White Privilege - I'm So Sorry :(

xXSeraphimXx · June 18, 2014, 3:26pm

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

It goes beyond exoticism in that getting things like double eyelid surgery and bleaching hair is popular in places like Japan and Korea.

[/quote]

Maybe they’re transracial or something. You know, “trapped in the wrong body.” It’s scientific fact. Some people are “assigned” the wrong race. Assigned by whom I’m not sure but it’s fact nonetheless. What I find interesting is, if all these people were “assigned” the wrong bodies then what happened to the bodies they were supposed to get?[/quote]

Your “point” aside; don’t take his quote too seriously.

He doesn’t know nearly as much about Japan as he thinks he does.

<here we go, I’m sure>[/quote]

Yep, sure as hell here we go. So you would assume to know how much I know about places like Japan and Korea? How do you know what I know? Seems rather pompous to say one doesn’t know much without providing any evidence. I lived in Okinawa for several years and toured all over the Pacific. If not only for living there and having first hand experience, I also took courses in college about various east Asian cultures, specifically anthropological studies of indigeneity, war, and race politics. Did you know that?

[/quote]
I said nothing about Korea, and I know that your knowledge of Japan is limited because of the content of your previous posts.

I’m curious; how many years is “several,” and how fluent is your Japanese?[/quote]

Nonsense. Your initial jab against my knowledge about Japan had nothing to do with the above post, it’s temporally impossible unless you’re psychic. So, is that why you claim know that I know less than I think I do about Japan or Asia, because you’re psychic?

Why be deceptive or play games with my credibility? Lets not play this stupid game.

Why don’t you offer an explanation instead of trying to cut me down? I’ll give you the information you are looking for to cut me down, just to see what you do with it… Besides…

If anyone can explain it better it would probably be you. I’m not claiming to know more as you are immersed in Mainland culture. I lived in Oki for a mere three and a half years and never picked up the language. But, I learned a lot about Mainland Japanese through Okinawan people, and the attitudes towards them by Mainland Japanese first hand. It stuck with me and I ended up studying it here in the states. [/quote]

Please don’t flatter yourself.

I say you don’t know because you don’t.

After 23 years living here, a masters in Japanese studies, fluency that includes having published translations of pre-war texts, and 19 years of marriage to a Japanese woman, I think I’m reasonably qualified to judge.

My original comment on the subject was I only to alert my friend to your mistaken understanding. In not going to debate Japan with someone who lived in Okinawa (not mainland Japan) for a few years and can’t even converse with his bartender. If Varq or Cortez want to dispute me, I’ll take them seriously. You, on the other hand, don’t know what you’re talking about but you’re acting like some sort of expert.[/quote]

Do you live in Japan all year or part?

Severiano · June 18, 2014, 5:21pm

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

It goes beyond exoticism in that getting things like double eyelid surgery and bleaching hair is popular in places like Japan and Korea.

[/quote]

Maybe they’re transracial or something. You know, “trapped in the wrong body.” It’s scientific fact. Some people are “assigned” the wrong race. Assigned by whom I’m not sure but it’s fact nonetheless. What I find interesting is, if all these people were “assigned” the wrong bodies then what happened to the bodies they were supposed to get?[/quote]

Your “point” aside; don’t take his quote too seriously.

He doesn’t know nearly as much about Japan as he thinks he does.

<here we go, I’m sure>[/quote]

Yep, sure as hell here we go. So you would assume to know how much I know about places like Japan and Korea? How do you know what I know? Seems rather pompous to say one doesn’t know much without providing any evidence. I lived in Okinawa for several years and toured all over the Pacific. If not only for living there and having first hand experience, I also took courses in college about various east Asian cultures, specifically anthropological studies of indigeneity, war, and race politics. Did you know that?

[/quote]
I said nothing about Korea, and I know that your knowledge of Japan is limited because of the content of your previous posts.

