When Does the Mass Come?

Training
21

[quote]Sutebun wrote:

[quote]ronki23 wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:
then you need to eat more. And again: get stronger.

You are seriously overthinking these things. You seem worried about how big you are. You can’t get big without being at least mildly strong. You just can’t. Ronnie Coleman squatted and deadlifted 800lbs. Arnold was a junior powerlifting champion before he became a bodybuilder. Reg Park and Steve Reeves were both crazy strong. Get strong first. [/quote]

I am aiming for strength.
Looking to bench / overhead press bodyweight and do dips/chins.
I can also squat and deadlift more than my bodyweight.
Strength is my primary focus, only when I get strong enough e.g. 1.5x on both upper and lower, will I consider cutting. Or just cut the junk[/quote]

These are pathetic goals – at least for your expectations.

If you expect to look strong, then you will have to be strong.

And by the way, it’s probably fifty times easier to bench body weight for reps than it is to even get one strict press at bodyweight.

Stop focusing on your expectations and enjoy the process more.[/quote]

Goal 1- Lift bodyweight for upper body
Goal 2- Lift 1.5x bodyweight for lower body
Goal 3- Try not to get too fat when trying to achieve 1 and 2 e.g. try not to add to bodyfat % and cut junk if I do so
Goal 4- Lift 1.5x bodyweight for upper body / win local judo or no gi comps
Goal 5- Lift 2x bodyweight for legs/ win national judo or no gi comps / cut bodyfat %

22

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]ronki23 wrote:
Chin ups use the biceps to bend the arm and handstands involve the triceps to keep them locked out[/quote]

And their involvement is rather quite minimal…

If you fail to do a chin-up, it is because your back is weak. Not your arms.

[quote]ronki23 wrote:
and with the last point, I assume that those peoples’ legs got much bigger. Did the majority of those gains come before or after the squatted bodyweight?[/quote]

When they lifted heavier weight than they did a month ago.

Dude, stop overthinking things. Just get stronger.[/quote]

I only said arms because my handstand is non existant too. Assume it’s middle and rear deltoids that are also weak. Basically my upper body (except my chest) is weak. But I didn’t say back because my barbell and T bar rows are 100lbs or 45 per arm.

And i’m following this program:

A

3x5 Back Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
2x 4-8 Dips (will not use as much weight and make it 6-8)
2x Abs

B

3x5 Back Squat
3x5 Overhead Standing Press
5x3 Power Clean or 3x5 Barbell Row or 3x5 T-Bar Row (this one I tend not to do often, normally focus on cleans)
2x 4-8 Assisted chins (again, will not use as much weight and make it 6-8)
2x Abs

added to last workout of week

2x Bicep Curls of 6-10
2x Tricep Extensions of 6-10

Make up session (if I miss one of the 3 sessions).I try not to do these

5x5 Clean and Press with Squat
5x5 Bench Press
5x5 T-Bar or Barbell Row

or

5x5 Clean and Press with Squat
3x5 Deadlift

As i’ve stated, the only reason i’m not as strong as I wanted to be are because over the past 3 years I did this only for 3 months during summer break. Yes it was linear progression.

During term it was either kickboxing (2010-2011), judo (2011-2012) or wrestling (2012-2013).

But now i’ve finished studies i’ve been going 3 months so far and intend to keep going/am not competing in any fighting competitions until I lift 1.5x on lower body or lift bodyweight.

23

I’m not so sure why your concerned with what your bw to lift ratio is. Sure a great ratio is a good feat to reach and shows significant levels of strength but what your after is muscle mass and size. If you are 6 ft 130lbs, a 300lb squat would be a strong squat in terms of bodyweight ratio but at that height and weight your still not going to look big.

What is your height and weight now? Aim for 225lb overhead press, 315lb bench, 405lb squat, 500lb deadlift. Try not to get super fat in the process but make sure your eating more calories than you are expending and given the more extreme demands to get those weights you should easily put on some mass. Once you hit those numbers you should have a solid foundation. Your not going to look like a serious monster but you’ll be ahead of the curve and probably be what most beginners would define as big.

