Who would win: prime Ali vs prime Tyson

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]fnf wrote:
For me you have to have Prime Ali, which is before his 3+year suspension VS prime Tyson, which for me would be pre Robin Givens.

I’ve seen prime Ali in black and white, two things jumped out: fast and precise jab and quickness of feet, which allowed him to evade punches in a way which were not textbook. When I remember watching every single Tyson fight when he came up, I remember his awesome right hand body shot-upper cut combination, head movement, power and speed.

I believe Ali’s long, fast jab would give Tyson a hard time. If I recall correctly, an old Holmes before he was KO’d, was having success using it against Tyson. And yes it’s post Givens, but Douglass sadly dominated Tyson using his jab to set up his combinations.

Foreman does not have the combinations of Tyson, but Foreman hit an old Ali for 6+ rounds in the body. I do think Foreman’s single shot was just as strong as Tyson’s, and Ali took those round after round.

I give it to Ali by decision.

[/quote]

Like I said, everyone is looking at the wrong fights as an example of Ali’s “prime.”

THIS was his prime. THIS was how he’d fight against Tyson’s peekaboo style, and that jab is exactly what he would use to keep Tyson from even getting near him for the first four rounds.

Seriously, if you haven’t watched this, watch it. Ali’s jab splits Patterson’s peekaboo in half constantly, and it’s so fast, and so accurate, and his reach is so much longer… Tyson would have had a real problem coming in against him.

Muhammad Ali is not an aging Larry Holmes. He’s not Trevor Berbick. He would not fight like they did.

So are you saying I’m looking at the wrong fights? I remember watching a lot of Ali’s fights and to me his prime was when it was in black and white footage. His jab was fast and precise in his younger days. His footwork would help him get around the ring as he pumped his jab in Tyson’s face.

The reason I put Larry Holmes and Douglas as examples was because those fighters knew how to use a jab. Holmes was just too old to fight a young Tyson.

Ali by decision.

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[quote]fnf wrote:

So are you saying I’m looking at the wrong fights? I remember watching a lot of Ali’s fights and to me his prime was when it was in black and white footage. His jab was fast and precise in his younger days. His footwork would help him get around the ring as he pumped his jab in Tyson’s face.

The reason I put Larry Holmes and Douglas as examples was because those fighters knew how to use a jab. Holmes was just too old to fight a young Tyson.

Ali by decision.
[/quote]

Oh no, I’m agreeing with you totally.

I’m saying most people’s idea of Ali is the Frazier/Foreman/Norton days, not the Patterson/Liston ones.

63

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]fnf wrote:
For me you have to have Prime Ali, which is before his 3+year suspension VS prime Tyson, which for me would be pre Robin Givens.

I’ve seen prime Ali in black and white, two things jumped out: fast and precise jab and quickness of feet, which allowed him to evade punches in a way which were not textbook. When I remember watching every single Tyson fight when he came up, I remember his awesome right hand body shot-upper cut combination, head movement, power and speed.

I believe Ali’s long, fast jab would give Tyson a hard time. If I recall correctly, an old Holmes before he was KO’d, was having success using it against Tyson. And yes it’s post Givens, but Douglass sadly dominated Tyson using his jab to set up his combinations.

Foreman does not have the combinations of Tyson, but Foreman hit an old Ali for 6+ rounds in the body. I do think Foreman’s single shot was just as strong as Tyson’s, and Ali took those round after round.

I give it to Ali by decision.

[/quote]

Like I said, everyone is looking at the wrong fights as an example of Ali’s “prime.”

THIS was his prime. THIS was how he’d fight against Tyson’s peekaboo style, and that jab is exactly what he would use to keep Tyson from even getting near him for the first four rounds.

Seriously, if you haven’t watched this, watch it. Ali’s jab splits Patterson’s peekaboo in half constantly, and it’s so fast, and so accurate, and his reach is so much longer… Tyson would have had a real problem coming in against him.

Muhammad Ali is not an aging Larry Holmes. He’s not Trevor Berbick. He would not fight like they did.

FACT.

Prime Ali will be all in Black 'n White footage.

