Why Does Bench Lead Shoulder Problems?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

I have been reading wendlers 531, I am not doing the routine I am just reading out of interest. I noticed that all power lifting routines have bench press, for an obvious reason that they compete in that lift. What I wanted to ask is why do power lifters use the flat bench over the incline bench?

A host of peoples books I have taken the time to read argue that the bench press should only be done regularly by power lifters and say that incline or decline put the shoulders in a safer position but don’t expand further. Chad Waterbury is also against the bench press, especially for fighters as he says overhead and pressing without the back on the bench leads to scapula activation or something along those lines, which develops power.

Anyway I was just wondering if anyone could tell me why the flat bench is more dangerous for shoulders than incline and if any power lifters or strength orientated lifter, not necessarily only power lifters use it in training for injury prevention.

For instance, could someone on wendler substitute flat for incline? How would this negatively impact the results.

2

anyone?

3

I wish I could give you some input but I just don’t know. I’ve never had any shoulder issues from bench but then again I train shoulders and press just as much. I’m sure you could change it to flat bench to incline as long as your not a competitive lifter or aspiring competitor.

4

Ive never had shoulder pain from doing a bench press, but I do feel that I developed bad posture from doing a lot of bench presses when I was younger. The main reason people say the bench press is “bad” is because it strengthens the muscles that already tend to be tight from our daily lives of sitting at desks and whatnot.

This leads to poor posture(rounding of the shoulder) and it can lead to shoulder pain. You can certainly run into the same problem with the incline or decline bench as well. I think a lot of people prefer the incline bench for aesthetic reasons because it hits the upper chest which is more aesthetically pleasing than just having a big lower chest AKA gorilla tits (shout out to hodge twins)

5

[quote]Brian14 wrote:
Ive never had shoulder pain from doing a bench press, but I do feel that I developed bad posture from doing a lot of bench presses when I was younger. The main reason people say the bench press is “bad” is because it strengthens the muscles that already tend to be tight from our daily lives of sitting at desks and whatnot. This leads to poor posture(rounding of the shoulder) and it can lead to shoulder pain. You can certainly run into the same problem with the incline or decline bench as well. I think a lot of people prefer the incline bench for aesthetic reasons because it hits the upper chest which is more aesthetically pleasing than just having a big lower chest AKA gorilla tits (shout out to hodge twins)[/quote]

YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH SUGA WALLLZ SNAP CITY

Anyway, back on topic :slight_smile: So is the perceived problem just that it overdevelops the front muscles, leading to bad posture leading to injury down the road? I thought it was because of something inherently problematic on a flat bench press?

6

The only time I’ve ever had shoulder issues from benching was from incline. I flat bench three times per week without any shoulder problems.

However, I also do lots of the following:

DB/cable external rotations
Stretching my internal rotators
Scapular push-ups

The main issue with benching, as explained in this classic article, is that the scapular are locked in place so the serratus anterior doesn’t get activated. The the serratus anterior is weak it’ll get overpowered by the rhomboid and pull the scapular out of position and make your shoulders more vulnerable to injury. Incline and decline benching carry exactly the same issues.

So in addition to the standard advice of doing one or more row for every press, you also need to make sure rows are balanced with some kind of serratus work.

In addition, pressing and most rowing movements internally rotate the shoulder. Most lifters end up with weak, lengthened external rotators and strong short internal rotators. So strengthen those external rotators and stretch the shit out of your internal rotators.

7

[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
The only time I’ve ever had shoulder issues from benching was from incline. I flat bench three times per week without any shoulder problems.

However, I also do lots of the following:

DB/cable external rotations
Stretching my internal rotators
Scapular push-ups

The main issue with benching, as explained in this classic article, is that the scapular are locked in place so the serratus anterior doesn’t get activated. The the serratus anterior is weak it’ll get overpowered by the rhomboid and pull the scapular out of position and make your shoulders more vulnerable to injury. Incline and decline benching carry exactly the same issues.

So in addition to the standard advice of doing one or more row for every press, you also need to make sure rows are balanced with some kind of serratus work.

In addition, pressing and most rowing movements internally rotate the shoulder. Most lifters end up with weak, lengthened external rotators and strong short internal rotators. So strengthen those external rotators and stretch the shit out of your internal rotators.
[/quote]

Wow this is just what I was looking for. Thanks a lot buddy.

Is the PNF stretching kelly starett talks about the way to correctly stretch out your rotars? I have heard people say they do L flies and band pull aparts for corrective work, but I don’t see how these will stretch anything properly as if you have an imbalance surely your dominant muscles will be doing the work on the stretches and mobility movements rather than the dormant ones.

8

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
The only time I’ve ever had shoulder issues from benching was from incline. I flat bench three times per week without any shoulder problems.

However, I also do lots of the following:

DB/cable external rotations
Stretching my internal rotators
Scapular push-ups

The main issue with benching, as explained in this classic article, is that the scapular are locked in place so the serratus anterior doesn’t get activated. The the serratus anterior is weak it’ll get overpowered by the rhomboid and pull the scapular out of position and make your shoulders more vulnerable to injury. Incline and decline benching carry exactly the same issues.

So in addition to the standard advice of doing one or more row for every press, you also need to make sure rows are balanced with some kind of serratus work.

In addition, pressing and most rowing movements internally rotate the shoulder. Most lifters end up with weak, lengthened external rotators and strong short internal rotators. So strengthen those external rotators and stretch the shit out of your internal rotators.
[/quote]

Wow this is just what I was looking for. Thanks a lot buddy.