Time and effort is the most important thing. It takes a long time to develop muscle and strength, don’t just pursue it because you want to get jacked for the ladies or some certain point in a few months, it won’t happen and you’ll end up quitting. Learn to enjoy the grind, the confidence it builds, the life lessons and the comraderie between you and some of your lifting partners. Great things take time, you won’t get big until you’ve paid your dues. There is no easy way out, this can’t be stressed enough.

24

My arms got bigger when I started doing palms facing me pullups, dips are also awesome for this. The guys have mentioned some articles on how to learn them. IMO, doing only the negative part of the exercise for a while should help you. Example, get yourself to the top of the chinup bar using a box or something and slowly lower yourself, then try to pull yourself up.

Do this several time each workout until you can do a few,it will take several workouts, then just do them once a week or so, try to do one more each time. Regardless of the comments on pull ups, palms facing with agout 8"-12" hand spacing will grow your biceps and your back. Especially for a lifter at your level of strength

25

At this point I’m calling troll.

26

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]ronki23 wrote:
Chin ups use the biceps to bend the arm and handstands involve the triceps to keep them locked out[/quote]

And their involvement is rather quite minimal…

If you fail to do a chin-up, it is because your back is weak. Not your arms.
[/quote]

Yes and no. Keep in mind that this guy is obviously not terribly experienced. It took me quite some time to sufficiently develop the mind-muscle connection with my lats to do chins in a way that was effective at training them. I understand that this is a relatively common problem with many beginners.

28

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
Yes and no. Keep in mind that this guy is obviously not terribly experienced. It took me quite some time to sufficiently develop the mind-muscle connection with my lats to do chins in a way that was effective at training them. I understand that this is a relatively common problem with many beginners.[/quote]

Fair enough.

29

[quote]nkklllll wrote:
At this point I’m calling troll.
[/quote]

How? All of those goals are achievable. I’m not expecting to be lifting >500lbs on the powerlifts without juicing. I’ve already stated I aim to hit the 300s for bench and the 400s for lower body in the long term e.g. lifetime. I’m setting progressive goals

30

[quote]ronki23 wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:
At this point I’m calling troll.
[/quote]

How? All of those goals are achievable. I’m not expecting to be lifting >500lbs on the powerlifts without juicing. I’ve already stated I aim to hit the 300s for bench and the 400s for lower body in the long term e.g. lifetime. I’m setting progressive goals

[/quote]
Because people are telling you the same thing over and over again: there is no magical point at which size gains start to happen. However, you ARE weak. There’s no way to get big without lifting bigger weights. And everyone here is telling you that. Stop worrying about how big you’re not and worry about getting stronger and eating more.

And because you keep wanting a different answer than you’re, while everyone is giving you basically the same, generally accepted answer, it feels like you’re trolling.

31

[quote]nkklllll wrote:

[quote]ronki23 wrote:

[quote]nkklllll wrote:
At this point I’m calling troll.
[/quote]

How? All of those goals are achievable. I’m not expecting to be lifting >500lbs on the powerlifts without juicing. I’ve already stated I aim to hit the 300s for bench and the 400s for lower body in the long term e.g. lifetime. I’m setting progressive goals

[/quote]
Because people are telling you the same thing over and over again: there is no magical point at which size gains start to happen. However, you ARE weak. There’s no way to get big without lifting bigger weights. And everyone here is telling you that. Stop worrying about how big you’re not and worry about getting stronger and eating more.

And because you keep wanting a different answer than you’re, while everyone is giving you basically the same, generally accepted answer, it feels like you’re trolling.
[/quote]

Where/when did I ever say I worried about my size? I merely stated (which most people agree) that if I can’t lift my own bodyweight for upper body, it’s unlikely i’ll be able to succeed in sport or get big muscles. Note how I said big instead of bigger as the whole point of this thread was me asking if gains slow down/ accelerate once you lift bodyweight

32

Yes. And you’ve received an answer to that. Seriously, there is no point in even worrying about size or strength gains in the long run if you can’t even do pull ups and dips - and achieving these is a matter of training consistency, not of getting ‘bigger’. There are some people that would tell you to do nothing else for your upper body than working on these to things - getting to 10 pull ups and 20 bar dips. If you focus on getting there, your torso will get more muscular in the process.

33

You have too many competing priorities. The best things you can do with your time outside the weight room is eat and sleep. That is, if you’re actually serious about seeing strength and size gains.

