Should note I’m talking after a good cycle where muscle was added not glycogen and water super compensation of 20lbs in 3 months. That’s not muscle.
Does anyone know of any cases where someone has actually got in trouble for possessing AAS?
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]
Anderson, R A, A M Wallace, and F C Wu. â??Comparison between Testosterone Enanthate-Induced Azoospermia and Oligozoospermia in a Male Contraceptive Study. III. Higher 5 Alpha-Reductase Activity in Oligozoospermic Men Administered Supraphysiological Doses of Testosterone.â?? The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 81, no. 3 (March 1996): 902â??8. doi:10.1210/jcem.81.3.8772548.
Gazvani, M R, W Buckett, M J Luckas, I A Aird, L J Hipkin, and D I Lewis-Jones. â??Conservative Management of Azoospermia Following Steroid Abuse.â?? Human Reproduction (Oxford, England) 12, no. 8 (August 1997): 1706â??8.
Menon, Dev Kumar. â??Successful Treatment of Anabolic Steroid-Induced Azoospermia with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and Human Menopausal Gonadotropin.â?? Fertility and Sterility 79 Suppl 3 (June 2003): 1659â??61.
Schürmeyer, T, U A Knuth, L Belkien, and E Nieschlag. â??Reversible Azoospermia Induced by the Anabolic Steroid 19-Nortestosterone.â?? Lancet 1, no. 8374 (February 25, 1984): 417â??20.
Sørensen, M B, and H J Ingerslev. â??[Azoospermia in 2 body-builders after taking anabolic steroids].â?? Ugeskrift for laeger 157, no. 8 (February 20, 1995): 1044â??45.
“Azoospermia is the medical condition of a man not having any measurable level of sperm in his semen. It is associated with very low levels of fertility or even sterility…”
therajraj it sounds like you’ve already made up your mind man.
For me personally (although it’s not evident, I have been training properly for over 5 years lol) it all comes down to independence - much the same as what csulli wrote in his initial post. I live this lifestyle because I want to turn my body into a more capable tool, and that means I want to have the ability to thrive in less than optimal conditions, I don’t want to literally require supra-optimal conditions (probably made that word up, but you get my point). To use csulli’s example: I want to be able to survive if I’m stranded from civilisation in any way, and I feel that requiring an external substance to keep going means you are more vulnerable, not less. I want a body that is not only strong, but is also healthy, reliable and (as far as possible) self sufficient.
In summary independence (from both taking substances and from healthcare needs associated with side effects/complications) is my primary reason for not taking any form of PED. Secondary to that are the legal issues, the social stigma, the financial cost and the challenge of achieving my particular goals naturally.
I live in the South-East Asian regions and over here by law it is illegal - but the police don’t do much about it. Legality wise here - it’s a joke. A few teens younger than me (i’m only 20) are already on stuff and dealing wise it’s done pretty openly. I don’t think its pharm grade though.
I know a few friends who’ve blown up while taking. For myself, I’m unsure of the risks and rewards that come with it. The information on the net is extremely conflicting and not conclusive (i feel. or maybe my homework skills suck). I’ve talked to a dealer (who’s on steroids) and asked him about side effects and his response was basically something along the lines of ‘‘if you don’t trust me then don’t bother’’.
I don’t know what I’ll want when I’m 50. I’m sure that our personal goals/outlook on life will change as we get older. Kids? Family? Health? Are they even affected? If so, to what extent and how deep do they run? Will my kids have any issues?
If i’m not wrong, most of the stuff here is UGL and not pharm. From what I’ve gathered online, purity is a big problem with UGL stuff. For all you know there could be random chemicals and shit in what you thought was test.
I’m personally still on the fence. I know that I don’t have what it takes to be a professional bodybuilder. It could be my naivety and short-sightedness that will cause me to say this, but sometimes it really feels like shit to train hard and try to do everything right but see someone else zoom right past you while doing everything wrong. Will they keep the gains? Is it worth it? I don’t know. Yeah I sound like a pussy but I’m just trying to see the most rational choice I can make.
tl;dr
-easy to buy roids in SEA, as good as legal lol
-Not sure of effects of roids (conflicting info everywhere)
-Changing perspective in life
-Purity issue
-Won’t be a competitive bber
-Worth it?
