Why Stay Natural?

Training
84

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

I enjoy what I do and how I am. On evaluation, I don?t see much added value to my life for using and plenty of downsides.[/quote]

If that’s how you’ve framed steroid use in your mind, then yes you definitely shouldn’t use.[/quote]

I just asked myself the question, “would my life be better if I started using?” The only answer I could come up with is a resounding no.

Do you think your life is/would be better with them?

It’s kinda like equipment in powerlifting. I get to compete, have fun, make progress, get healthier, be strong, look good, est without equipment. If I were to go to single or multi-ply, would I get anything more out of the sport? Absolutely not. So spending the money, effort, practice, research, frustration, est. never made a lick of sense.

85

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit.

Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.

86

What reasons do you have that you want to use? More muscle/strength is great, but for what reasons?

87

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo.

88

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit.

Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think you misunderstand my statement, or I wasn’t clear. I’m saying steroids aren’t going to really change anything. The other side of that statement is that if you are enough without them, you are enough with them. Basically, if you aren’t a man, steroids won’t make you one. If you are a man, again, they don’t change anything.

The part I maybe evaluate differently than some is that if you are enough without them, I don’t see the point in adding them (medical usage aside).

I’m definitely a “to each his own” kind of guy, I think they should be legal and everyone should get to do what they want with themselves. Just giving my perspective and thought process in response to the posted question.

89

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

hah. kinda why I’ve cut way back on supplementation too. I do protein and health supplements only nowadays.

90

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
What reasons do you have that you want to use? More muscle/strength is great, but for what reasons? [/quote]

I see it as part of the general progression in my training career. I think it would enhance the pleasure I get from this part of my life.

I do not see it as some surrogate for my manhood or something.

I also think the side effects are way overblown.

I’m also an accountant. Think of the archetype associated with accountants and ask yourself: Will an accountant become aggressive to a fault from using? lol

91

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

I know the suit thing was a stretch. The weight lifting, past the point of ‘doing it for our health’, which most of us are past, is not a stretch.

Here’s the other thing about that particular comment. If my goal is to be the absolute strongest human I believe I can possibly be, and I don’t want to leave anything on the table, then steroids WOULD be the difference between being ‘enough’ and not being enough. Same goes for powerlifting. If it’s important to me that I compete in a powerlifting federation that allows for the maximum possible load to be moved, then why wouldn’t I lift equipped?

To me it’s all about how you’re wired to begin with. I’m a process oriented guy, and that’s why I lift: because I enjoy lifting. I enjoy the process involved with getting stronger. I enjoy challenging myself. I don’t have concrete goals, and I don’t particularly care about the things in the previous paragraph. Others are though. Some people DO have to be the best. Some people have an innate need to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. They care much more about results than processes. So to each their own.

92

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit.

Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think you misunderstand my statement, or I wasn’t clear. I’m saying steroids aren’t going to really change anything. The other side of that statement is that if you are enough without them, you are enough with them. Basically, if you aren’t a man, steroids won’t make you one. If you are a man, again, they don’t change anything.

The part I maybe evaluate differently than some is that if you are enough without them, I don’t see the point in adding them (medical usage aside).

I’m definitely a “to each his own” kind of guy, I think they should be legal and everyone should get to do what they want with themselves. Just giving my perspective and thought process in response to the posted question.
[/quote]

I think our disagreement is mostly the phrasing then. Saying ‘you’ seemed inflammatory/judgmental.

I agree that if you’re a shitty person before steroids (or most anything else for that matter), you’re a shitty person after. There isn’t any ‘thing’ that can make you a man.

93

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

I know the suit thing was a stretch. The weight lifting, past the point of ‘doing it for our health’, which most of us are past, is not a stretch.

Here’s the other thing about that particular comment. If my goal is to be the absolute strongest human I believe I can possibly be, and I don’t want to leave anything on the table, then steroids WOULD be the difference between being ‘enough’ and not being enough. Same goes for powerlifting. If it’s important to me that I compete in a powerlifting federation that allows for the maximum possible load to be moved, then why wouldn’t I lift equipped?

