[quote]utHAUS wrote:
Agree that 120’s are harder than 240 flat… by far.
I’m not sure if I read it here, but I remember seeing that you can take a rep range for a weight on a barbell pressing exercise, and multiply the weight by 80% for the dumbbell equivalent.[/quote]
Not to derail this thread, but do you know if the same is true for pulling movements? It’s the opposite, but is it something along the lines of 80% more on db pulling than bb pulling?
Just curious.
Uh… Dudes there is no exact ratio of weight between any 2 movements. Anyones DB versus BB benching will vary based on any number of factors(arm lenth, torso thickness, tricep strength versus pectoral/front delt strength, and on and on and on…). The same is true for squat to deadlift ratios or DB rows versus BB rows. Just try to get stonger at everything and things should go ok(I know, overly simplified blanket statement).
As an example, I have, most of the time, been able to 1RM about 100lbs or so more than what I can do with DBs for 3-5 reps. This is flat bench I am talking about here.
This is me benching 171.2LB DBs for a set of 4.
[video]1634[/video]
The last time I tested my BB bench, I managed 450LBs. Does this mean there is some magical ratio that will tell me how much I can gain on one in relation to the other? No, not at all. The only corellation that I have found is that when I have hit a plateau on BB bench, I switch to DBs for a while, and make small improvements. After uping my DB poundages, my BB poundage will go up. Again, no magic number here, I just find progression from micro loading to be easier with DBs than with a BB. Your results may vary.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]smithers584 wrote:
I was only explaining where I was coming from, and stated “sorry if I took it the wrong way”.
Second - You arent asking him because you want to see him press 120 lb DB’s, you are asking him to call “bullshit”. 120 lb DB is not impressive (good, but not holy fucking shit good), so your excuse of “I like watching people move big weights” is, in your terms, bullshit.
You asked for the vids, therefore you are asking to validate his claims, thus you are asking him to prove it to you (and others who can see it, but you asked).
You came out with a “seemingly” typical tough guy attitude, I called you out on it, and you are back tracking now.
Just stating my opinion, to each his own. Why do you even give a shit whether he can do it or not? Does it make you feel like less of a man? Or would it make you feel better if he couldnt prove it?
[/quote]
Obviously I dont believe him. Not becuase I want to look tough. Because I dont believe most of the shit posted on here. Is that really so hard to understand?
I called out the depth of the DB press. Because someone pressing 120’s should be pressing well over 300lbs with a barbell, IMO. Something is off, most people can see that.
Are you done hijacking the thread trying to start an argument?
[/quote]
I agree, My flat bench was higher than 300 when I hit 120’s with perfect form for a set of 8.
My gym only goes up to 150’s, and those are a bitch to get into place, 170’s much be a bitch to knee up.
I believe this implies you could be hiding behind the internet as well?? …
[quote]ridethecliche wrote:
[quote]utHAUS wrote:
Agree that 120’s are harder than 240 flat… by far.
I’m not sure if I read it here, but I remember seeing that you can take a rep range for a weight on a barbell pressing exercise, and multiply the weight by 80% for the dumbbell equivalent.[/quote]
Not to derail this thread, but do you know if the same is true for pulling movements? It’s the opposite, but is it something along the lines of 80% more on db pulling than bb pulling?
Just curious. [/quote]
I would imagine no, only because you can stablize with your other hand with DB;s, and with a BB you will end up using some english when you go heavy…
Just a guess really. Pardon and spelling errors
[quote]Westclock wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]smithers584 wrote:
I was only explaining where I was coming from, and stated “sorry if I took it the wrong way”.
Second - You arent asking him because you want to see him press 120 lb DB’s, you are asking him to call “bullshit”. 120 lb DB is not impressive (good, but not holy fucking shit good), so your excuse of “I like watching people move big weights” is, in your terms, bullshit.
You asked for the vids, therefore you are asking to validate his claims, thus you are asking him to prove it to you (and others who can see it, but you asked).
You came out with a “seemingly” typical tough guy attitude, I called you out on it, and you are back tracking now.
Just stating my opinion, to each his own. Why do you even give a shit whether he can do it or not? Does it make you feel like less of a man? Or would it make you feel better if he couldnt prove it?
[/quote]
Obviously I dont believe him. Not becuase I want to look tough. Because I dont believe most of the shit posted on here. Is that really so hard to understand?
I called out the depth of the DB press. Because someone pressing 120’s should be pressing well over 300lbs with a barbell, IMO. Something is off, most people can see that.
Are you done hijacking the thread trying to start an argument?
[/quote]
I agree, My flat bench was higher than 300 when I hit 120’s with perfect form for a set of 8.
My gym only goes up to 150’s, and those are a bitch to get into place, 170’s much be a bitch to knee up.
[/quote]
Do you kick them bitches up and start arms extended, or just kick them back and start from your chest?
Concerning the bench press:
I used to be a pretty strong bencher, but never had good pecs.
Flat and incline bp tend to recruit too much of my delts and tris. And I have shitty tris and good delts. Always had good delts even before I started on direct delt work, so I guess that my flat benching mostly developed my delts.