I’m curious; how many years is “several,” and how fluent is your Japanese?[/quote]

Nonsense. Your initial jab against my knowledge about Japan had nothing to do with the above post, it’s temporally impossible unless you’re psychic. So, is that why you claim know that I know less than I think I do about Japan or Asia, because you’re psychic?

Why be deceptive or play games with my credibility? Lets not play this stupid game.

Why don’t you offer an explanation instead of trying to cut me down? I’ll give you the information you are looking for to cut me down, just to see what you do with it… Besides…

If anyone can explain it better it would probably be you. I’m not claiming to know more as you are immersed in Mainland culture. I lived in Oki for a mere three and a half years and never picked up the language. But, I learned a lot about Mainland Japanese through Okinawan people, and the attitudes towards them by Mainland Japanese first hand. It stuck with me and I ended up studying it here in the states. [/quote]

Please don’t flatter yourself.

I say you don’t know because you don’t.

After 23 years living here, a masters in Japanese studies, fluency that includes having published translations of pre-war texts, and 19 years of marriage to a Japanese woman, I think I’m reasonably qualified to judge.

My original comment on the subject was I only to alert my friend to your mistaken understanding. In not going to debate Japan with someone who lived in Okinawa (not mainland Japan) for a few years and can’t even converse with his bartender. If Varq or Cortez want to dispute me, I’ll take them seriously. You, on the other hand, don’t know what you’re talking about but you’re acting like some sort of expert.[/quote]

I figured, that’s just the type of dude you are, just wanted to instigate. Why say anything in the first place? You don’t intend to contribute you just want to talk some shit. Well, cant hate you for being you, I come to expect it.

From what I’ve seen in Japan blacks aren’t very well represented in the media. Whites are idealized in the media as well as happa, but they are always shown as half whites on T.V.

The little blacks are portrayed on T.V. it’s usually pop star, or athlete. What I saw, and the disturbing thing that a lot of people recognize is the way Bob Sapp was portrayed in his hayday. I asked you about him before and you acted like you never heard of him. I find it odd and evasive you would say such a thing being he was portrayed a lot like a monkey by the Japanese media and made to look like some sort of beastly Sambo at other times.

But whatever, I don’t know shit. I’m done. Not mine but it’s interesting. If anyone bothers to read it, I think it better points out to what I’ve been trying to point out. That amongst halfers in Japan, blacks are the least accepted. There’s a type of racism in Japan that equates blacks with being primal, and good athletes but less clever and sophisticated as Japanese. Check out page 14 of the dissertation.

Varqanir · June 19, 2014, 1:34am

[quote]Severiano wrote:

That amongst halfers in Japan, blacks are the least accepted. There’s a type of racism in Japan that equates blacks with being primal, and good athletes but less clever and sophisticated as Japanese.
[/quote]

Hate to say it, but no matter which country you go to, in Asia or otherwise, you could make that same statement and it would be true to some extent. Japanese can be racist bastards, but so can Chinese, Indonesians, Thais, Arabs, French, Russians, Germans and Americans, where the colour of a person’s skin is involved.

I think Okinawa is a special case which can’t really be extrapolated to the rest of the country, though. You must realise that there is a much (MUCH) higher concentration of American blacks on Okinawa than anywhere else in Japan, and that the bulk of them are servicemen, and that historically Okinawa has been a place where American servicemen have, shall we say, misbehaved. So attitudes toward blacks (and toward the children of black men and Japanese women) is probably more severe than it might be on the mainland, and certainly more so than in a cosmopolitan city like Tokyo or Osaka.

Years ago there was a show with Japanese celebrity Beat Takeshi called Koko ga Hen Dayo Nihonjin (Yo, Japanese People: This is Weird!), in which a panel of a hundred gaijin got to tell the Japanese on national TV what the fucked-up parts of their society were. Invariably, the most popular foreigners on the show were the Africans, from Kenya, Nigeria, Ghana and thereabouts. One of them was so fluent in Japanese and so articulate in his anger that he actually became a very well-known celebrity himself. He made so much money in Japan that when he returned to his country in Africa, he was able to open four schools.

