Should be deadlift day tomorrow, should be an interesting update.
[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
In that case, he’s picking one or the other which at least has a point.[/quote]
Ok.
This is subjective.
Or it won’t. You are, again, not taking his age into account. A 38 year old’s body is not the same as an 18 year old’s.
You wrote about trade offs for being strong previously. That I would agree with.
[quote]But eating at a deficit while also putting a recovery strain on your CNS and muscles? Counterproductive.
Sometimes n00bs really need to up the calories simply because they need to put their body into a state of growth.
The only times I think a guy should choose to lose fat BEFORE working on strength is if he’s obese AND he wants to drop some fat because it is impeding his movement. But again, I’d still go for the strength (which is even easier as a fatty since you don’t have to shove food down your gullet) because greater strength can be used to more effectively shed fat.
As for military guys in boot camp; most get weaker DURING their time there. Now many can, and will grow because the military will feed them a lot and these are guys in their prime growth years (18-24) where just about any physical thing they do can get results. Witness college athletics where most trainers are incompetent yet still the genetic freaks that play their sports grow big and strong regardless of their quarter squats and humping DLs.[/quote]
The bootcamp example has to be used in context. It is not even remotely similar to doing stronglifts 5x5 3 times a week, that I can assure you lol.
As for the “genetic freak” athelete doing quarter squats and humping deadlifts getting bigger and stronger, come on…
This is the same dumb rationalisation as every big guy doing quarter squats in the gym is either a mutant or using gear because they grow in spite of what they do. It is nonsense. If they’re getting bigger and stronger, they’re doing something right.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I genuinely disagree with the idea that a caloric surplus is necessary for a beginner to grow stronger. I feel like this is one of those things that the internet has taken and run with, ignoring all the data we have on the contrary to this point.
[/quote]
Another N=1 observation here, I’ve got stronger throughout my training career on calorie deficits. Hell, I’ve even run Smolov Jnr. (unwisely, probably), on a calorie deficit and still seen strength gains. I just don’t think the calories are the root cause of stalling deadlifts at bodyweight, particularly if the other lifts are still progressing.
[quote]dagill2 wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I genuinely disagree with the idea that a caloric surplus is necessary for a beginner to grow stronger. I feel like this is one of those things that the internet has taken and run with, ignoring all the data we have on the contrary to this point.
[/quote]
Another N=1 observation here, I’ve got stronger throughout my training career on calorie deficits. Hell, I’ve even run Smolov Jnr. (unwisely, probably), on a calorie deficit and still seen strength gains. I just don’t think the calories are the root cause of stalling deadlifts at bodyweight, particularly if the other lifts are still progressing.[/quote]
agree. If all you needed to do every time you hit a strength plateau was eat more, there’d be no strength plateaus.
Probably a technique issue
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]dagill2 wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I genuinely disagree with the idea that a caloric surplus is necessary for a beginner to grow stronger. I feel like this is one of those things that the internet has taken and run with, ignoring all the data we have on the contrary to this point.
[/quote]
Another N=1 observation here, I’ve got stronger throughout my training career on calorie deficits. Hell, I’ve even run Smolov Jnr. (unwisely, probably), on a calorie deficit and still seen strength gains. I just don’t think the calories are the root cause of stalling deadlifts at bodyweight, particularly if the other lifts are still progressing.[/quote]
agree. If all you needed to do every time you hit a strength plateau was eat more, there’d be no strength plateaus.
Probably a technique issue[/quote]
x2. Especially because we’re not talking about stalling at 500lbs here, but rather 200lbs. I would guess most lifters on this forum hit 200+ within their first month of serious training before they even knew what the hell nutrition was.
[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
As for military guys in boot camp; most get weaker DURING their time there. Now many can, and will grow because the military will feed them a lot [/quote]
I am curious how much time you got to eat at chow. I genuinely found that to be the limiting factor when it came to getting in calories.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
As for the “genetic freak” athelete doing quarter squats and humping deadlifts getting bigger and stronger, come on…
This is the same dumb rationalisation as every big guy doing quarter squats in the gym is either a mutant or using gear because they grow in spite of what they do. It is nonsense. If they’re getting bigger and stronger, they’re doing something right.
[/quote]
Don’t misunderstand when I say genetic freak to mean mutants or geared.
I’m talking about physically gifted people. Geniuses, much like you see persons endowed with exceptional (much above the norm) intelligence being geniuses.
They wouldn’t be recruited into college athletics if they weren’t physical geniuses essentially. This is why the vertical leap is one of the favorite tests for recruitment. Because it is quite indicative of the person’s physical genetic ability to recruit the most out of his muscular system. There is little you can do to change that no matter how hard you work. So a guy with a high vertical will always have an advantage on a guy with a low vertical. Higher upside if you want to say.
These physically gifted men therefore are going to excel in most anything they do to increase their strength. Even if it’s with semi-bad technique such as the quarter-squat and humping DLs.
I wanted to clarify that. I’m not saying these guys can drink beer and jerk off while growing into beasts. Or treat it as dismissing the hard work in the gym they do.
