Thread’s a total troll job. I guess it’s a total accident that coaches from the high school level to elite use some kind of lifting with their athletes as opposed to relying solely on other kinds of training. You’re really onto someting Pound. You may just revolutionize the way the entire world appraoches sport. I think you should right a paper on why there are better ways of training (in part) for every single sport and why we’re all wasting out time.
[quote]Sxio wrote:
Pound4Pound wrote:
baretta wrote:
Sports have changed and athletes have become bigger, stronger and faster because of better training.
Bigger stronger, faster…and more cumbersome, less limber, less agile, less coordinated and less athletic. There is a trade-off for bigger and stronger my friends.
Not necessarily. If you lift slow, sure you’ll be slow. But if you lift fast using plyo’s and stretch, weightliftting can make you faster and more agile.
You’ve been on this site for a while, why don’t you know this?
[/quote]
I don’t think he really knows very much. I doubt he’s played any sport himself at a high level, either.
[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
baretta wrote:
I dont remember seeing any athlete of professional caliber that doesn’t incorporate some sort of weight program…hockey, basketball, football…etc.
Why do some people feel the need to come to a “bodybuilding think tank” and then continue to berate bodybuilding? I dont understand your motives, but your’re an idiot.
Some of the greatest hockey players of all time didn’t lift…Rocket Richard, Gretzky, #4 Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe etc etc
Specifically Gretzky. Do you think any of the stronger, weight trained modern hockey players are going to ever have 3 sonsecutive 200+ point seasons?? Nope.
Larry Bird, Kareem, McHale, Walton, West, Chamberlain…yeah they sucked. Too bad they didn’t lift weights so they could have been half descent.
Who’s the idiot now?
[/quote]
Lifitng does not make up for athleticism or lack of it. Doesn’t mean that the top players who do lift wouldn’t be worse off it they didn’t. And this applies to all levels of athletes. You are illogical. Also doesn’t mean that the greats you named couldn’t have been even better.
Talk about putting the cart before the horse!
What do you think turns a good or even great athlete into a great or elite level athlete?
There were two posts here that particularly motivated and inspired me, as well as some that just made me feel a need to go extra heavy today, just out of general principal. The “why I lift” from the first page and the true believer post from page 3 made me feel so hardcore that I could walk into a battlefield and take two rounds to the chest, no problem.
Seems that some people are taking some crap personally. Suck it up and have an adult conversation. Hopefully this isn’t someone’s first time being called out or criticized. Grow some Teflon on your skin.
I’m sure that anyone on the line, ends, linebackers or running backs would all kick a lot more ass if they didn’t lift and only did sprints, plyos and bodyweight exercises. I mean it’s not like they’d be 50+lbs lighter than their weight trained counterparts and get their ass handed to them all day long … Oh, wait, they would.
I lift because it makes me feel well.
I lift because I challenge myself, face to face.
I lift because you can’t critique me harder than I critique myself.
I lift because I am only as good as I push myself to be.
I lift because training is warfare. I fight harder with the load bearing down on me, threatening to crush me.
I lift because my blood, sweat, tears, and scars are the price of eventual victory.
[quote]BigPaul wrote:
I’m sure that anyone on the line, ends, linebackers or running backs would all kick a lot more ass if they didn’t lift and only did sprints, plyos and bodyweight exercises. I mean it’s not like they’d be 50+lbs lighter than their weight trained counterparts and get their ass handed to them all day long … Oh, wait, they would.[/quote]
He’ll argue that they’re athlete atheletes. But the same thing goes for high school and college football players too. They’d get trashed if they were smaller.
Nice Thread. What about the sport of gymnastics? My understanding is that these athletes incorporate very little or no weight training at all, yet possess some of the strongest physiques around. The arm and shoulder development of these athletes is extraordinary!
[quote]RJ24 wrote:
I’m a huge supporter of deadlifts, squats, and some other basic lifts, but they are not absolutely necessary to build a fantastic athlete. Using a combinationg of sprinting, plyos, bodyweight exercises, and EMS one can make a freak of an athlete. Sure squatting builds leg strength, but so does EMS, if you have access to it. Iso work also does a great job of transferring strength when combined with explosive movements. [/quote]
Your post was very well-stated and far more rational, polite version of the same argument, but the information you provide in the quote above is entirely incorrect.
EMS can not build the same level of strength as squats. Even if we presume an entirely equal level of muscular hypertrophy, that’s a far cry from functional strength.
The EMS misses the mark by such a wide degree that I’m sure I’ll miss some of the variations. From a basic sense of balance, and recognizing your body’s own balance in relation to bearing a significant weight on your back, to the neurological adaptations that take place making the muscle recruitment more efficient. There’s the beneficial effect on bone density of putting the body under the strain of weight, the adaptive response of tendons and ligaments, not to mention the host of supporting muscles that are made to work.