Not interested.
For the same reasons many have mentioned above. Related: has anyone noticed a correlation between taking steroids and being a jerk??
Im not saying all steroid users are jerks, but I feel there is a higher percentage of jerks amongst the steroid ysers.
*tweet *
Optheta made the same thread (inspired by Standard Donkey who was the forum authority on all things lifting related back then) a while back and then started cycling after reading several pages worth of responses.
The thing is, they both had nothing to lose…loss of libido, bacne and hair loss are of little consequence to perma-virgins. I have no idea about you though.
As a user myself, I will say that ALMOST every “side” is manageable (theoretically) and yet no one can predict how YOU will respond to gear.
Mind you, I said ALMOST.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m just now looking into going the assisted route (undecided just reading).
For those who’ve been lifting for at least 5 years, why did you choose to stay natural or start juicing?
[/quote]
I’d be interested in hearing more about WF’s experience.
I think the OP has answered his own question about whether or not to take looking at his rebuttal of all the points made against taking. I would say this though, if you do take gear then yes you will get bigger and stronger, but remember, unless you’re an elite then this whole game of bodybuilding and/or powerlifting should be more a competition with yourself than those around you.
I’m not saying don’t strive to be better than those above you but ultimately I view it as a competition with yourself, are you stronger than the you last month. And you’ll always have goals/targets, l.e my current aim for deadlift is 600lb, and when I get that I’ll aim for the next milestone, but if I took gear I may be deadlifting 600lbs already, but then I’ll be aiming at 700lb and so on, basically I’m trying to say that it is unlikely you will ever be fully satisfied with where you are at, you’ll always be hungry for more, so don’t view it as a quick way to get your targets or the body you currently desire, because when you get there the chances are you will want more.
So as well as asking yourself why stay natural, maybe you should ask yourself why take gear? I’m not saying it is ultimately wrong, I couldn’t give a monkeys whether someone is natural or not (as long as not claiming natural when juicing) but I think you should have a very good reason as to why to take the initial plunge. Just my take on it.
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
I’d be interested in hearing more about WF’s experience.[/quote]
If you mean me, fire away.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Strength and weight gain was nuts. Adding 12+ pounds to the scale and 30-40 pounds to your reps on bench in a month is crazy addicting. Pump and energy is unreal. You feel like you can walk through a brick wall at all times. You also look like you just busted out 50 pushups no matter where you are or what you’re doing.
[/quote]
Dat feel is the most intriguing part of using AAS for me - not the strength and hypertrophy gains per se. Anyway, I have doubts that I would be able to control the addiction part of it all. So make that my (3) reason.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
(2) Would have a hard time trusting something sold out of the trunk of a car. I could make my own, like some folks here do, but then again I’d have to trust myself to do it right…
[/quote]
If you do some research and looking around, you’ll find it’s pretty easy to acquire good quality.
[/quote]
Ya, I guess…
I donno, I prefer my drugs approved by the FDA, however, repeat customers are good for business, lol, so I’m sure quality suppliers are out there.
Agree with Flip on all his points. Although I do buy supplements largely because it’s legal and I think they can increase health & longevity.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]
Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.[/quote]
All gains are not lost. AAS and GH will create structural differences that are for life and add size that won’t leave unless you diet like an idiot off AAS. Seen way to many first hand pct and stay in decent shape except 10lbs bigger than before cycle and they were big to start with.
Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]
I think it goes without saying that the effects of GH are permanent rofl. That’s not usually a good thing though.
Anyway, I don’t know the kind of time frame you’re looking at, but if they did a cycle and then spent, say 2 years off, are you telling me they actually kept anything from that? They may be bigger and stronger from 2 years of training, but I doubt they kept anything. The amount of muscle your body will hold is dependent on your test levels.
