I don’t do it because I’m a structural mess, and gaining strength too fast might fuck me up for good. haha
[quote]csulli wrote:
Anyway I have a few reasons. Whatever strength and size you gain with steroids you will lose without steroids. Given enough time of taking nothing, you will lose literally all of it and go back to whatever your body can naturally carry (or less if your natural levels never rebound all the way…). So if I were to take steroids I would only feel as though I were “borrowing” that strength; like it wasn’t really mine. I don’t want to be dependent on a substance. I like having the kind of strength where if suddenly I had no access to steroids or I was dropped in the wilderness or something that I would know how strong I was. I can count on my strength and what my body can do and not be thinking about how much weaker I’ll become if I suddenly can’t “borrow” that strength anymore.[/quote]
I’ve been entertaining the thought of using AAS (for strength mainly) in a couple of years time, but this is my main concern. Anyone have more arguments for and/or against this concern? How significant is the strength loss once you go off it assuming there’s any?
You’ve painted such dreary picture with your post.
A moribund father on his deathbed with his inconsolable son shouting “WHY dad WHY!!!?” lol
[quote]Myosin wrote:
Regret.
Not saying it will happen, but if I developed some sort of medical condition later on that my steroid use likely contributed to or legal trouble, it would mentally screw me, especially because of so little reward for such a risk at this level (bodybuilding/power sports…NFL/MLB contract might be different). I imagine looking at my kid’s face while I was in a hospital bed or in handcuffs and telling him, “Yeah, Daddy is a selffish dumbass”.
Worry. [/quote]
Without a doubt, steroids requires a closer monitoring of one’s health. Blood tests prior, during and after your cycle. A look into one’s personal family history is also important. A lot of the dangers your write about can be mitigated by simply taking preventative measures.
[quote]Myosin wrote:
Is this stuff legit? [/quote]
Do some looking around. We are living in the golden era of quality steroids. As little as a decade and a half ago, it was much more spotty (going to Mexico, etc.). It’s not hard to find a quality supplier.
[quote]Myosin wrote:
Is big brother watching me?[/quote]
Do they really care about the little guy who uses for himself but doesn’t distribute? I mean we’re on a legit supplement company forum and even they have a sub forum dedicated to steroids.
[quote]Myosin wrote:
What would my family think?[/quote]
You probably shouldn’t tell them. I personally wouldn’t. A definite con.
[quote]Myosin wrote:
If I take X, I need to get YZ to counter the sides.[/quote]
You really don’t know what sides your prone to until you start. I mean, if you find them unbearable you could always just stop your cycle.
[quote]Myosin wrote:
Enough mental energy is used on kcals, marcos, rep schemes, mealing planning etc. Add sources, supplies, money, lipids profiles, blood pressure, organ stress, estrogen rebound, gyno, surgery etc and its just too much to worry about (I suppose it is alot easier if you don’t care).[/quote]
For me I see this differently. You know when you first get into bodybuilding and even the tiniest morsel of knowledge with respect to training, diet or supplementation is so exciting and you can’t wait to try it?
Well the past few weeks, learning about steroids has done the same for me… anyways that just how I see it. Definitely not a bother but of course, I don’t compete.
[quote]csulli wrote:
No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]
Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
- Having kids. This one is almost out of the way, as my wife is due in a few months. Assuming a healthy baby and all, I’ll eventually be able to cross this off my list. [/quote]
Fair enough. If you’re in baby creation mode, you should stay off.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
2. Financial justification. I could afford it, but it’s hard for me to justify the expense. I know I’ll never make any money off my physique, so the return on investment would need to be a quality-of-life return, and I just don’t see it panning out. I go back and forth on this one though.[/quote]
Then why do you buy supplements?
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
3. Legality is a big one. I can’t afford to put myself in a legal situation for more reasons than I can count. This is by far the biggest reason, and will probably always be the hang up. [/quote]
True enough, though as I said earlier, not sure how much uncle Sam cares about the guy using it personally and not distributing.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
4. Availability. I have no connections. I also don’t know a lenient doc that would prescribe me Test or anything in my area. My levels are way too high to be considered a low-T candidate in any capacity, even by the loosest standards. I would basically have to get a doc that truly didn’t give a shit what showed up on my labs. That’s not the easiest thing to find. I’ve looked. I’m still looking. I’m in Dallas if anyone wants to drop a knowledge bomb on me.[/quote]
Have you looked? lol. Watch the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster. It’s easy to acquire if you spend some time looking into it.