Decline recruits a lot more of my pecs, I feel it mainly in the sternal part of the pec major.
Generally speaking, though, db variations of horizontal pressing work a lot better for me than bb versions. Out of safety reasons, though, I prefer to do them unilaterally.
@DoveOfWar08
Good job, man.
@countingbeans
Good job, too, kiddo. You don’t look like much, but you’re strong.
[quote]FattyFat wrote:
@countingbeans
Good job, too, kiddo. You don’t look like much, but you’re strong.
[/quote]
LOL, thanks man. I apparently am going to have to weight damn close to 300lbs…
[quote]pdub690 wrote:
I believe this implies you could be hiding behind the internet as well?? … [/quote]
Actually, no. In fact, that doesnt even make any sense, I wasnt asking anyone to prove themselves to me, I was just saying give the guy a break, and who gives a shit if he is lying or not. Its the internet, if you spent time worrying about every lie everyone told, you would have no life.
Back on topic.
There is a guy in my gym, about 165 lbs, looks small, but benches 350 lbs + on the BB bench. Same guy cant press shit with DB’s.
Also, a few powerlifters in my gym have great BB presses, but their DB presses suck, comparatively speaking.
On the other hand, plenty of bigger body building types who have impressive DB presses, cant BB press for shit.
Watching the same people over the past 3 years in my gym, its obvious that you cannot accurately make any assumptions about the correlation between the ability of one person to DB press and their ability to BB press.
[quote]oinky222 wrote:
ha ok. i dont own a video camera but i’ll see what i can do. i go low enough so the db’s lightly touch the top of my chest, but i don’t bounce them or anything. are 120’s really that impressive? can most people who bench the 120 db’s bench 315?
[/quote]
Do you mean 120 for reps and 315 for the same amount of reps? Or 315 as 1RM?
I did my (very) low incline dumbell press after my 5/3/1 bench session and I got 115x6. I think I would’ve gotten 120’s for an ugly 6 if I did them at the start of my work out. But the most reps I got for 315 is 2. All the big guys in my gym work with 130’s and up.
In my mind, I’ve always seen the 120’s db equivalent to 315 bb as far a milestone’s go.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]FattyFat wrote:
@countingbeans
Good job, too, kiddo. You don’t look like much, but you’re strong.
[/quote]
LOL, thanks man. I apparently am going to have to weight damn close to 300lbs…[/quote]
Been there. Done that.
I realise pec-tears are common in advanced juiced lifters and the main reason for Dante’s flat bench hate but are there any cases of a natural suffering a pec-tear from flat benching?
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
I realise pec-tears are common in advanced juiced lifters and the main reason for Dante’s flat bench hate but are there any cases of a natural suffering a pec-tear from flat benching?
[/quote]
jezus christ
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
I realise pec-tears are common in advanced juiced lifters and the main reason for Dante’s flat bench hate but are there any cases of a natural suffering a pec-tear from flat benching?
[/quote]
Are you serious? Please say you are joking and the rest of us just didn’t get it.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
I realise pec-tears are common in advanced juiced lifters and the main reason for Dante’s flat bench hate but are there any cases of a natural suffering a pec-tear from flat benching?
[/quote]
jezus christ[/quote]
Your prayers are unheard…He can not help you now. You are on T-Nation.
Luciferi Dominie! Follis Invinctus!
[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
I realise pec-tears are common in advanced juiced lifters and the main reason for Dante’s flat bench hate but are there any cases of a natural suffering a pec-tear from flat benching?
[/quote]
Are you serious? Please say you are joking and the rest of us just didn’t get it. [/quote]
So what’s the problem?
Dante & dogcrapp were brought up earlier as examples of trainers dropping flat bench due to injury risk. I understand this is due to the physique spoiling risk of a pec-tear yet DC also links this risk directly to steroid use due to both the increased pressure on connective tissue and suspected damage to tendons. I won’t link to the sites but this isn’t very controversial.
What I haven’t heard of is any reports of pec tears from natural trainees hence my question. Its a reasonable question with perhaps a very simple answer.
Why does this automatically have to revolve around pectorals?
Why Bench Press = er… Triceps?
Flat bench does fuck all for my peckzzzz but it’s a staple for my tricep devleopment. That and decline bench.
As for the BB/DB thing, I remember when I hit 360lbs (BB) I could do 145lb DBs (singles). Since then I have had no access to DBs above 112.5lbs, so I have no idea how it matches up now.
[quote]Dave_ wrote:
Why does this automatically have to revolve around pectorals?
Why Bench Press = er… Triceps?
Flat bench does fuck all for my peckzzzz but it’s a staple for my tricep devleopment. That and decline bench.
As for the BB/DB thing, I remember when I hit 360lbs (BB) I could do 145lb DBs (singles). Since then I have had no access to DBs above 112.5lbs, so I have no idea how it matches up now. [/quote]
I’ve always been rather weak when it comes to DB vs. BB bench ratio compared to other people… Early on in my training there were guys repping DB’s 20-30 lbs heavier than the ones I was using even though my flat (both close and wide) bench was 40+ lbs over theirs (for reps) and I could destroy them on any kind of overhead pressing exercise… Go figure.