Varqanir · June 19, 2014, 2:10am

And as a follow-up, Asian chicks bleaching their hair and surgically reducing their epicanthic folds has about as much with them wanting to be white as Italian chicks getting a fake tan and a perm has to do with them wanting to be black.

Severiano · June 19, 2014, 7:32am

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

That amongst halfers in Japan, blacks are the least accepted. There’s a type of racism in Japan that equates blacks with being primal, and good athletes but less clever and sophisticated as Japanese.
[/quote]

Hate to say it, but no matter which country you go to, in Asia or otherwise, you could make that same statement and it would be true to some extent. Japanese can be racist bastards, but so can Chinese, Indonesians, Thais, Arabs, French, Russians, Germans and Americans, where the colour of a person’s skin is involved.

I think Okinawa is a special case which can’t really be extrapolated to the rest of the country, though. You must realise that there is a much (MUCH) higher concentration of American blacks on Okinawa than anywhere else in Japan, and that the bulk of them are servicemen, and that historically Okinawa has been a place where American servicemen have, shall we say, misbehaved. So attitudes toward blacks (and toward the children of black men and Japanese women) is probably more severe than it might be on the mainland, and certainly more so than in a cosmopolitan city like Tokyo or Osaka.

Years ago there was a show with Japanese celebrity Beat Takeshi called Koko ga Hen Dayo Nihonjin (Yo, Japanese People: This is Weird!), in which a panel of a hundred gaijin got to tell the Japanese on national TV what the fucked-up parts of their society were. Invariably, the most popular foreigners on the show were the Africans, from Kenya, Nigeria, Ghana and thereabouts. One of them was so fluent in Japanese and so articulate in his anger that he actually became a very well-known celebrity himself. He made so much money in Japan that when he returned to his country in Africa, he was able to open four schools.[/quote]

Sees we agree on quite a bit. I think that your example of the way Africans were treated is a great example of what I’m talking about. It’s that they were always represented on TV a certain way, like beasts… So when the Japanese media portrayed blacks a different way the people were taken back. If blacks were always represented as capable, and intelligent folks then such a thing wouldn’t have been treated in such a special way… You know what they say about the exception of things and it not being the norm. You see it as evidence of the people being open minded, I see it as evidence that the media very rarely if ever showed blacks as intelligent people, which is why it was so wildly popular. It was a novel thing for blacks to be portrayed as anything other than a Bob Sapp, or back in the day Rampage Jackson was portrayed as a homeless guy who ate from trash cans. I wish I were kidding, I was in Japan when this was happening, and I was very much a fan of Pride and K1 back in the day. Quinton 'Rampage' Jackson discusses aspects of Pride, UFC - YouTube

Remember I’m trying to tie this all into white privilege. I’ve only really talked about how it works with whites and blacks and have only touched on people that are half some other Asian.

I’m saying that half white half Japanese would also have it easier than half Chinese or half Korean, half Filipino as well which is really the highlight of white privilege in most of Asia.

Japan is the most curious one because Japan has historically been at war and at various times in it’s history have attempted to treat other Asian nations like colonies, similar but obviously different than the U.K. With it came an idea of Asian superiority.

I think it explains why in Japan, there is a trend of people disliking other Asians much more than western whites. You have to remember there is still that remnant idea of homogeneity and superiority. It’s one thing to have a western white, who is a type of superior other/ superior westerner, and another thing for another inferior Asian. Japan has been to war with the West, Nimitz and Truman were the faces of defeat in WW2. They have also been to war with Korea and China. Yet half Chinese and half Koreans have it worse than half whites in Japan. I believe it’s because a lot of Japanese still feel themselves as superior Asians. It’s less bad to be mixed with a superior westerner than it is anything else.