To me it’s all about how you’re wired to begin with. I’m a process oriented guy, and that’s why I lift: because I enjoy lifting. I enjoy the process involved with getting stronger. I enjoy challenging myself. I don’t have concrete goals, and I don’t particularly care about the things in the previous paragraph. Others are though. Some people DO have to be the best. Some people have an innate need to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. They care much more about results than processes. So to each their own.
[/quote]

I don’t think we are in disagreement so much as looking at the comment through different perspectives. I agree with you that steroids would be a difference maker if your goal is to the strongest person you can be, however, to reach this goal a lot of other things have to be dialed in. If you’re taking steroids and doing P90X you probably aren’t going to reach your strength potential. So, in the context of DD’s comment, if you lack the discipline to eat what you need to eat, sleep how much you need to sleep, and train the way you need to train in order to be the strongest you can be than you aren’t ‘enough’ without steroids and you won’t be ‘enough’ with steroids.

94

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

I know the suit thing was a stretch. The weight lifting, past the point of ‘doing it for our health’, which most of us are past, is not a stretch.

Here’s the other thing about that particular comment. If my goal is to be the absolute strongest human I believe I can possibly be, and I don’t want to leave anything on the table, then steroids WOULD be the difference between being ‘enough’ and not being enough. Same goes for powerlifting. If it’s important to me that I compete in a powerlifting federation that allows for the maximum possible load to be moved, then why wouldn’t I lift equipped?

To me it’s all about how you’re wired to begin with. I’m a process oriented guy, and that’s why I lift: because I enjoy lifting. I enjoy the process involved with getting stronger. I enjoy challenging myself. I don’t have concrete goals, and I don’t particularly care about the things in the previous paragraph. Others are though. Some people DO have to be the best. Some people have an innate need to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. They care much more about results than processes. So to each their own.
[/quote]

I see life as a journey not a destination. To me training is about progress, there is no ultimate goal that if I hit it, I would be satisfied and stay where I was. If you are evaluating your life decisions based on how you stack up to others, I think you are making the wrong choices.

I think you are getting judgmental too stating that if I don’t use I’m not trying to be as good as I can (which is fine, it’s your opinion). But I’d say we all have boundaries on how far we go down roads before we say enough. Why do a gram of gear when you’d be “better” on 2? Why 2 when you’d be “better” on 3? Even guys that use have lines. Doesn’t mean that if you use less gear than you could you aren’t trying.

95

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’m saying steroids aren’t going to really change anything. The other side of that statement is that if you are enough without them, you are enough with them. Basically, if you aren’t a man, steroids won’t make you one. If you are a man, again, they don’t change anything.

The part I maybe evaluate differently than some is that if you are enough without them, I don’t see the point in adding them (medical usage aside).
[/quote]

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
What reasons do you have that you want to use? More muscle/strength is great, but for what reasons? [/quote]
From my perspective it will never be enough with or without steroids. I always want to be stronger. Ask Ed Coan if he ever got “strong enough”. The first time I ever pulled 500 I was happy for about 5 seconds before I started thinking about 550 and 585 and 600.

It will never be enough with or without steroids, but steroids will take you farther. Doesn’t anyone else have that innate, insatiable desire to keep getting as strong as you possibly can with absolutely no end? That’s always been reason enough for me if ever the day comes when that reason outweighs my reasons not to.

96

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit.

Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think you misunderstand my statement, or I wasn’t clear. I’m saying steroids aren’t going to really change anything. The other side of that statement is that if you are enough without them, you are enough with them. Basically, if you aren’t a man, steroids won’t make you one. If you are a man, again, they don’t change anything.

The part I maybe evaluate differently than some is that if you are enough without them, I don’t see the point in adding them (medical usage aside).

I’m definitely a “to each his own” kind of guy, I think they should be legal and everyone should get to do what they want with themselves. Just giving my perspective and thought process in response to the posted question.
[/quote]

I think our disagreement is mostly the phrasing then. Saying ‘you’ seemed inflammatory/judgmental.