Watch the lighting jab and watch the footwork. He would turn and pop Tyson all night. He would circle him into hard right hands… all night. He would demoralize Mike. His feet and reach. If Ali (Prime) didn’t want you to be inside… you weren’t getting inside.

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The Ali/Patterson fight and the 38year old out of shape Holmes/Tyson fight are perfect. I’d heed Holmes’ words in that HBO series on Ali vs Tyson. After all…he worked with Ali many a time in his camps and knew and fought Tyson in his prime.

Putting those vids “together” Ali wins round 3 and on. And Holmes was freakin Slower than Tyson… I’d say Ali makes Tyson’s face bleed by round 8 or knocks him out in 8 or 9. Thats where Id put my money. And a younger Larry Holmes would win as well. Tyson has earned the right to belong with the Elite… but that is all.

Patterson’s left completely negated in that video…Look how good Ali’s left truly is. Judicious with that right. And the fact Holmes took that fight against Tyson at 38 should say something about what his camp really thought of Tyson…even if it was a nice payday. It’s too bad Tyson didn’t have better challengers in that dead era, though.

Few fighters proved themselves as well as Ali against a variety of styles and opponents. And he had that all important factor to match Tyson, as showed in that Patterson clip…Speed.

There is truth in Tyson’s own words… he loses.

Edit:
Holyfield and Lewis both revealed the myth that was Tyson. He had his limitations.

There is beauty in being 20, 21 years old with Tyson’s skills. But there were fighters that went the distance with him at that age. Going the distance against a fighter of the caliber of Ali… he doesnt stand a chance.

I’m Out.

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[quote]Brett620 wrote:
you guys are forgetting the mental aspect of the game.

  1. Ali was the best. The greatest there ever was in this regard.

  2. Tyson was the weakest.

Advantage to whom?

And would said advantage play a role? Yes, it would play a MAJOR role.

This wouldn’t be two guys sparring in a guy with no audience. This would be a 9 month build-up with 24/7 media coverage that Iron-Mike would not be able to escape from. And when it came down from them to “box”, Ali’s clowning in the ring would disrupt and make Tyson foul him repeatedly. Tyson could catch him of course ( if he does, it has to be early- Mike can’t go into the deep waters), but if they fought 10 times, I like Ali 7/10.

I mean, you guy that are picking Tyson:

  1. Do you know/follow boxing?

  2. Did you see what Lennox did to poor Mike?

Now LL is longer than Ali, but that will show you what someone with a long jab and a hard right hand will do that that 5’10" Peek-a-Boo style.[/quote]

  1. Yes, I am a boxer.

  2. Did you see what Larry Holmes did to poor Ali?

Again you really shouldnt put much stock in tyson’s late career, its no more fair to use those as examples than it is to use Ali’s late career where he was a punching bag.

Tyson was DONE, he was a full blown alcoholic, he had a cocaine habit was mentally checked out of the fight game and was showing up for a paycheck. The dude’s personal life was a complete and utter disaster.

Thats not some revisionist history either, every boxing commentator and writer were continually pointing to tyson’s diminished technical skills and his increasingly worse condition he showed up to the ring in.

The comment regarding the peekaboo style is non sequitur, Tyson’s style IS designed with facing taller guys that like to use long rangy jabs and stay out of range. That’s the whole purpose of the head movement and the exploding to different positions. Contrast how Tyson fights to how Jose Torres fights - both are D’amato trained fighters.

66

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
you guys are forgetting the mental aspect of the game.

  1. Ali was the best. The greatest there ever was in this regard.

  2. Tyson was the weakest.

Advantage to whom?

And would said advantage play a role? Yes, it would play a MAJOR role.

This wouldn’t be two guys sparring in a guy with no audience. This would be a 9 month build-up with 24/7 media coverage that Iron-Mike would not be able to escape from. And when it came down from them to “box”, Ali’s clowning in the ring would disrupt and make Tyson foul him repeatedly. Tyson could catch him of course ( if he does, it has to be early- Mike can’t go into the deep waters), but if they fought 10 times, I like Ali 7/10.