And that’s just quantifiable benefits. The sheer character-building aspect of shoring up your willpower to face heavy sets is another thing entirely.
I absolutely believe that it is a mistake to do nothing but weight-train… but I also think it would be really foolish to do nothing but run for fitness. Our bodies are made to respond to an amazingly wide variety of stress situations, whether that be sprinting, running for distance, heaving great weights, etc. For a greater degree of fitness, we have to engage in a wider variety of activities.
I was a skinny, ungainly kid. It wasn’t until I started weight-training and put on some muscle mass in my early 20’s that I suddenly blossomed as an athlete. I went from being the poor wretch who sucked at every sport (save goaltending in hockey) to surprising myself by dominating the field when we were playing pick-up games of softball, football, tennis… whatever came along. The only difference was weight-training, and the muscle I gained from it.
And someone mentioned some nonsense about weight-training not having an impact on real world strength? Jesus. Quit doing curls in the squat rack! Deadlifts, squat, military press, and even the humble, sometimes offensive curl have proven their validity to me again and again over the years. I honestly can’t see how someone could make that claim of denial with a straight face.
[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
baretta wrote:
Sports have changed and athletes have become bigger, stronger and faster because of better training.
Bigger stronger, faster…and more cumbersome, less limber, less agile, less coordinated and less athletic. There is a trade-off for bigger and stronger my friends.[/quote]
Here’s some anectodotal evidence for you…before training I was 6’2" 225 average guy, soft, only ran and did push-ups. Six years later after dropping running and push-ups and trading them for weight training (power lifting and o-lifting primarily) I’m now 6’2", 255 but I can dunk a basketball (couldn’t before) and I’m much faster beating guys 70 lbs lighter than me in physical agility tests for SWAT try-outs. To me, there is HUGE carry-over to my job. That’s why I train.
Pound4Pound see if this helps.
Go to the gym. Run around with your knees together while flailing your arms over your head yelling “o.k. you sthupid weight lifters…leths all go outside for sthom cardio”.
After you’ve had your no-load ass kicked you may come back to the thread and tell us why you have decided to start lifting.
What do you mean…no real world application for lifting??? I can carry all my groceries in one trip, I don’t need a roadie to help me with my guitar and gear and I can fetch the keg out of the pickup by my damn self!!! What more do you want?
[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
What about the sport of gymnastics? My understanding is that these athletes incorporate very little or no weight training at all, yet possess some of the strongest physiques around. The arm and shoulder development of these athletes is extraordinary! [/quote]
great…
what do you think would happen to an olympic gymnast in the NFL? their no weight trained asses would get squashed…
strongest physiques around? you’re kidding right? as compared to what? people that do no physical activity what-so-ever?
gymnasts are strong for their very small size, but they are weak as shit compared to heavier strength athletes (olympic weightlifters, powerlifters, strongmen)…
[quote]Go-Rilla wrote:
Pound4Pound see if this helps.
Go to the gym. Run around with your knees together while flailing your arms over your head yelling “o.k. you sthupid weight lifters…leths all go outside for sthom cardio”.
After you’ve had your no-load ass kicked you may come back to the thread and tell us why you have decided to start lifting.[/quote]
Easy now. At 180lbs I could kick any 220 pound weightlifter with no fighting back-ground. No trying to sound tough but you are the one that starting equating lifting weights to fighting ability.
[quote]Fenris wrote:
Pound4Pound wrote:
Bigger stronger, faster…and more cumbersome, less limber, less agile, less coordinated and less athletic. There is a trade-off for bigger and stronger my friends.
Bullshit. You know nothing. The wrong kind of weight training combined with neglecting your other skills will hamper athletic ability. But long distance running will also hamper the athletic ability of someone whose sport is primarily anaerobic. You have to use an intelligent program that attacks sports requirements and addresses weaknesses.
Countless studies have shown that Olympic weightlifters have sprinting times, jumping heights, and jumping distances equal to Olympic track and field athletes. Are you saying that all of these Olympic athletes are “unathletic?”
All professional MMA fighters use weights, and they’re constantly getting faster, stronger, more agile, and more flexible. My sprints got faster when I started lifting properly, my agility improved, and so did my flexibility. Some guys lose athletic qualities when they lift weights, but some guys are idiots.
As far as doing calisthenics, calisthenics don’t always relate as well to a sport. Linebackers, for instance have to use force against external resistance in their sport, hence weight training. Quinton “Rampage” Jackson picks up opponents and slams them. Can’t train that with calisthenics. Hell, even many jobs. You mentioned lumberjacks in your first post. WTF do you think that they’re doing all day? USING EXTERNAL RESISTANCE!!! So, what, instead of mimicking those motions with weights in the gym we should all go and chop down trees for 8 hours a day?