I agree that if you’re a shitty person before steroids (or most anything else for that matter), you’re a shitty person after. There isn’t any ‘thing’ that can make you a man.
[/quote]

Not mean to be inflammatory, but yes, by nature I’m making a value judgment. By necessity, it’s judgmental.

97

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’m saying steroids aren’t going to really change anything. The other side of that statement is that if you are enough without them, you are enough with them. Basically, if you aren’t a man, steroids won’t make you one. If you are a man, again, they don’t change anything.

The part I maybe evaluate differently than some is that if you are enough without them, I don’t see the point in adding them (medical usage aside).
[/quote]

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
What reasons do you have that you want to use? More muscle/strength is great, but for what reasons? [/quote]
From my perspective it will never be enough with or without steroids. I always want to be stronger. Ask Ed Coan if he ever got “strong enough”. The first time I ever pulled 500 I was happy for about 5 seconds before I started thinking about 550 and 585 and 600. It will never be enough with or without steroids, but steroids will take you farther. Doesn’t anyone else have that innate, insatiable desire to keep getting as strong as you possibly can with absolutely no end? That’s always been reason enough for me if ever the day comes when that reason outweighs my reasons not to.[/quote]

And would you be “better” if you worked really hard busted your ass and set a 600 pound squat PR vs. doing the same thing and hitting 700 with AAS? Would your life be better or more fulfilled in the second case?

A PR is a PR in my book.

98

Out of curiosity how much do you lift Rajraj?

99

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Out of curiosity how much do you lift Rajraj?[/quote]

Squat: 405 x 5
Trap Bar DL : 495 x 8
BP: 125lb DB x 8 - Can’t widegrip bench a bar without shoulder pain.

Never done 1RM.

100

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

I know the suit thing was a stretch. The weight lifting, past the point of ‘doing it for our health’, which most of us are past, is not a stretch.

Here’s the other thing about that particular comment. If my goal is to be the absolute strongest human I believe I can possibly be, and I don’t want to leave anything on the table, then steroids WOULD be the difference between being ‘enough’ and not being enough. Same goes for powerlifting. If it’s important to me that I compete in a powerlifting federation that allows for the maximum possible load to be moved, then why wouldn’t I lift equipped?

To me it’s all about how you’re wired to begin with. I’m a process oriented guy, and that’s why I lift: because I enjoy lifting. I enjoy the process involved with getting stronger. I enjoy challenging myself. I don’t have concrete goals, and I don’t particularly care about the things in the previous paragraph. Others are though. Some people DO have to be the best. Some people have an innate need to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. They care much more about results than processes. So to each their own.
[/quote]

I see life as a journey not a destination. To me training is about progress, there is no ultimate goal that if I hit it, I would be satisfied and stay where I was. If you are evaluating your life decisions based on how you stack up to others, I think you are making the wrong choices.

I think you are getting judgmental too stating that if I don’t use I’m not trying to be as good as I can (which is fine, it’s your opinion). But I’d say we all have boundaries on how far we go down roads before we say enough. Why do a gram of gear when you’d be “better” on 2? Why 2 when you’d be “better” on 3? Even guys that use have lines. Doesn’t mean that if you use less gear than you could you aren’t trying.[/quote]

Please quote me so I can see where I said someone not using is not trying to be as ‘good’ as they can? You replaced ‘strong’ with ‘good’, which is an entirely different argument. Strong is measurable. I would be stronger with steroids. Therefore, I am not trying to be as strong as possible. Neither are you. I do strive for goodness, greatness, however you want to describe personal ethics, an overall view of self, whatever. Sounds like you are too. These things aren’t quantifiable the way strength is, and I have no business saying one person is living ‘better’ than another. If I came across as saying this, then that’s my mistake. I thought I was saying the opposite.

101

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

I know the suit thing was a stretch. The weight lifting, past the point of ‘doing it for our health’, which most of us are past, is not a stretch.