This is why I say there is white Privilege in most of Asia.

It’s the same with China. It’s a lot better to be half white than half Japanese. And again in the media there isn’t a lot of exposure on blacks…

Thailand seems to treat light skinned beauties as more an ideal, but damn I couldn’t get enough of their darker skinned women. I think they are some of the most beautiful women on the planet. Maybe it’s because they remind me of super laid back latinas.

SexMachine · June 19, 2014, 7:24am

Black lady threatens to shoot and stab white people on train; no one raises an eyebrow.

White lady mourns the Balkanisation of her country and calls for repatriation; goes to prison and driven to attempt suicide.

Severiano · June 19, 2014, 7:47am

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And as a follow-up, Asian chicks bleaching their hair and surgically reducing their epicanthic folds has about as much with them wanting to be white as Italian chicks getting a fake tan and a perm has to do with them wanting to be black. [/quote]

Really?

So, you are saying the concept of round eyes and blonde hair isn’t about looking more western? Specifically white western?

That implies that western media has no impact on Korean or Japanese media.

You are implying they would be bleaching hair and doing round eye operations even if everyone on the planet had black hair and epicanthic eye folds.

I disagree, I think it’s influenced by how beauty is strongly defined by western media. From here other media’s copy, and it explains why so many Asians in Asian media have round eye surgeries, and in turn why the public copies that media…

If Asians copy the style of Asian media, and Asian media copies Western media, who is copying and idealizing who?

SexMachine · June 19, 2014, 8:06am

Beauty is “defined by the media?” WTF? Physical attraction is entirely biological and can’t be influenced by “the media.” I’m a white guy with blue eyes but I’m mostly attracted to the Southern European type: dark hair, brown eyes, tanned skin. It’s not from watching too many Italian films. It’s my biological preference.

Severiano · June 19, 2014, 8:20am

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Black lady threatens to shoot and stab white people on train; no one raises an eyebrow.

White lady mourns the Balkanisation of her country and calls for repatriation; goes to prison and driven to attempt suicide.

[/quote]

Fat, black, country senile elderly lady with three teeth threatens to pepper spray and kill whitey in the U.S.

Vs.

Brit lady on public tram talking shit about people not belonging, telling black people to go back home to Nigra or wherever they are from… In Britain.

Here’s something for you… None of them went to prison, they are in the U.S.

SexMachine · June 19, 2014, 8:50am

Yes, she was talking shit. She was blaming individuals who may very well have been loyal British subjects. But here’s the thing: I don’t blame her. She’s utterly unequipped to deal with what politicians have done to her country. She’s experiencing what I’ve experienced and completely relate to: the realisation that you’re becoming a minority in your own fucking country. I’ve lived and worked in the UK and I know intellectually what she only knows instinctively: that in a single generation, a culture thousands of years in the making is disappearing. And it’s not to do with race. It’s to do with language and culture. You notice she mentions Poles who are of course white.

I don’t think you could ever comprehend what people like me are going through: the profound sense of loss and alienation as we watch our nation slip away.

Severiano · June 19, 2014, 9:03am

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Beauty is “defined by the media?” WTF? Physical attraction is entirely biological and can’t be influenced by “the media.” I’m a white guy with blue eyes but I’m mostly attracted to the Southern European type: dark hair, brown eyes, tanned skin. It’s not from watching too many Italian films. It’s my biological preference.[/quote]

It’s not entirely defined by the media but it is strongly influenced by what is popular and trendy. What is popular and trendy is for the most part defined by the media, promoters/promotions. Now and then stars are built on their own talent, but often without promoters and backers they don’t get exposure and fizzle away. So even who becomes a star is strongly influenced by the media. Stars, are basically modern day Gods.

You know what you like, but are you sure you know why you like what you like? Are you so certain it’s a matter of pure biology and not more complex?