[quote]carlos_anton wrote:
What is technically completely natural? There are plenty of sythetic and supplementation used that are legal.
Your multivitamin is additional supplementation.
I don’t think anyone is really capable of eating sufficiently all the foods that would provide the best nutrient profile.
That being said, AAS in itself is a grey area. Depending on how far down the rabit hole you go.
If using bio-identical hormones to supplement and regulate your body to “optimal” levels, I’d say go for it. Live out your QOL.
And if using this guided by legal drug dealers (aka your physician), it should be good.
Even if your agency or sport has rules against PEDs, most are for the extreme end of supplementation/doping. Anti-aging/Vitality is below that spectrum.
If you want to live out an extraordinary lifestyle, then by all means, use the full gamut of the pharmocology available.
It’s your life, and if you want extreme results, extreme measures are needed.
Either way, your using modern knowledge in pharmocology to make your life better and easier. Why not? Does all of life have to be a constant struggle and anguish to your goals? [/quote]
Agree
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
The only thing that has stopped me is fear of acne and/or losing my hair.[/quote]
Accutane and Rogaine.
Hair loss only will speed up if you have a predisposition. If you don’t nothing will change.
[/quote]
True, but, my thinking is I am taking steroids and now I have to take other shit on top of that. Seems like a lot when for me it would be for strictly vanity.
Not to mention the thinning of skin, flushing, drying, and everything else that comes from accutane. I mean what is the point of looking awesome when, you can not be in the sun for a long time.
Rogaine has some side effects to aside from the libido stuff many have reported aging of the skin probably because it rubs off on your pillow and then you sleep in it.
[/quote]
If you find the side effects unmanageable you can stop.
[quote]Mizery wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
Anyway I have a few reasons. Whatever strength and size you gain with steroids you will lose without steroids. Given enough time of taking nothing, you will lose literally all of it and go back to whatever your body can naturally carry (or less if your natural levels never rebound all the way…). So if I were to take steroids I would only feel as though I were “borrowing” that strength; like it wasn’t really mine. I don’t want to be dependent on a substance. I like having the kind of strength where if suddenly I had no access to steroids or I was dropped in the wilderness or something that I would know how strong I was. I can count on my strength and what my body can do and not be thinking about how much weaker I’ll become if I suddenly can’t “borrow” that strength anymore.[/quote]
I’ve been entertaining the thought of using AAS (for strength mainly) in a couple of years time, but this is my main concern. Anyone have more arguments for and/or against this concern? How significant is the strength loss once you go off it assuming there’s any?
[/quote]
Even if he’s correct and you have to do a cycle annually, what’s the big deal? For 3 months straight you’re locked in and pushing hard. It’s like a training vacation lol.
Though I don’t buy they all disappear as soon as you’re off.
I have no idea how to get them, and have a lot of reasons to be fearful of the legality consequences. I don’t believe many people get in trouble for steroids, but there’s the possibility and a felony would ruin many of my current and future plans in life.
Maybe I’m delusional, but it seems to me that most of the people who have used in the past and came off seem to still possess a good physique. Obviously not up to the level they had when they were on, but still respectable. I wonder if they lose their “enhanced” gains but still keep the level of muscle they could have obtained naturally? Logically, it makes sense to me that that would happen. I mean, if your hormones and body is able to carry 200 lbs fairly lean naturally, why would you drop below that once you come off steroids? Sure, you might not be able to support 220+ without drugs, but if you can do 200 why would your body continue to drop muscle past that?
Hopefully my question makes sense. It does in my head but that doesn’t always mean much lol.
Only a very few make $$$ bodybuilding. Big risk, little reward. I think you need to look at bodybuilding as a lifestyle, enjoy the training and the improvements in your physique. There will be some that respond to training quicker than you and just naturally have a better looking physique, but you have to be satisfied with and be proud of what changes you can make. Your primary goal and the long term most satisfying goal is to build your physique the best you can for as LONG as possible. I bet you will get more compliments as you get older and continue to have a good looking healthy body versus a quick muscle gain that over the long term have to deal with the adverse effects as you get older.( Cardiovascular, renal, joints, emotional). If you start using, just like other drugs, you will always want to get back on and chasing something you will never catch.