Here’s the other thing about that particular comment. If my goal is to be the absolute strongest human I believe I can possibly be, and I don’t want to leave anything on the table, then steroids WOULD be the difference between being ‘enough’ and not being enough. Same goes for powerlifting. If it’s important to me that I compete in a powerlifting federation that allows for the maximum possible load to be moved, then why wouldn’t I lift equipped?

To me it’s all about how you’re wired to begin with. I’m a process oriented guy, and that’s why I lift: because I enjoy lifting. I enjoy the process involved with getting stronger. I enjoy challenging myself. I don’t have concrete goals, and I don’t particularly care about the things in the previous paragraph. Others are though. Some people DO have to be the best. Some people have an innate need to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. They care much more about results than processes. So to each their own.
[/quote]

I don’t think we are in disagreement so much as looking at the comment through different perspectives. I agree with you that steroids would be a difference maker if your goal is to the strongest person you can be, however, to reach this goal a lot of other things have to be dialed in. If you’re taking steroids and doing P90X you probably aren’t going to reach your strength potential. So, in the context of DD’s comment, if you lack the discipline to eat what you need to eat, sleep how much you need to sleep, and train the way you need to train in order to be the strongest you can be than you aren’t ‘enough’ without steroids and you won’t be ‘enough’ with steroids.

[/quote]

This is kind of a strawman point though, isn’t it? Who in this conversation/context is talking about the guy who’s using steroids and doing P90X? I felt like the context was already established that we’re talking about serious lifters. Raj’s numbers, for instance, are pretty impressive. He didn’t get there by doing P90X and dialing in a lot of variables. I don’t feel like DD’s comments had anything to do with dedication to training. For most if not all of us, that’s already assumed.

102

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

I know the suit thing was a stretch. The weight lifting, past the point of ‘doing it for our health’, which most of us are past, is not a stretch.

Here’s the other thing about that particular comment. If my goal is to be the absolute strongest human I believe I can possibly be, and I don’t want to leave anything on the table, then steroids WOULD be the difference between being ‘enough’ and not being enough. Same goes for powerlifting. If it’s important to me that I compete in a powerlifting federation that allows for the maximum possible load to be moved, then why wouldn’t I lift equipped?

To me it’s all about how you’re wired to begin with. I’m a process oriented guy, and that’s why I lift: because I enjoy lifting. I enjoy the process involved with getting stronger. I enjoy challenging myself. I don’t have concrete goals, and I don’t particularly care about the things in the previous paragraph. Others are though. Some people DO have to be the best. Some people have an innate need to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. They care much more about results than processes. So to each their own.
[/quote]

I see life as a journey not a destination. To me training is about progress, there is no ultimate goal that if I hit it, I would be satisfied and stay where I was. If you are evaluating your life decisions based on how you stack up to others, I think you are making the wrong choices.

I think you are getting judgmental too stating that if I don’t use I’m not trying to be as good as I can (which is fine, it’s your opinion). But I’d say we all have boundaries on how far we go down roads before we say enough. Why do a gram of gear when you’d be “better” on 2? Why 2 when you’d be “better” on 3? Even guys that use have lines. Doesn’t mean that if you use less gear than you could you aren’t trying.[/quote]

Please quote me so I can see where I said someone not using is not trying to be as ‘good’ as they can? You replaced ‘strong’ with ‘good’, which is an entirely different argument. Strong is measurable. I would be stronger with steroids. Therefore, I am not trying to be as strong as possible. Neither are you. I do strive for goodness, greatness, however you want to describe personal ethics, an overall view of self, whatever. Sounds like you are too. These things aren’t quantifiable the way strength is, and I have no business saying one person is living ‘better’ than another. If I came across as saying this, then that’s my mistake. I thought I was saying the opposite.[/quote]

Saying I’m wrong to judge is saying not judging is better. You are being intolerant of intolerance. It’s self-defeating. Everyone makes judgments. Discrimination is part of any decision process.