I mean, you guy that are picking Tyson:

  1. Do you know/follow boxing?

  2. Did you see what Lennox did to poor Mike?

Now LL is longer than Ali, but that will show you what someone with a long jab and a hard right hand will do that that 5’10" Peek-a-Boo style.[/quote]

  1. Yes, I am a boxer.

  2. Did you see what Larry Holmes did to poor Ali?

Again you really shouldnt put much stock in tyson’s late career, its no more fair to use those as examples than it is to use Ali’s late career where he was a punching bag.

Tyson was DONE, he was a full blown alcoholic, he had a cocaine habit was mentally checked out of the fight game and was showing up for a paycheck. The dude’s personal life was a complete and utter disaster.

Thats not some revisionist history either, every boxing commentator and writer were continually pointing to tyson’s diminished technical skills and his increasingly worse condition he showed up to the ring in.

The comment regarding the peekaboo style is non sequitur, Tyson’s style IS designed with facing taller guys that like to use long rangy jabs and stay out of range. That’s the whole purpose of the head movement and the exploding to different positions. Contrast how Tyson fights to how Jose Torres fights - both are D’amato trained fighters.[/quote]

So you bring up Holmes/Ali while defending “not putting much stock in Tyson’s later career”???

Look, you got to admit. Ali at that stage was waaaaay beyond Mike at any stage he fought at. And Look at the length of Ali’s career, and at the end he was STILL fighting guys like Larry!

I respect Tyson’s skills. Tyson is top 5 HW all time. I love his explosiveness and power. And I love him as a finisher. If he hurts you, he finishes you.

But Prime Ali, he’s too fast and he’s too smart. He wouldn’t get caught. Watch his jab, watch his feet. He would not fall into traps. He was tough, he would not be intimidated, he would play mind games, etc. Ali has proven he can got 15 brutal rounds, can Mike? Ali has never been knocked out. Mike?

Remember, this is a boxing match. NOT A STREET FIGHT.

The jab would control the fight and break/disrupt Mike’s ryhtem on the way in. He would be blinded, pushed, and controlled with the reach.

I mean, look at the resumes. Mike has LOST to some Great guys (Lewis, Holyfield x2), a good one (Douglas) and others (Williams, McBride).
Ali’s is a whos-who of boxing Heavyweights of that era.

67

^^^
finally someone that knows boxing

68

k, just watched that ‘prime’ ali fight, look at how he constantly back peddles himself into the corner and crosses his feet over, against tyson thats goodnight. Stop saying ali was faster, tyson was blatently faster than ali. When I used to box all my coaches who were top guys such as the hitman hatton, all agreed that tyson would destroy ali.

Learn about boxing and understand styles before putting an opinion in, ali would get owned, and it wouldnt even be close. Just for the record Lennox was better than Ali anyway, so stop using that plus he thought an out of shape tyson.

69

[quote]Charged wrote:
k, just watched that ‘prime’ ali fight, look at how he constantly back peddles himself into the corner and crosses his feet over, against tyson thats goodnight. Stop saying ali was faster, tyson was blatently faster than ali. When I used to box all my coaches who were top guys such as the hitman hatton, all agreed that tyson would destroy ali.

Learn about boxing and understand styles before putting an opinion in, ali would get owned, and it wouldnt even be close. Just for the record Lennox was better than Ali anyway, so stop using that plus he thought an out of shape tyson.[/quote]

Huh, “Top Guys” DOES NOT = “Hitman Hatton”

LOL

I think you lost your credibility, sir.

Backpeddling? Yep. Watch him do it while double and tripling the jab. and when he get close to the closer, pivot and then hard right hand or a check hook. Watch him skip, watch his lateral movement for a man his size.

Tyson would walk into leather all night. Watch the clip FightingIrish posted against Patterson. Imagine the jab splitting the guard and him stepping around to hit him with a right hand on the temple. And every time Mike have to reset and fins Ali because he “backpeddled” 10 feet away.

70

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
you guys are forgetting the mental aspect of the game.

  1. Ali was the best. The greatest there ever was in this regard.

  2. Tyson was the weakest.

Advantage to whom?

And would said advantage play a role? Yes, it would play a MAJOR role.

This wouldn’t be two guys sparring in a guy with no audience. This would be a 9 month build-up with 24/7 media coverage that Iron-Mike would not be able to escape from. And when it came down from them to “box”, Ali’s clowning in the ring would disrupt and make Tyson foul him repeatedly. Tyson could catch him of course ( if he does, it has to be early- Mike can’t go into the deep waters), but if they fought 10 times, I like Ali 7/10.