Eat more carbs periworkout. Eat plenty of protein throughout the day, and train hard. Focus on getting stronger. SS, 5x5, 5/3/1, etc. There are plenty of great programs out there.

Unless you are overweight there is no reason you shouldn’t be capable of at least one dip or pullup. But if you truly can’t do a single dip or pullup then start with slow negatives. Jump to the top of the movement, then very slowly lower yourself down. Do several reps of these 2-3 days a week.

34

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Yes. And you’ve received an answer to that. Seriously, there is no point in even worrying about size or strength gains in the long run if you can’t even do pull ups and dips - and achieving these is a matter of training consistency, not of getting ‘bigger’. There are some people that would tell you to do nothing else for your upper body than working on these to things - getting to 10 pull ups and 20 bar dips. If you focus on getting there, your torso will get more muscular in the process.[/quote]

Seriously. I don’t know how you ever survived grappling and wrestling without even having this most basic amount of upper body strength required to do a single dip and a single pullup. I’m only half kidding when I say you may want to go see a doctor about this because it sounds like you have a neurological disorder or some muscle-wasting disease or you’re very overweight.

35

I’m 6’3", 181 this morning, have pulled 350, squatted 285, and benched 235 and I’m still nowhere close to “big” by 90% of the population’s standards, much less my own. I still have a TON of work to do and a TON left to learn.

It takes time.

Learn what you can from the experienced guys here (there are a ton) and anywhere you go. Eat big, train hard and in time you’ll get what you work for

36

[quote]Juggs wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Yes. And you’ve received an answer to that. Seriously, there is no point in even worrying about size or strength gains in the long run if you can’t even do pull ups and dips - and achieving these is a matter of training consistency, not of getting ‘bigger’. There are some people that would tell you to do nothing else for your upper body than working on these to things - getting to 10 pull ups and 20 bar dips. If you focus on getting there, your torso will get more muscular in the process.[/quote]

Seriously. I don’t know how you ever survived grappling and wrestling without even having this most basic amount of upper body strength required to do a single dip and a single pullup. I’m only half kidding when I say you may want to go see a doctor about this because it sounds like you have a neurological disorder or some muscle-wasting disease or you’re very overweight. [/quote]

How is what you’re saying here related to my post? I’m confused.

37

[quote]Andrewdwatters1 wrote:
I’m 6’3", 181 this morning, have pulled 350, squatted 285, and benched 235 and I’m still nowhere close to “big” by 90% of the population’s standards, much less my own. I still have a TON of work to do and a TON left to learn.

It takes time.

Learn what you can from the experienced guys here (there are a ton) and anywhere you go. Eat big, train hard and in time you’ll get what you work for[/quote]

Assume you have seen differences in your physique?

A previous post by another said that someone over 6 foot and squatting over 300lbs won’t be ‘big’. Assume this is again due to height.

I am 5’9" and when I started out lifting I could only do 45lbs squats, bench press 45lbs and deadlift 70lbs. Though that was when I was 17 years old.

I’m 23 now and the only reason i’ve had such problems with progress is because I only lifted weights in the ‘offseason’ from competitions e.g. 3 months every summer since 2010.

My max stats in August 2012:

Squat/Deadlift: 190lbs 5RM /220lbs 1RM
Bench: 30 push ups/20 fist push ups or 5RM of 120lbs
Overhead Press: 100lbs
Row: 100lbs

Have restarted training since October

at the moment my Squat/Deadlift is 190lbs but the 1RM is still lagging
Bench is 110lbs and only 20 push ups (not looked at fist push ups)
Overhead Press is only 80lbs. Row is 85lbs

38

[quote]Juggs wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Yes. And you’ve received an answer to that. Seriously, there is no point in even worrying about size or strength gains in the long run if you can’t even do pull ups and dips - and achieving these is a matter of training consistency, not of getting ‘bigger’. There are some people that would tell you to do nothing else for your upper body than working on these to things - getting to 10 pull ups and 20 bar dips. If you focus on getting there, your torso will get more muscular in the process.[/quote]