And they ALWAYS cause some kind of sterility. Maybe you meant to include the word “permanent” in your statement? I never said I was worried about being permanently sterile, I said I didn’t want to deal with the issues of having to reverse the temporary sterility that is extremely common. For some men it takes up to 2 years to get back to normal.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Strength and weight gain was nuts. Adding 12+ pounds to the scale and 30-40 pounds to your reps on bench in a month is crazy addicting. Pump and energy is unreal. You feel like you can walk through a brick wall at all times. You also look like you just busted out 50 pushups no matter where you are or what you’re doing.
[/quote]
Dat feel is the most intriguing part of using AAS for me - not the strength and hypertrophy gains per se. Anyway, I have doubts that I would be able to control the addiction part of it all. So make that my (3) reason.
[/quote]
It’s gonna depend on how each individual handle the side effects though. Thats part of the reason why i don’t do even any orals now while regaining muscle after a 10 year layoff.
Tired all the time, insomnia, head feeling like its going to explode, explosive rage…
The pumps as i remember were truly ridiculous though.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Strength and weight gain was nuts. Adding 12+ pounds to the scale and 30-40 pounds to your reps on bench in a month is crazy addicting. Pump and energy is unreal. You feel like you can walk through a brick wall at all times. You also look like you just busted out 50 pushups no matter where you are or what you’re doing.
[/quote]
Dat feel is the most intriguing part of using AAS for me - not the strength and hypertrophy gains per se. Anyway, I have doubts that I would be able to control the addiction part of it all. So make that my (3) reason.
[/quote]
Man, you know those times when you have everything dialed in, your nutrition is on point, you feel good and rested but progress still seems like you’re timing it with a calendar? When on, you’re timing it with a watch. No matter what you’re doing outside of the gym, the weight’s goin’ up when you’re in it. Knowing that that feeling is only as far as the new designer steroid at your local sup shop or online (never mind the “real” thing) is, and will always be, hard to pass up.
It’s so easy to convince yourself that “I’ll just use this as a little boost, then ride the gain train to swole city!!!”… and then you realize you’ve backdoored 4 different potentially highly toxic substances into your body in 6 months all for 50 pounds on your bench. That’s partly why I haven’t taken anything in years. It’s real easy to fall back in. Amongst other things I’m currently not willing to risk the potentially irreversible damage. You think you have it all figured out at 25. You hit 30 and your life’s lens gets a little more in focus.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]
Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.[/quote]
All gains are not lost. AAS and GH will create structural differences that are for life and add size that won’t leave unless you diet like an idiot off AAS. Seen way to many first hand pct and stay in decent shape except 10lbs bigger than before cycle and they were big to start with.
Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men
[/quote]
I think it goes without saying that the effects of GH are permanent rofl. That’s not usually a good thing though.
Anyway, I don’t know the kind of time frame you’re looking at, but if they did a cycle and then spent, say 2 years off, are you telling me they actually kept anything from that? They may be bigger and stronger from 2 years of training, but I doubt they kept anything. The amount of muscle your body will hold is dependent on your test levels.
And they ALWAYS cause some kind of sterility. Maybe you meant to include the word “permanent” in your statement? I never said I was worried about being permanently sterile, I said I didn’t want to deal with the issues of having to reverse the temporary sterility that is extremely common. For some men it takes up to 2 years to get back to normal.[/quote]
Are you referring to the “pumped up” look people have when on AAS when you talk about losing gains? Because that will definitely disappear as soon as whatever stuff they have been taking clears their systems. Which is why bigger guys may even lose up to 20lbs after a cycle.
From experience, muscular gains are retainable as long as one is not at his genetic peak yet.
To answer everyone’s question, I’m 50/50. I’ve been researching this idea for several weeks, found answers for most questions and started this thread to see if I had missed anything.
I also knew on this board, a site run by a company that sells high end bodybuilding supplements mostly pro-natural types would chime in. If everyone were unanimously against drugs, it wouldn’t make for a productive discussion.