Is the PNF stretching kelly starett talks about the way to correctly stretch out your rotars? I have heard people say they do L flies and band pull aparts for corrective work, but I don’t see how these will stretch anything properly as if you have an imbalance surely your dominant muscles will be doing the work on the stretches and mobility movements rather than the dormant ones.[/quote]

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that if your rowing movements cause internal rotation of your shoulders, you may be doing them wrong.

9

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
The only time I’ve ever had shoulder issues from benching was from incline. I flat bench three times per week without any shoulder problems.

However, I also do lots of the following:

DB/cable external rotations
Stretching my internal rotators
Scapular push-ups

The main issue with benching, as explained in this classic article, is that the scapular are locked in place so the serratus anterior doesn’t get activated. The the serratus anterior is weak it’ll get overpowered by the rhomboid and pull the scapular out of position and make your shoulders more vulnerable to injury. Incline and decline benching carry exactly the same issues.

So in addition to the standard advice of doing one or more row for every press, you also need to make sure rows are balanced with some kind of serratus work.

In addition, pressing and most rowing movements internally rotate the shoulder. Most lifters end up with weak, lengthened external rotators and strong short internal rotators. So strengthen those external rotators and stretch the shit out of your internal rotators.
[/quote]

Wow this is just what I was looking for. Thanks a lot buddy.

Is the PNF stretching kelly starett talks about the way to correctly stretch out your rotars? I have heard people say they do L flies and band pull aparts for corrective work, but I don’t see how these will stretch anything properly as if you have an imbalance surely your dominant muscles will be doing the work on the stretches and mobility movements rather than the dormant ones.[/quote]

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that if your rowing movements cause internal rotation of your shoulders, you may be doing them wrong. [/quote]

The lats are internal rotators. If you’re not hitting your lats with your rowing movements, you may be doing them wrong.

10

[quote]sharkOnesie wrote:

[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
The only time I’ve ever had shoulder issues from benching was from incline. I flat bench three times per week without any shoulder problems.

However, I also do lots of the following:

DB/cable external rotations
Stretching my internal rotators
Scapular push-ups

The main issue with benching, as explained in this classic article, is that the scapular are locked in place so the serratus anterior doesn’t get activated. The the serratus anterior is weak it’ll get overpowered by the rhomboid and pull the scapular out of position and make your shoulders more vulnerable to injury. Incline and decline benching carry exactly the same issues.

So in addition to the standard advice of doing one or more row for every press, you also need to make sure rows are balanced with some kind of serratus work.

In addition, pressing and most rowing movements internally rotate the shoulder. Most lifters end up with weak, lengthened external rotators and strong short internal rotators. So strengthen those external rotators and stretch the shit out of your internal rotators.
[/quote]

Wow this is just what I was looking for. Thanks a lot buddy.

Is the PNF stretching kelly starett talks about the way to correctly stretch out your rotars? I have heard people say they do L flies and band pull aparts for corrective work, but I don’t see how these will stretch anything properly as if you have an imbalance surely your dominant muscles will be doing the work on the stretches and mobility movements rather than the dormant ones.[/quote]

This is what works for me in terms of shoulder health while benching a lot:

For every pushing rep do at least one pull (rows, pull-ups, face pulls, pull-aparts)

For every pulling rep do two scap push-ups.

For every push or row/pull-up rep do at least one DB or Cable external rotation.

Stretch your chest and subscapularis often (just youtube subscapularis stretch).

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.

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Allow me to clarify; if your shoulders are being STRESSED because of rowing movements, you’re probably doing them wrong.

13

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Allow me to clarify; if your shoulders are being STRESSED because of rowing movements, you’re probably doing them wrong. [/quote]

It depends which head of the deltoid you’re talking about.

Anyway, that’s beside the point. The point is that rows on their own aren’t sufficient to balance pressing and keep shoulders healthy, as is the standard advice given (including in the 5/3/1 manual).

Rows on their own, without other exercises to strengthen the serratus anterior and external rotators, will exacerbate common muscular imbalances which increase the risk of shoulder injuries from benching.

14

Shark, since i know you’re a combat sports person, my tip would be to make double sure on all external rotation work and tight muscle stretches. If you think about what is happening with repetitive stress leading to injuring yourself on the bench, it goes double or triple for a guy who throws literally hunderds of punches a day in training. This is aside from the scapula being locked in place as was already mentioned… It’s useful but only if you really really concentrate on prehab. I am not convinced ithe repetitive action of thousand punches a week or more can be fully balanced out. Maybe, maybe not. But proceed with caustion. That was another reason Waterbury didnt like them for fighters.

15

I do facepulls between every set of bench press, as well as doing back on its own. I followed 531 most of the last three years. The main reason I lift is for athletics, and this has worked well for me. 2cents

16

[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Allow me to clarify; if your shoulders are being STRESSED because of rowing movements, you’re probably doing them wrong. [/quote]

It depends which head of the deltoid you’re talking about.

Anyway, that’s beside the point. The point is that rows on their own aren’t sufficient to balance pressing and keep shoulders healthy, as is the standard advice given (including in the 5/3/1 manual).

Rows on their own, without other exercises to strengthen the serratus anterior and external rotators, will exacerbate common muscular imbalances which increase the risk of shoulder injuries from benching. [/quote]

Fair enough.