Just my opinion
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
- Having kids. This one is almost out of the way, as my wife is due in a few months. Assuming a healthy baby and all, I’ll eventually be able to cross this off my list. [/quote]
Fair enough. If you’re in baby creation mode, you should stay off.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
2. Financial justification. I could afford it, but it’s hard for me to justify the expense. I know I’ll never make any money off my physique, so the return on investment would need to be a quality-of-life return, and I just don’t see it panning out. I go back and forth on this one though.[/quote]
Then why do you buy supplements?
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
3. Legality is a big one. I can’t afford to put myself in a legal situation for more reasons than I can count. This is by far the biggest reason, and will probably always be the hang up. [/quote]
True enough, though as I said earlier, not sure how much uncle Sam cares about the guy using it personally and not distributing.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
4. Availability. I have no connections. I also don’t know a lenient doc that would prescribe me Test or anything in my area. My levels are way too high to be considered a low-T candidate in any capacity, even by the loosest standards. I would basically have to get a doc that truly didn’t give a shit what showed up on my labs. That’s not the easiest thing to find. I’ve looked. I’m still looking. I’m in Dallas if anyone wants to drop a knowledge bomb on me.[/quote]
Have you looked? lol. Watch the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster. It’s easy to acquire if you spend some time looking into it.
[/quote]
As far as supplements go, I buy brain candy and protein. I don’t consider brain candy to be a workout supplement, it just happens to be sold here. I use it for overall productivity in my life. And the protein is an inexpensive calorie source, as compared to most whole foods. I used to buy more, but based on my reasoning stated above, I stopped. It’s why I haven’t invested in Micro Pa.
You’re right, Uncle Sam probably doesn’t care for the most part, BUT when you have previous illegal substances on your record, the risk/reward changes.
Raj - you just playing devil’s advocate here or do you already have your mind made up?
Tried a few of the old designer steroids (M1T, Sustevol/Omnevol and Superdrol) which were legal steroids that were a few molecules off of their copied cousin (dbol, deca, tren, whatever) and have this to say:
Strength and weight gain was nuts. Adding 12+ pounds to the scale and 30-40 pounds to your reps on bench in a month is crazy addicting. Pump and energy is unreal. You feel like you can walk through a brick wall at all times. You also look like you just busted out 50 pushups no matter where you are or what you’re doing.
You don’t have to change anything. You obviously should, but you can do everything you’re currently doing (food, training, rest) and it’ll work. You’ll just do it way better.
Anger. I’ve read that steroids enhance your natural disposition (so if you’re naturally an asshole, you’re a super asshole juiced up). I’d agree based on my experience. Always been aggressive, but it was on overdrive while taking. There were also a handful of instances where I’d get worked up like a broad. You know who likes that? No one. I can barely stand it when actual broads do it, so there’s that.
Hair loss is 100% real. My hair not only thinned on my head, I got random patches of hair on my back and neck. They’re faint, but there. The thinning hair slightly subsided but it’s not as thick as it was. I’m lucky that it started out super thick and the back hair is reachable with a razor.
Gains are toast when you come off, and in most cases I wound up weaker than I started. This is both physically and emotionally rough. Also my nuts shrank to the size of buffalo nickels. Both the strength and the juevos return to pre cycle size pretty quickly.
There’s more, but I’ve been at work all day and I’m tired. Based on what I know, I have no desire to use, at least now. Training naturally is most definitely harder, but it’s also more rewarding. Raj, sounds like you’ve got your mind made up, but ask yourself: is 20lbs of temporary muscle worth being bald and hairy?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
The only thing that has stopped me is fear of acne and/or losing my hair.[/quote]
Accutane and Rogaine.
Hair loss only will speed up if you have a predisposition. If you don’t nothing will change.
[/quote]
True, but, my thinking is I am taking steroids and now I have to take other shit on top of that. Seems like a lot when for me it would be for strictly vanity.
Not to mention the thinning of skin, flushing, drying, and everything else that comes from accutane. I mean what is the point of looking awesome when, you can not be in the sun for a long time.