I mean, you guy that are picking Tyson:

  1. Do you know/follow boxing?

  2. Did you see what Lennox did to poor Mike?

Now LL is longer than Ali, but that will show you what someone with a long jab and a hard right hand will do that that 5’10" Peek-a-Boo style.[/quote]

  1. Yes, I am a boxer.

  2. Did you see what Larry Holmes did to poor Ali?

Again you really shouldnt put much stock in tyson’s late career, its no more fair to use those as examples than it is to use Ali’s late career where he was a punching bag.

Tyson was DONE, he was a full blown alcoholic, he had a cocaine habit was mentally checked out of the fight game and was showing up for a paycheck. The dude’s personal life was a complete and utter disaster.

Thats not some revisionist history either, every boxing commentator and writer were continually pointing to tyson’s diminished technical skills and his increasingly worse condition he showed up to the ring in.

The comment regarding the peekaboo style is non sequitur, Tyson’s style IS designed with facing taller guys that like to use long rangy jabs and stay out of range. That’s the whole purpose of the head movement and the exploding to different positions. Contrast how Tyson fights to how Jose Torres fights - both are D’amato trained fighters.[/quote]

So you bring up Holmes/Ali while defending “not putting much stock in Tyson’s later career”???

Look, you got to admit. Ali at that stage was waaaaay beyond Mike at any stage he fought at. And Look at the length of Ali’s career, and at the end he was STILL fighting guys like Larry!

I respect Tyson’s skills. Tyson is top 5 HW all time. I love his explosiveness and power. And I love him as a finisher. If he hurts you, he finishes you.

But Prime Ali, he’s too fast and he’s too smart. He wouldn’t get caught. Watch his jab, watch his feet. He would not fall into traps. He was tough, he would not be intimidated, he would play mind games, etc. Ali has proven he can got 15 brutal rounds, can Mike? Ali has never been knocked out. Mike?

Remember, this is a boxing match. NOT A STREET FIGHT.

The jab would control the fight and break/disrupt Mike’s ryhtem on the way in. He would be blinded, pushed, and controlled with the reach.

I mean, look at the resumes. Mike has LOST to some Great guys (Lewis, Holyfield x2), a good one (Douglas) and others (Williams, McBride).
Ali’s is a whos-who of boxing Heavyweights of that era. [/quote]

I used holmes as an example of the logic at play here.

When you’re talking about a fantasy matchup of both fighters in their primes, its not fair to then use examples of them at their poorest to factor in your judgement, you follow? I wouldn’t use Ali/Holmes as an example of ali being only a punching bag, because clearly thats entirely untrue - that was ali at his worst and far past his prime.

Now as to ali being too smart and too fast.

Joe Frazier gave Ali trouble in all of their matches, to say otherwise is ludicrous. And how does Joe fight? He comes in bobbing and weaving and throwing bombs.

But here’s the difference. Tyson was faster than Joe, more accurate, bigger and is superior technically. His defense is far better and his ability to cut off the ring and move to dominant angles is much better.

I don’t see it being anywhere near as easy for Ali as some people are making out. I certainly don’t think he dominates the fight the way he did to Patterson. I don’t rule out the possibility of a UD victory to Ali, but at the very least he comes away battered and bloodied.

71

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]Charged wrote:
k, just watched that ‘prime’ ali fight, look at how he constantly back peddles himself into the corner and crosses his feet over, against tyson thats goodnight. Stop saying ali was faster, tyson was blatently faster than ali. When I used to box all my coaches who were top guys such as the hitman hatton, all agreed that tyson would destroy ali.

Learn about boxing and understand styles before putting an opinion in, ali would get owned, and it wouldnt even be close. Just for the record Lennox was better than Ali anyway, so stop using that plus he thought an out of shape tyson.[/quote]

Huh, “Top Guys” DOES NOT = “Hitman Hatton”

LOL

I think you lost your credibility, sir.

Backpeddling? Yep. Watch him do it while double and tripling the jab. and when he get close to the closer, pivot and then hard right hand or a check hook. Watch him skip, watch his lateral movement for a man his size.