This will burn fat, and up your fitness while allowing you to hold strength if not get a bit stronger…
[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
As for the “genetic freak” athelete doing quarter squats and humping deadlifts getting bigger and stronger, come on…
This is the same dumb rationalisation as every big guy doing quarter squats in the gym is either a mutant or using gear because they grow in spite of what they do. It is nonsense. If they’re getting bigger and stronger, they’re doing something right.
[/quote]
Don’t misunderstand when I say genetic freak to mean mutants or geared.
I’m talking about physically gifted people. Geniuses, much like you see persons endowed with exceptional (much above the norm) intelligence being geniuses.
They wouldn’t be recruited into college athletics if they weren’t physical geniuses essentially. This is why the vertical leap is one of the favorite tests for recruitment. Because it is quite indicative of the person’s physical genetic ability to recruit the most out of his muscular system. There is little you can do to change that no matter how hard you work. So a guy with a high vertical will always have an advantage on a guy with a low vertical. Higher upside if you want to say.
These physically gifted men therefore are going to excel in most anything they do to increase their strength. Even if it’s with semi-bad technique such as the quarter-squat and humping DLs.
I wanted to clarify that. I’m not saying these guys can drink beer and jerk off while growing into beasts. Or treat it as dismissing the hard work in the gym they do.
[/quote]
You have misunderstood what I meant.
Let’s clarify “quarter squats”. I have never seen a big and strong guy do quarter squats as a main exercise. Most of the time people exaggerate when they see a big guy doing “half squats” and say he’s doing “quarter squats”.
If we’re in agreement with that point, I would like to understand why you think someone genetically gifted will benefit from an a half squat while someone with average or even poor genetics won’t.
If we’re in agreement with that point, I would like to understand why you think someone genetically gifted will benefit from an a half squat while someone with average or even poor genetics won’t
I am pretty sure its the idea that “if he isn’t doing things the way I think he should,then there is something unusual about him and anything he does will make him grow”. this is faulty logic of course. There are articles on this site by experts that show this. Regardless,I am pretty sure that verticle leap and building muscle don’t have as much to do with eachother as is implied here. And to follow the psuedo logic even further,the military.trains men to be weaker,but have never figured this out. Hmmm
hi all thanks again for all the feedback …interesting to say the least 
well on saturday i deadlifted 215lb 5 reps pretty easily. was just messng about in the garage had a run on treadmill and was doing random things (light weights) and looked at the barbell and said id see what was what, i felt good and did a few warmup sets and then loaded my bar and was good lifted it 5 reps no problem so left it at that,
im putting my bad day down to maybe a few factors now, one it was xmas and body clock was out of sync, bad nutrition in leading up to it days, and one other thing… i had posted for checks in previous thread a month ago…
One Armed Row and Bench Critique - Beginners - Forums - T Nation
and T3hPwnisher pointed out that i was pulling from pins, and about not having flex in the bar etc i was still pulling from pins in failed attempt
saturday i pulled from floor, which is a deeper pull/lift as my plates are not standard and centre hole is lower which is why i pulled from pins to make it mid shin height, anyways i 215lb was done, i have now reset my 5x5 app by 5 workouts bringing my deadlift down to 70kg or so and will work my way back up.
thanks again for input
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
As for military guys in boot camp; most get weaker DURING their time there. Now many can, and will grow because the military will feed them a lot [/quote]
I am curious how much time you got to eat at chow. I genuinely found that to be the limiting factor when it came to getting in calories.
[/quote]
At first not very much. Funny story, early on I was made a squad leader, which means me and 4 other guys (4 squad leaders and the guide) were last to sit down to chow. On more than one occasion our DI made us leave as the guide was sitting down. On those occasion I had about 30 seconds to cram as much food in my mouth as I could. We’re talking 3 bites, maybe, of just handfuls of food. We also had to eat with our left hand so the majority of us were eating slower until we adapted.
Towards the end of training you get more time. Probably 5-10 minutes once the guide sits down. It seemed like an eternity.
Edit:
Also I agree with SevenDragons, I gained weight while there probably from routine 3 squares a day something I hadn’t had in the past.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]SevenDragons wrote:
As for military guys in boot camp; most get weaker DURING their time there. Now many can, and will grow because the military will feed them a lot [/quote]
I am curious how much time you got to eat at chow. I genuinely found that to be the limiting factor when it came to getting in calories.
[/quote]
At first not very much. Funny story, early on I was made a squad leader, which means me and 4 other guys (4 squad leaders and the guide) were last to sit down to chow. On more than one occasion our DI made us leave as the guide was sitting down. On those occasion I had about 30 seconds to cram as much food in my mouth as I could. We’re talking 3 bites, maybe, of just handfuls of food. We also had to eat with our left hand so the majority of us were eating slower until we adapted.
Towards the end of training you get more time. Probably 5-10 minutes once the guide sits down. It seemed like an eternity.
Edit:
Also I agree with SevenDragons, I gained weight while there probably from routine 3 squares a day something I hadn’t had in the past. [/quote]
Ah, I was talking to SevenDragons in particular. I was curious what his experience was like based on what he said. 10 minutes was about standard for my experience, but much like you noted, variables changed.