Rogaine has some side effects to aside from the libido stuff many have reported aging of the skin probably because it rubs off on your pillow and then you sleep in it.
[/quote]
If you find the side effects unmanageable you can stop.[/quote]
Certain sides can be permanent.
I am happy using peptides. Nothing crazy physique wise but, the moderate effects in addition to better hair and skin is what I had been looking for. Much cheaper and no side effects.
I dont think steroids users look good. People who take them and are not good at lifting weights look fucked up. Only hard and intelligent work make your body look good, steroids or not. So why would you care about taking them of the only thing that matter is your proficiency at this activity?
I know 1-2 persons who look awesome because they lift weight seriously, have been doing it for a fairly long time. They are strong André love being at the gym and doing it. They are natural. I see tons of labor worker assholes on steroids who only look like assholes with skin problems.
So nobody has a 401k since you lose some of those gains? It’s not a 1 cycle and that’s it. You are on and off all year round. You take pct and increase your protein and you can keep most gains and then jump to new prs next cycle.
Just my 2 cents. By the way if you ever said that I could do that if I did that then do it and get rid of the crutch.
[quote]carlos_anton wrote:
Either way, your using modern knowledge in pharmocology to make your life better and easier. Why not? Does all of life have to be a constant struggle and anguish to your goals? [/quote]
I think there’s a certain personality out there that finds enjoyment in the constant struggle.
Practically speaking, supplementation is not the same as using gear. There is a study out there that showed physically non-active males taking steriods added more muscle mass than males who were lifting without steriods. There is no supplement that is even in the same realm.
Looking at the issue from a matter of principles it becomes jumbled. If I wake uo in the morning, take some caffeine and yohimbine and then do some sprints for fat loss, I am using supplements to change my body chemistry in order to make better progress towards my goals. By trying to manipulate our macros, food timing, and supplements we are trying to create an advantage to make better progress that we wouldn’t have otherwise.
I guess the difference comes down to the practical side – the contribution we receive. Again, the contribution an athlete gets from steroids and from any of these legal supplements isn’t even close.
One way I have perceived (legal) supplementation is that the products can be tools to help the genetically average move closer to the biology of the natural and genetic elite. Thus in principle supplementation merely bridges a gap rather than enhancing someone beyond natural human potential. I realize this perception of the problem has some holes (what is average? what is elite? which supplements are allowed and which are not?), but in general I think it is a fair justification.
Personally, I’m not interested in gear because I’ve built some sort of romanticism around lifting. I started lifting in my mid twenties, skinny fat, did some running but otherwise didn’t really exercise and don’t have a talent for sports. I want to beat my genetics, beat the first 20 years of my life spent sitting on my ass playing computer games, and get bad ass strong. No sidekicks, I want to face the challenge on my own.
[quote]bwhitwell wrote:
Only a very few make $$$ bodybuilding. Big risk, little reward. I think you need to look at bodybuilding as a lifestyle, enjoy the training and the improvements in your physique. There will be some that respond to training quicker than you and just naturally have a better looking physique, but you have to be satisfied with and be proud of what changes you can make. Your primary goal and the long term most satisfying goal is to build your physique the best you can for as LONG as possible. I bet you will get more compliments as you get older and continue to have a good looking healthy body versus a quick muscle gain that over the long term have to deal with the adverse effects as you get older.( Cardiovascular, renal, joints, emotional). If you start using, just like other drugs, you will always want to get back on and chasing something you will never catch.
Just my opinion[/quote]
Hard to argue with this. My reason for not using would be solely legal
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]
Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
No they really don’t… Not that I have seen. They’ll keep them long enough to get them to their next cycle. If you stop taking steroids completely it will all go away eventually. [/quote]
Okay, let’s say you’re right. What about using them for cutting purposes to hold onto muscle? Would you consider using them for that?
[/quote]
Na, if I start using I’m gonna be on for life. I wouldn’t want to cycle.[/quote]
All gains are not lost. AAS and GH will create structural differences that are for life and add size that won’t leave unless you diet like an idiot off AAS. Seen way to many first hand pct and stay in decent shape except 10lbs bigger than before cycle and they were big to start with.
Also fertility isn’t an issue. Not one human study can be found where AAS or shutdown produced sterility in otherwise healthy fertile men