I think a good example of how things popular and trendy influence beauty would be black teeth. Considered quite popular and attractive in Japan during the Meiji era and all over S.E. Asia. Attraction isn’t just about biology but also about how we associate things socially and anthropologically. Ohaguro - Wikipedia

Alternatively we can look at the various evolutions of depictions of Aphrodite. She’s the epitome of sexiness, why should she have gone from a heavier curvy lady to one with implants and duck lips today?

Severiano · June 19, 2014, 9:15am

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Yes, she was talking shit. She was blaming individuals who may very well have been loyal British subjects. But here’s the thing: I don’t blame her. She’s utterly unequipped to deal with what politicians have done to her country. She’s experiencing what I’ve experienced and completely relate to: the realisation that you’re becoming a minority in your own fucking country. I’ve lived and worked in the UK and I know intellectually what she only knows instinctively: that in a single generation, a culture thousands of years in the making is disappearing. And it’s not to do with race. It’s to do with language and culture. You notice she mentions Poles who are of course white.

I don’t think you could ever comprehend what people like me are going through: the profound sense of loss and alienation as we watch our nation slip away.[/quote]

But what of the converse side? What about the people who may have been born to a half Brit, half Pakistani and hears her tell them to go back to Pakistan, or half Nigerian and told to go back to Africa? Do they not belong in Britain just as much as she does?

It’s also weird for me being mixed race in the states with strong roots in Mexico. I don’t want the U.S. to become Mexico at all, but as I’ve gotten older and more educated I’ve realized that Mexico is the way it is because the United States has formed it that way. Most times the people have stood up to rebel the U.S. has been there to give the Mexican government money and arms. I don’t blame the U.S. entirely, but I know they have a strong hand in Mexico’s situation historically which to me is a sad irony.

SexMachine · June 19, 2014, 9:15am

Not for me. It’s entirely biological. No matter how trendy fair skinned, blue eyed girls were - in fact they are - my preference will always be for the Mediterranean type.

Yes I’m very sure.

SexMachine · June 19, 2014, 9:23am

That’s the point I made. She’s blaming individuals who may very well be loyal British subjects. The real blame lies with mostly white politicians who opened the floodgates.

Well I disagree with that but it’s a political issue that doesn’t have anything to do with race or culture.

Severiano · June 19, 2014, 9:59am

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

That’s the point I made. She’s blaming individuals who may very well be loyal British subjects. The real blame lies with mostly white politicians who opened the floodgates.

Well I disagree with that but it’s a political issue that doesn’t have anything to do with race or culture.
[/quote]

Well it all depends on how you view the world I guess. Your ideal is for things to stay the same.

Mine is for things to change. I think if we don’t kill one another first, the whole world will resemble something like Brazil, where everyone is kinda brown, but you see all the different influences of Asian, African, European and Latin as part of a big whole, where literally nearly everyone is beautiful. Hopefully we don’t pick Portuguese as a language though lol.

dt79 · June 19, 2014, 11:47am

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And as a follow-up, Asian chicks bleaching their hair and surgically reducing their epicanthic folds has about as much with them wanting to be white as Italian chicks getting a fake tan and a perm has to do with them wanting to be black. [/quote]

Really?

So, you are saying the concept of round eyes and blonde hair isn’t about looking more western? Specifically white western?

That implies that western media has no impact on Korean or Japanese media.

You are implying they would be bleaching hair and doing round eye operations even if everyone on the planet had black hair and epicanthic eye folds.

I disagree, I think it’s influenced by how beauty is strongly defined by western media. From here other media’s copy, and it explains why so many Asians in Asian media have round eye surgeries, and in turn why the public copies that media…

If Asians copy the style of Asian media, and Asian media copies Western media, who is copying and idealizing who? [/quote]

You are assuming that there aren’t Asian women naturally born with big eyes and that sets the standard for beauty because big eyes are generally considered more expressive and therefore more attractive?