Seriously. I don’t know how you ever survived grappling and wrestling without even having this most basic amount of upper body strength required to do a single dip and a single pullup. I’m only half kidding when I say you may want to go see a doctor about this because it sounds like you have a neurological disorder or some muscle-wasting disease or you’re very overweight. [/quote]

To put it bluntly, I didn’t survive in those. I was destroyed in the competitions. I can only do the throws/takedowns in the drills but I have tapped out people before in rolling

And when I started at 15 my weight was ~190lbs and bodyfat was over 25%. When I trimmed weight down to 145ish after 6 months diet/training my bodyfat was still around 23% so I wouldn’t be surprised if it was as high as 33% before I started dieting. I managed to get bodyfat percentage down to ~17% but today/whenever I did 3x5 I was in the low 20s again (better at 23 years old than at 15).

I only started sets of 5 in 2010 offseason. Again, it was only after this summer that I transferred to wrestling and grappling from light contact kickboxing. I could finally deadlift and squat 150lbs and overhead press 70lbs. Bench was only 100lbs/ 2x 60lbs as gym had barbells in barbell rack (not above the bench.

Shame I didn’t start this rep scheme sooner. Was doing higher reps, personal trainer programs and self made ones before that and made little progress in that time.

39

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Juggs wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Yes. And you’ve received an answer to that. Seriously, there is no point in even worrying about size or strength gains in the long run if you can’t even do pull ups and dips - and achieving these is a matter of training consistency, not of getting ‘bigger’. There are some people that would tell you to do nothing else for your upper body than working on these to things - getting to 10 pull ups and 20 bar dips. If you focus on getting there, your torso will get more muscular in the process.[/quote]

Seriously. I don’t know how you ever survived grappling and wrestling without even having this most basic amount of upper body strength required to do a single dip and a single pullup. I’m only half kidding when I say you may want to go see a doctor about this because it sounds like you have a neurological disorder or some muscle-wasting disease or you’re very overweight. [/quote]

How is what you’re saying here related to my post? I’m confused.
[/quote]

Not sure. Didn’t mean to quote you on that one.

40

[quote]ronki23 wrote:
To put it bluntly, I didn’t survive in those. I was destroyed in the competitions. I can only do the throws/takedowns in the drills but I have tapped out people before in rolling

And when I started at 15 my weight was ~190lbs and bodyfat was over 25%. When I trimmed weight down to 145ish after 6 months diet/training my bodyfat was still around 23% so I wouldn’t be surprised if it was as high as 33% before I started dieting. I managed to get bodyfat percentage down to ~17% but today/whenever I did 3x5 I was in the low 20s again (better at 23 years old than at 15).

I only started sets of 5 in 2010 offseason. Again, it was only after this summer that I transferred to wrestling and grappling from light contact kickboxing. I could finally deadlift and squat 150lbs and overhead press 70lbs. Bench was only 100lbs/ 2x 60lbs as gym had barbells in barbell rack (not above the bench.

Shame I didn’t start this rep scheme sooner. Was doing higher reps, personal trainer programs and self made ones before that and made little progress in that time.[/quote]

Well it sounds like you just started off from a bit of a disadvantage as far as body comp. Don’t get yourself down about it. You’ve made some improvement, and you still have plenty of room for more. Keep your diet in line and stick to proven programs like the ones you mentioned in your first post that are made up mostly of big, compound movements. Work your dips and pullups with negative and assisted variations until you get better at those.

FYI, I didn’t do so hot in my first few wrestling matches and grappling tournaments either. Comes with the territory. Strength helps though in the absence of technique. Skill levels being equal, the stronger guy will win every time. I read a funny story by Coach Rip about a judo player he knew who didn’t have any technique but dominated everyone he faced because he had a 500lb bench press and everyone he put his hands on had a really bad day, lol.

41

[quote]ronki23 wrote:
Overhead Press: 100lbs

at the moment my Squat/Deadlift is 190lbs
[/quote]
I was deadlifting only 200 lbs a few years ago. Within 6 months it was 300. That was followed by a very long lay off due to an injury, and now it’s closing in on 400.

Also, my ohp was the same as yours: 100 lbs. I was very weak. I don’t ohp anymore but my bench has been well above 300 and I can use 135 lb added weight for dips. I weigh 180; started a few years ago at 140.

It takes time. Fix your programming and eat.