Tyson would walk into leather all night. Watch the clip FightingIrish posted against Patterson. Imagine the jab splitting the guard and him stepping around to hit him with a right hand on the temple. And every time Mike have to reset and fins Ali because he “backpeddled” 10 feet away.[/quote]

Charged is a troll, seriously, look what he’s writing. I wouldn’t bother to argue. He never boxed under Ricky Hatton… maybe Henry Hatton, who bartends at the Pig and Whistle on Friday night… probably as close to “boxing” as Charger/Drew/Sardines12 ever got.

72

You guys are just too stupid to talk common sense to, i know im right, so i bid you farewell. Btw check out the lennox lewis docu, theres footage of him and mike sparring when they were both in there prime, and tyson owned him. peace.

73

The classic ‘what if’. Different era’s so tough to say. Like most things in the world everything improves over time; advancements are always being made. Athletes today are better than those of yester-year (improved training methods, supplements, equipment, greater knowledge, etc). However regardless of, a champion of years past would be a champion today because of the same make-up…that being their mind, determination and work ethic. An Ali vs. Tyson would not, nor could not, be a one and done. It would be Tyson winning the first fight, Ali winning the second. It’s the third fight that I can’t venture a guess who would win…

74

[quote]nhstatemuscle wrote:
The classic ‘what if’. Different era’s so tough to say. Like most things in the world everything improves over time; advancements are always being made. Athletes today are better than those of yester-year (improved training methods, supplements, equipment, greater knowledge, etc). However regardless of, a champion of years past would be a champion today because of the same make-up…that being their mind, determination and work ethic. An Ali vs. Tyson would not, nor could not, be a one and done. It would be Tyson winning the first fight, Ali winning the second. It’s the third fight that I can’t venture a guess who would win… [/quote]

Keep in mind that as far as boxing goes, training regimes haven’t really changed… hell, they have barely changed at all haha.

It ain’t like the NFL…

75

I think you can argue Tyson 's ability could have developed even further, D’Amato died when he was 19, just imagine what Tyson could have been had he lived another 5 years.

For me its Tyson as he just seemed mentally bullet proof under D’amato( and Rooney). Here he seems fearless almost to the point of recklessness. -Barely takes a step back apart from to unleash the mother of all bodyshots…

76

I agree the training has not changed much. There is gteater knowledge with reagrds to nutrition and supplementation allowing for better recovery, more endurance etc to provide a greater training session, thus a more productive workout.

77

[quote]nhstatemuscle wrote:
I agree the training has not changed much. There is gteater knowledge with reagrds to nutrition and supplementation allowing for better recovery, more endurance etc to provide a greater training session, thus a more productive workout. [/quote]

Yea but a lot of boxers don’t even bother with that.

Unless it’s steroids, then they’re pretty good…

78

Ali was great but it’s starting to look like the Bruce Lee invincibility talking about him. He had great footwork, but Tyson’ in his prime was quicker than anybody he faced. That’s what made him most dangerous yeah he was explosive , but he was far more aggressive with technical speed than any other boxer.

He had no problem getting inside on Holmes, Holmes didn’t jab he back peddled, stuck out his left arm basically just fending him off until Tyson got close enough to hold. There were boxers that could get inside in Ali, Tyson is better than all of them. If it wasn’t for Ali’s intelligence I would give it to Tyson all the way.

79

[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
I think you can argue Tyson 's ability could have developed even further, D’Amato died when he was 19, just imagine what Tyson could have been had he lived another 5 years.

For me its Tyson as he just seemed mentally bullet proof under D’amato( and Rooney). Here he seems fearless almost to the point of recklessness. -Barely takes a step back apart from to unleash the mother of all bodyshots…

Tyson was actually just as frail mentally. The whole incident with Teddy Atlas and the gun happened while Cus was still very much alive. The guy was always pretty much a piece of shit… and not stable.

80

For all those acting like Tyson could knock everybody out in his early yaers, he was so fast, etc, why was it so easy for a lot of guys to hang on for dear life and stop Mike from inflicting any damage - such as James ‘BoneCrusher’ Smith? Ali, in my opinion, would hold - and be active while holding, weigh down Mike, and successfully land punches coming out and into a hold.