. I would be careful with such emotions when it comes to something like this.

76

[quote]csulli wrote:
On another note I am strangely grateful that steroids are illegal after reading this thread. It used to piss me off, but after seeing how many of you are only natty because of the legality of it, now I’m thankful that they are; otherwise I’d probably be like the smallest, weakest person on here lol.

Steroids being illegal doesn’t even register on my list of reasons not to do them. It’s a stupid, victimless crime with a drug that is, in many ways, less harmful that the vast majority of legal drugs and potentially a massive quality of life enhancement. I don’t really care about competing in untested feds or anything either. Even there a lot of times guys are just cycled off.

I’ve never liked bitching about nattys having to compete against assisted guys. If you wanna beat them, fucking grab a needle. That’s what they had to do. In a lot of ways it is a sacrifice they were willing to make that you weren’t, so they deserve the win.[/quote]

Yeah, the legality was never really an issue. Back before my long layoff, when I was getting pretty serious, I had easy access to them from my roommate and also from my mentor. They never really pushed me one way or the other but did offer to help me out with usage and acquiring them if I decided to go that route. However, for me it was just the fact that I never really felt like it was something I wanted to do just because I wasn’t competing and this was a hobby. There was no point in spending the money or risking any adverse effects when there was no real reward for the risk.

Also, I have kind of always looked at steroids as the next step whenever you get everything: diet, training, and rest on point and have reached the limit of your natural genetic potential. I never really felt like I had gotten to that limit so I never saw the need.

77

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
raj, how old are you if you don’t mind me asking?[/quote]

28[/quote]
Hmm… If you were older I’d tell you to just fuckin dive in.

What were you thinking about doing? Just low-dosing test? Some cycles?

78

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

(2) Would have a hard time trusting something sold out of the trunk of a car. I could make my own, like some folks here do, but then again I’d have to trust myself to do it right…

[/quote]

If you do some research and looking around, you’ll find it’s pretty easy to acquire good quality.

[/quote]

Ya, I guess…

I donno, I prefer my drugs approved by the FDA, however, repeat customers are good for business, lol, so I’m sure quality suppliers are out there. [/quote]

Yea the FDA seem legit.

79

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
raj, how old are you if you don’t mind me asking?[/quote]

28[/quote]
Hmm… If you were older I’d tell you to just fuckin dive in.

What were you thinking about doing? Just low-dosing test? Some cycles?[/quote]

a very tame cycle, some test and a mild oral like Anavar.

80

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]

Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.[/quote]

All gains are not lost. AAS and GH will create structural differences that are for life and add size that won’t leave unless you diet like an idiot off AAS. Seen way to many first hand pct and stay in decent shape except 10lbs bigger than before cycle and they were big to start with.

Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]
I think it goes without saying that the effects of GH are permanent rofl. That’s not usually a good thing though.

Anyway, I don’t know the kind of time frame you’re looking at, but if they did a cycle and then spent, say 2 years off, are you telling me they actually kept anything from that? They may be bigger and stronger from 2 years of training, but I doubt they kept anything. The amount of muscle your body will hold is dependent on your test levels.

And they ALWAYS cause some kind of sterility. Maybe you meant to include the word “permanent” in your statement? I never said I was worried about being permanently sterile, I said I didn’t want to deal with the issues of having to reverse the temporary sterility that is extremely common. For some men it takes up to 2 years to get back to normal.[/quote]

Are you referring to the “pumped up” look people have when on AAS when you talk about losing gains? Because that will definitely disappear as soon as whatever stuff they have been taking clears their systems. Which is why bigger guys may even lose up to 20lbs after a cycle.

From experience, muscular gains are retainable as long as one is not at his genetic peak yet.
[/quote]
I’m talking about actual strength and muscle gains. I won’t get into “genetic peak”, but if someone was like 140lbs when he started taking steroids, first of all he’s an idiot, and second of all, yes he will probably keep a lot of those gains, because he wasn’t anywhere close to what he could have achieved naturally.

The OP asked about people who have been training for years though. If you’re 5’9", relatively lean, and somewhere around 200lbs, you’re not going to get that much bigger naturally. You just aren’t. And whatever else you get unnaturally will go away once you stop.

Ryan Kennelly is 6’2" and was 330+ at his peak. After only a year completely off he had shrunk down to like 220… Is that an extreme example? Yes obviously. Ryan was taking shit loads of gear. But that is the sort of thing that happens regardless. Your body cannot magically sustain the same level of muscle and strength indefinitely at a lower hormone level. That’s just not how mammalian biology works.[/quote]

Understood. The 140lbs idiots are actually the ones most likely to be unable to maintain their gains though, and i think it goes without saying that those above 200lbs at 5’9 are going to shrink back to what would be naturally attainable.

But i get your point.

81

[quote]furo wrote:

For me personally (although it’s not evident, I have been training properly for over 5 years lol) it all comes down to independence - much the same as what csulli wrote in his initial post. I live this lifestyle because I want to turn my body into a more capable tool, and that means I want to have the ability to thrive in less than optimal conditions, I don’t want to literally require supra-optimal conditions (probably made that word up, but you get my point). To use csulli’s example: I want to be able to survive if I’m stranded from civilisation in any way, and I feel that requiring an external substance to keep going means you are more vulnerable, not less. I want a body that is not only strong, but is also healthy, reliable and (as far as possible) self sufficient.

[/quote]

Is that you currently after 5 years of training?

Assuming you’ve been eating, lifting and supplementing correctly and are near your natural limit currently.

Would you still avoid juicing and live with the body you have now?

82

If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

I enjoy what I do and how I am. On evaluation, I don?t see much added value to my life for using and plenty of downsides.

83

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

I enjoy what I do and how I am. On evaluation, I don?t see much added value to my life for using and plenty of downsides.[/quote]

If that’s how you’ve framed steroid use in your mind, then yes you definitely shouldn’t use.