I’m personally still deciding for the simple fact that I have a family history of high triglycerides and high blood pressure. My dads on multiple meds (he’s skinny) and his brother has had a heart attack. While my blood results came back fine, I’m still apprehensive for this reason.
On the hair loss side, I’m not particularly worried. Both my grandfathers had full heads of hair on their death bed so I don’t think I have the MPB gene. Nor am I worried about legal implications as the law in Canada states one can be in possession of steroids so long as they are in quantities for personal use. Furthermore, if a parcel gets seized at customs, nothing happens legally other than getting a letter informing you of this fact. For acne, I’ve never really had it, not even as a teen. Maybe 1 or 2 pimples all throughout highschool that disappeared after only a few days.
Lastly, on the sterility side, after talking and looking around, for most men it’s temporary. Yes you might have wait 3 months - 2 years before you sperm produces, but so what? Any girl who is afforded the luxury of carrying my seed to term will understand. On top of that, modern medicine is jumping leaps and bounds almost on a daily basis. If a fertility specialist can successfully plant life into the cold-dead womb of a 40 year old woman, I’m sure he’ll be able to get my jigger sputtering in no time.
There’s lots of responses, but plenty of overlap. Did I miss anything?
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Strength and weight gain was nuts. Adding 12+ pounds to the scale and 30-40 pounds to your reps on bench in a month is crazy addicting. Pump and energy is unreal. You feel like you can walk through a brick wall at all times. You also look like you just busted out 50 pushups no matter where you are or what you’re doing.
[/quote]
Dat feel is the most intriguing part of using AAS for me - not the strength and hypertrophy gains per se. Anyway, I have doubts that I would be able to control the addiction part of it all. So make that my (3) reason.
[/quote]
It’s gonna depend on how each individual handle the side effects though. Thats part of the reason why i don’t do even any orals now while regaining muscle after a 10 year layoff.
Tired all the time, insomnia, head feeling like its going to explode, explosive rage…
The pumps as i remember were truly ridiculous though.
[/quote]
Man, don’t remember insomnia or the headaches, but the lethargy was awful, at least at “higher” dosages. Felt like Winny the Poo 22 hours a day and the Incredible Hulk the other 2. Sex drive was also bananas. Was runnin’ through pussy like it was my job.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
To answer everyone’s question, I’m 50/50. I’ve been researching this idea for several weeks, found answers for most questions and started this thread to see if I had missed anything.
I also knew on this board, a site run by a company that sells high end bodybuilding supplements mostly pro-natural types would chime in. If everyone were unanimously against drugs, it wouldn’t make for a productive discussion.
I’m personally still deciding for the simple fact that I have a family history of high triglycerides and high blood pressure. My dads on multiple meds (he’s skinny) and his brother has had a heart attack. While my blood results came back fine, I’m still apprehensive for this reason.
On the hair loss side, I’m not particularly worried. Both my grandfathers had full heads of hair on their death bed so I don’t think I have the MPB gene. Nor am I worried about legal implications as the law in Canada states one can be in possession of steroids so long as they are in quantities for personal use. Furthermore, if a parcel gets seized at customs, nothing happens legally other than getting a letter informing you of this fact. For acne, I’ve never really had it, not even as a teen. Maybe 1 or 2 pimples all throughout highschool that disappeared after only a few days.
Lastly, on the sterility side, after talking and looking around, for most men it’s temporary. Yes you might have wait 3 months - 2 years before you sperm produces, but so what? Any girl who is afforded the luxury of carrying my seed to term will understand. On top of that, modern medicine is jumping leaps and bounds almost on a daily basis. If a fertility specialist can successfully plant life into the cold-dead womb of a 40 year old woman, I’m sure he’ll be able to get my jigger sputtering in no time.
There’s lots of responses, but plenty of overlap. Did I miss anything?
[/quote]
I would be nervous with a family history like that. Will you do anymore tests? Also will you get a physician to monitor you on your cycle if you do decide?