[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Not sure why all my points have been ignored, but I find it hysterical that some brought up Liston in comparison to Tyson’s power and how Ali would fare when it’s obvious to anyone with a brain that Liston threw that fight. [/quote]
I for one wasn’t trying to ignore your posts, but we have both beat this horse a bunch in the combat forum.
Liston was so mobbed up that there really should be question marks on most of his fights. He is also another fighter who’s “prime” wasn’t fully in the light.
Growing up Tyson was my favorite fighter. I liked him before he won the title. IF he had the in ring IQ/“heart” of any of the fighters talked about in this thread he would have been even more epic. I am simply not sold on the idea that Cus could have steered him right or built that into him. Irish mentioned the Teddy Atlas incident, granted only one data point for Tyson when Cus was around.
I think if Tyson was able to get Ali in trouble early, than it goes his way. At his best he was a supremely destructive force in the ring. The reason I pick Ali is that he has the advantages if that doesn’t happen. He always had a great gas tank. Four factors that Ali would bring to the table make him a special foil for Tyson:
1.)Gas Tank-
Ok, for the record I don’t think it is fair to say that Tyson would gas so much as simply use up the fissile material needed to bring that much ass whooping. Still, those of us picking Ali all seem to hold any damage done by Ali would happen in the later rounds so Ali having a big enough tank to get to those rounds and be effective is pretty damn important. Also, how long is this fight? 10, 12, 16 rounds? I think longer is better for Ali.
2.)Ali COULD fight backing up-
Tyson ate guys who tried to box/circle out on him for lunch. Spinks is the prime example. Ali however was simply in another class at backing up, but still being able to land damaging shots. I contend that Tyson was always vulnerable when he closed and started to launch a punch. His footwork, speed, timing, and overall menace minimized this opening, but it was always there. When most guys are forced to back up they lost any ability to capitalize on Tyson’s vulnerability (Holifield did this by stepping in, rather than back). Ali could still land telling shots.
3.)Chin-
This goes with 2. The proven way to take Tyson apart was to hit him as he comes in. Douglas did it. Holifield did it. Lewis did it. Granted none of those fights are considered “prime” Tyson, but the fighters aren’t mentioned as being in Ali’s league either. Ali had one of the great chins in boxing history. Certainly Tyson could still KO him, but he is less likely to do it as easily as against a fighter with only a “good” chin. If that translates into taking more time, than this magnifies 1 and 2.
4.)Mental Factors- I HATE putting this in here, but it is really the biggest one. If it wasn’t on the list than the fact Ali left years of his life in the ring against Frazier, and the idea that Tyson would be more of a buzz saw than Joe, would turn this into a pick 'em fight to me. Tyson wins if he hurts Ali early and often. He does damage. Ali tries to back up and survive. Instead he is battered and goes somewhere before the half way point of a 12 round fight. Or Tyson doesn’t and gets decisioned or KO’d late in the fight.
The problem is Ali made a big deal out of pre-fight hype and shenanigans. He would have made fun of Mike. He would have questioned his manhood. He would have found a way to pull the race card. He would have done any and everything to get Tyson to implode. I think Tyson would have been especially vulnerable to this behavior.
I don’t believe the “best” Tyson was without the mental issues that he displayed later when frustrated in the ring. He just never got tested by anyone enough to need to dig deep enough that he came up lacking. I am not sold that the theoretical “prime” Tyson would have developed the ability to adapt and overcome to having his first couple game plans shot to hell.
Regards,
Robert A