I think a lot of decisions other people make are the wrong ones. Like, you thinking it was wrong of me to judge the actions of others . I’m not advocating or attempting to force anything on anyone, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving my evaluation. You don’t have to agree with it, but you don’t have the right to only read things that don’t offend you. Much the way I could have taken offense to insinuating I’m not really trying to be strong. I’m trying to get as strong as possible within my boundaries, same as everyone else.

Saying “it’s worth it” is no different judgmentally to saying “it’s not worth it” but I don’t see you calling out the guys saying to do it.

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[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you aren’t enough without them, you’ll never be enough with them.

[/quote]

Why? Couldn’t other people say this about a zillion different things that you do? Or I do? Or anybody? Here’s an argument I could make using the same rationale: Oh, you need to wear a suit to work/to X event? What makes you need that suit? If you aren’t enough wearing a t shirt and jeans, you’ll never be enough with a suit. Or: Oh you need to lift weights? If you weren’t enough without lifting weights, you’ll never be enough. Or: You need to read books? If you aren’t enough experiencing the world on your own, you’ll never be enough with books.

To each his own, no need to judge what others deem is worthwhile to their existence.[/quote]

I think what DD is trying to say is that essentially if your training, nutrition, rest, etc… isn’t dialed in than steroid use won’t be worth it.

Using your example, that would be like if you went into work/event X unprepared. The cloths you are wearing wouldn’t be relevant because your lack of preparation would be evident, but if you are prepared your presentation (ie suit vs. jean & t-shirt) would be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I see steroids & supplementation the same way. If you aren’t striving for excellence without them than there’s no point in using them, imo. [/quote]

I know the suit thing was a stretch. The weight lifting, past the point of ‘doing it for our health’, which most of us are past, is not a stretch.

Here’s the other thing about that particular comment. If my goal is to be the absolute strongest human I believe I can possibly be, and I don’t want to leave anything on the table, then steroids WOULD be the difference between being ‘enough’ and not being enough. Same goes for powerlifting. If it’s important to me that I compete in a powerlifting federation that allows for the maximum possible load to be moved, then why wouldn’t I lift equipped?

To me it’s all about how you’re wired to begin with. I’m a process oriented guy, and that’s why I lift: because I enjoy lifting. I enjoy the process involved with getting stronger. I enjoy challenging myself. I don’t have concrete goals, and I don’t particularly care about the things in the previous paragraph. Others are though. Some people DO have to be the best. Some people have an innate need to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. They care much more about results than processes. So to each their own.
[/quote]

I don’t think we are in disagreement so much as looking at the comment through different perspectives. I agree with you that steroids would be a difference maker if your goal is to the strongest person you can be, however, to reach this goal a lot of other things have to be dialed in. If you’re taking steroids and doing P90X you probably aren’t going to reach your strength potential. So, in the context of DD’s comment, if you lack the discipline to eat what you need to eat, sleep how much you need to sleep, and train the way you need to train in order to be the strongest you can be than you aren’t ‘enough’ without steroids and you won’t be ‘enough’ with steroids.

[/quote]

This is kind of a strawman point though, isn’t it? Who in this conversation/context is talking about the guy who’s using steroids and doing P90X? I felt like the context was already established that we’re talking about serious lifters. Raj’s numbers, for instance, are pretty impressive. He didn’t get there by doing P90X and dialing in a lot of variables. I don’t feel like DD’s comments had anything to do with dedication to training. For most if not all of us, that’s already assumed.[/quote]

I took the comment to be in general and I thought the context of the conversation was in general. This was posted in BSL after all (Raj’s #'s are impressive, but they weren’t posted when I first replied). Plus who’s to say someone on P90X isn’t a serious lifter that’s just misguided. If you don’t like P90X substitute crossfit or HIT. None of these things will make you the strongest, the biggest, in the best shape, etc… however, I bet a number of folks even on here follow these programs while using. Then there are the folks that follow, say, 5/3/1, but eat 1200 calories/day + steroids while striving to be the “strongest they can be”.

I don’t disagree with you, I think steroids will help pretty much regardless, however, the difference in their effect, imo, will be enormous between someone that knows what they are doing and someone that does not. That last sentence is essentially how I took DD’s comment.