Severiano · June 19, 2014, 5:51pm

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And as a follow-up, Asian chicks bleaching their hair and surgically reducing their epicanthic folds has about as much with them wanting to be white as Italian chicks getting a fake tan and a perm has to do with them wanting to be black. [/quote]

Really?

So, you are saying the concept of round eyes and blonde hair isn’t about looking more western? Specifically white western?

That implies that western media has no impact on Korean or Japanese media.

You are implying they would be bleaching hair and doing round eye operations even if everyone on the planet had black hair and epicanthic eye folds.

I disagree, I think it’s influenced by how beauty is strongly defined by western media. From here other media’s copy, and it explains why so many Asians in Asian media have round eye surgeries, and in turn why the public copies that media…

If Asians copy the style of Asian media, and Asian media copies Western media, who is copying and idealizing who? [/quote]

You are assuming that there aren’t Asian women naturally born with big eyes and that sets the standard for beauty because big eyes are generally considered more expressive and therefore more attractive?[/quote]

Good point. Idealizations of beauty whether it be individual or ideal are usually represented in artwork and literature. The Japanese have a prolific history with defining beauty and have amazing aesthetic taste. I’m no art expert but from what I’ve seen most of the eyes represented in Japanese art seem to be accentuated angle and very small, smaller than normal in Japan… Vs. today the ideal seems to be big and round. Not that naturally round eyed Japanese women don’t exist, or aren’t beautiful in their own right… I’m no expert but it doesn’t seem like the round eyed Japanese woman is a traditional beauty. But, you could always google, “Old Meiji art.” I didn’t find any round eyed beauties depicted.

But, there are also things that are researchable for more current comparisons like Miss Universe Japan competitions, or probably better representing trends would be ads from Magazines from the last 50 years or so to see how styles and beauty trends have changed. I don’t have a shit ton of womens magazines around here, let alone old Japanese ones… But that might be a pretty good way to get another idea. Again, I’m no expert… But to me it seems pretty clear it changed with the wests influence.

Same goes for Korea, except there are paintings, detailed paintings of ideal beauties that are not round eyed. Actually they have sorta round but small plump faces. It didn’t seem to be a thing of beauty in Korea but I could be wrong, when I googled this a lot of stuff for college courses came up and they seem to argue my points btw…

Varqanir · June 19, 2014, 7:14pm

Severiano, have you considered that the ideal you’re describing is not an attempt to emulate Western faces, but rather child faces? I had this discussion with Professor X years ago.

Think of the stereotypical Japanese manga character:

Large eyes (1/5 size of face)
Small nose
Flat face
Body 5.7 heads tall
Thin limbs
Large head (bobbleheadlike)
Colourful hair
Neotenised face
Anime antenna hair (ahoge)

This, with the exception perhaps of colorful hair, is basically describing a baby or young child. The girls getting the epicanthic fold operations are not trying to emulate white girls, they are trying to look more like anime characters. And anime characters are not trying for a “Western” look, they are trying for a childlike look.

The ideal of beauty, especially feminine beauty, not only in Japan but throughout Asia, is pedomorphy.

And not just in Asia. Compare Sarah Jessica Parker’s face to Jessica Alba’s. Which woman is more attractive? Why?

“A potential correlate of beauty is pedomorphy, which is the retention in adults of child-like traits. For instance, women have facial features that are closer to those of children than men, and more feminine women have facial features that are even closer to those of children. Thus, it may be proposed that pedomorphy is a correlate of beauty.”

http://www.femininebeauty.info/ethnic-comparisons/beauty-elements

That’s why.

EDIT: Admittedly, the article goes on to talk about neotenising plastic surgery in the context of Beyonce Knowles, Tyra Banks and Halle Barry, all of whom have lightened their hair and skin, and altered the shape and size of their noses. Whether they consciously set out to look “more white”, “less black” or simply “younger and prettier” is an open question.

dt79 · June 19, 2014, 7:31pm