Not to mention economy of time. Let’s say I do 300 bodyweight squats, 100 push-ups, 100 divebombers, and 20 pullups. To keep progressing, I have to increase those numbers. Maybe I get to 500 squats, 300 pushups, 150 divebombers, and 40 pullups. Well, that workout just took twice as long. Eventually, I have to work out for three hours to get the workout that I used to get in an hour (not to mention destroying my joints from over-repetition). Instead, I can bench press or barbell squat and increase the weight gradually, still only training for an hour at a time.
Bottom line: athletes need to train multiple qualities through different means. Here’s an example:
Strength Endurance: Calisthenics
Speed: Sprinting
Agility: Ladder work
Flexibility: Stretching
Maximal Strength: Squatting, Deadlifting
Power/Speed Strength: Olympic Lifts
Skills/Technique: Specific skill, technique work
All things being equal going into a training program, the athlete that uses a comprehensive approach will always smoke the one that doesn’t.
You seem to forget that you’re on a website where the cutting edge strength and conditioning science is available, so all that you’re doing is showing your ignorance.
Of course, as anti-weightlifting as you seem, I wonder if one of the following things has happened:
A) A weightlifter kicked your ass
B) A weightlifter has taken your girlfriend
C) A weightlifter turned you down for a date
You may wonder why we’re all so hostile to you. Well, consider your first post. There is a gulf of difference between an informed, curious criticism and an ignorant, arrogant, bitter insult.[/quote]
Nice post, you convinced me.
Now some back-ground.
1st of all I’ve trained more, for a longer time, harder and have reached a level of conditioning from weights that exceeds at minimum 90% of the people I’m arguing with.
2nd, after 14 straight years of lifting, I have just recently stopped for the last 4 weeks. The first time I’ve done that in 14 years.
3rd In that time I’ve done sprinting, MMA and bodyweight training daily. I feel better and more athletic than I have in 14 years. Seriously.
4th. I think if anything you all have convinced me that I should resume lifting but realize I want to be athletic and fit as much as strong and powerful. Therefore my routine should reflect that. Instead of 4-5 sessions of weights/week to strive to gain more size and strength, I should hit weights a couple times and maintain focus on sprints, MMA, stretching, plyos and bodyweight excercises as well in order to stay strong and powerful while becoming even more agile, athletic, fast and explosive.
Thanks everyone for their posts…Pound is back on the weights bitch’s!!!
I wanna be like this guy:
[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
At 180lbs I could kick any 220 pound weightlifter with no fighting back-ground. No trying to sound tough but you are the one that starting equating lifting weights to fighting ability.[/quote]
o’brother…not another one…
the toughest guys on the planet are all on internet chat rooms…
[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
I wanna be like this guy:[/quote]
Loser. Go jump some rope.
[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
baretta wrote:
I dont remember seeing any athlete of professional caliber that doesn’t incorporate some sort of weight program…hockey, basketball, football…etc.
Why do some people feel the need to come to a “bodybuilding think tank” and then continue to berate bodybuilding? I dont understand your motives, but your’re an idiot.
Some of the greatest hockey players of all time didn’t lift…Rocket Richard, Gretzky, #4 Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe etc etc
Specifically Gretzky. Do you think any of the stronger, weight trained modern hockey players are going to ever have 3 sonsecutive 200+ point seasons?? Nope.
Larry Bird, Kareem, McHale, Walton, West, Chamberlain…yeah they sucked. Too bad they didn’t lift weights so they could have been half descent.
Who’s the idiot now?
[/quote]
Well, you’re the idiot. Weight training DOES help athletic performance, and simply citing random contemporary atheletes and comparing them with old greats does not convince me in the slightest that weight training is somehow detrimental to performance. Are you trying to tell us that weight training will make you “musclebound” and “slow?” that’s laughable, and hugely generalized.
Look at Olympic Sprinters. very athletic, muscular, fast, lean people right? do you think they lift weights? hell yes! so does almost every other professional sports player nowadays.
By the way, Gretzky was hugely athletic and amazing at hockey no doubt…but it helped that he had some HUGE enforcers on his team protecting him (you think they trained with weights?) combined with the fact that later it became somewhat taboo for someone to take a shot at him.
And with regards to you pointing out random old players who didnt weight train…what about brian urlacher? is he good? mike alstott? troy polamalu? romanowski? tomlinson? ray lewis? jordan? pippen? there are some excellent contemporary players as well.
In the end, weight training is useful, healthy, and when utilized properly, very helpful to athletic performance.