For my chest, I pretty much rely on HS work now. Beats everything else as far as I’m concerned.
Before I got access to those, I had to rely on DB work and some incline BB pressing, but they simply don’t compare…
I can actually make the flat bench work pretty well for my chest… But that requires me to set up in a way which hurts my shoulders (bicep tendon and supraspinatus it seems) and is pretty much what gets everyone to tear their pecs sooner or later… So no, thank you.
Flat benching… Only kind I still do is with a close-ish grip (not the 4-6 inch crap every author tells you to do) and competition-style setup and execution (elbows tucked all the way on the way down, flaring on the way up… PL setup with not too much arch…) as that is - and has always been - my strongest pressing exercise. Much nicer on the shoulders even though it requires more front delt strength.
I classify that as a tricep exercise… Oh, and suicide grip of course.
Flat bench has always been a “focused” exercise for me… Either it hits my chest well (and gets me damn close to injury) while doing jackshit for my delts and tris, or it hits my tris and delts well, feels much better, but effect on the chest is negligible.
Same goes for the squat… Originally, my squats were all quad, now they’re all ass+some hams (negligible actually, it’s like they’re using the hams but just don’t do shit for them).
Come to think of it, the only lift which has really benefited me in several major areas instead of only one or two is the sumo deadlift (I’m not built for conventional)… Hits everything from the hams and low back to the upper back and traps, provided I do them in a certain way… But squats and bench? All that “grow all-over/get strong all-over” talk does not seem to apply to me at all when it comes to those two lifts.
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
I realise pec-tears are common in advanced juiced lifters and the main reason for Dante’s flat bench hate but are there any cases of a natural suffering a pec-tear from flat benching?
[/quote]
Are you serious? Please say you are joking and the rest of us just didn’t get it. [/quote]
So what’s the problem?
Dante & dogcrapp were brought up earlier as examples of trainers dropping flat bench due to injury risk. I understand this is due to the physique spoiling risk of a pec-tear yet DC also links this risk directly to steroid use due to both the increased pressure on connective tissue and suspected damage to tendons. I won’t link to the sites but this isn’t very controversial.
What I haven’t heard of is any reports of pec tears from natural trainees hence my question. Its a reasonable question with perhaps a very simple answer.
[/quote]
The problem is that it’s a moronic question. Do you really think out of the millions of guys who have benched throughout history that none of those guys who were “natural” never tore a pec? Anytime you push the envelope you are going to be close to injury, period. You just have to learn when to back off. The only way thatis a reasonable question is if you are looking for a reason not push yourself.
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
[quote]lewhitehurst wrote:
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
I realise pec-tears are common in advanced juiced lifters and the main reason for Dante’s flat bench hate but are there any cases of a natural suffering a pec-tear from flat benching?
[/quote]
Are you serious? Please say you are joking and the rest of us just didn’t get it. [/quote]
So what’s the problem?
Dante & dogcrapp were brought up earlier as examples of trainers dropping flat bench due to injury risk. I understand this is due to the physique spoiling risk of a pec-tear yet DC also links this risk directly to steroid use due to both the increased pressure on connective tissue and suspected damage to tendons.[/quote] There is an awful lot more to this than what you wrote here… At least quote the whole post(s) before this turns into another huge-ass argument over what some guy supposedly said. [quote] I won’t link to the sites but this isn’t very controversial. [/quote] The way you summarized it, it certainly is. [quote]
What I haven’t heard of is any reports of pec tears from natural trainees hence my question. Its a reasonable question with perhaps a very simple answer.
[/quote]
Hm. Off the top of my head, the natural trainees I know (and the guys on here) seem to mostly end up hurting their shoulders, even with baby-weights…
Small wonder, as all of those which I’ve seen bench in person or via video (or as can be seen from their posts) have apparently never put any thought into their setup/execution and do it the way one usually finds the exercise described in a bodybuilding book (lay down on the bench, take a grip wider than shoulder-width, lower the bar to the chest, press back up. Ugh).
That even goes for a lot of advanced guys… It’s just something that the bodybuilding community pays little attention to/is not exposed to much, unfortunately.
Oh, there is Layne Norton of course, who tore his pec(s?) doing reverse-band benching or something like that. He was doing it in a stupid way though by his own admission… Made several easy-to-avoid mistakes.
I don’t see many people put up even half-impressive numbers on the bench (or any other exercise) anyway (entirely their fault usually).
I’m guessing that that is the reason why you don’t see many naturals tear their pecs.
The many shoulder injuries can be accomplished simply by using the same weight over and over with a setup and execution not suited to your individual physiology (practically sawing through your supraspinatus and bicep long-head tendon over time). This is pretty much what you see many people do in the gym… They go in there year after year and progress little, but they do use shitty setup.
Shit, you can blow your shoulders doing bodyweight pushups. But it’s damn hard to tear a pec that way I’d say…
The pec tendons themselves are not being ground to dust (slightly exaggerating here) between bones after all (I think so, anyway, someone like professor X who has actually studied the human body in detail will know better) during the bench press, while the supraspinatus and bicep tendon can (worse once inflammation occurs) depending on your shoulder bone structure and your setup etc…