WHAT'S MORE COMMON OR IS IT 50/50

This question started out on another thread but I moved it to it’s own title because I didn’t want to hijack someone’s thread …is that the correct protocol or is it wasting board space?

What seems to be the general consensus around here, is it easier to be big and cut down or small and bulk up? In general I mean. And who’s the majority here …big people who have come down in size or small people who have gotten bigger? I don’t men in strict terms of LBM and BF% but just in overall general appearance.

meat 072 said “I can vouch for both.
4 years ago, I was a 5’11” 215# guard for my HS football team.
2 years ago, I was trying to burn off the fat foolishly, by calorie deficits + a ton of cardio (steady state) + lifting (overtraining). I got down to 163#.
Now, I’m at 182#, trying to get back up to a solid 195#.
All that it takes is drive, either way."

I agree with the drive …my biggest problem is I’m a lazy eater - all or nothing and have a hard time keeping it up for extended periods - any suggestions other than “get over it and eat”?

Its much easier to lose weight.

I think the general consensus is get your diet in line with your current bodyweight and activity level, stick to it, lift iron, and see what happens. I have heard people say “get lean first, then put muscle on” and then most people say “put muscle on, it burns the fat”. The latter seems to work for me.

In all honesty, unless you are relatively lean its probably going to be hard to see measurable progress in the short term. I think leaner people have a much easier time gauging their programs. I finally got my bf% down to about 15% or so and I find its easier for me to use my calipers to get moderately accurate readings… This, with my bodyweight, lets me know exactly what’s going on.

Hmm, swear I saw this recently, was it in one of the more recent t-mag issues or here…

Anyway, honestly I think it’s easier to bulk up with letting the bf slide into the teens, but then the cutting down part is always a touchy time.

Myself I think i’m gonna try the other route once i get down below 10%. Try to go up clean like joel is.

I guess it all depends on your priorities and abilities. Some peeps keep their lives uncluttered and thus have a very easy time manipulating everything, eating a buttload of meals, spending all day workingout and cooking and dont worry about much else. And then there is others who can’t even write down a food log if their lives depended on it.
Also would depend how obsessive/compulsive you get over the whole thing. If you are gonna fret over every last gram of macro’s, and if you can handle it when something goes amiss.
Take some setup like myself. With having 3 little kids it’s very difficult to structure everything perfectly. Sometimes my meals get spread 4 hours apart instead of 3. Sometimes I cant get into workout cause the kids fall asleep in the car and kick/scream/protest… And dont even talk to me about grocery shopping, lets see anyone do that really often with kids…

as goldberg eluded to it is definitely easy to lose “weight.” however losing body fat while maintaining lbm is very difficult.

it is also very difficult for a skinny person to pack on lbm.

i think the two are equally difficult.

i would like to add to this as i feel i have been reasonably little and reasonably big too.
i left school at just under 150lbs @ a bit over 6 foot, and couldn’t make a rugby team cause i was too small. by the end of my degree i was 235lb.
recently i dieted down to about 8% too.
both are hard but in a different way. bulking requires less dicipline but consistency over years.
cutting is much harder but only last (for me) 12-16 weeks.
eat clean (massive eating stylz) and both will be easy when you want to start either one.

Wow …lots of *ahem “food for thought”.

Seriously though thanks for the insight. As I stated before I am what I consider a lazy eater and my biggest problem is not keeping up proper eating habits for extended periods. I tried starting a food log, some of you may recall me asking about macronutrient profiles online, I’ve been using a basic online food log (hey, it’s a start)and it definitely gives me a good idea as to where I’m going wrong as well as what I’m doing right. My job has a lot to do with my eating habits too.

I’ll explain - for the past 2 weeks I’ve been on holidays so for starters, I’ve had time to keep my food log and I’ve been able to eat every 2-2 1/2 hours throughout the day. I’ve been able to control P+F, P+C meals and I’ve been able to work out at the same time every day.
Tomorrow I go back to work, up at 5:45 my ritual coffee, a protein shake and a cup of oatmeal and 1 hour later I’ll be leading 30 others in a 6km timed run …then my day starts. If all goes well I’ll have 3 or 4 meals planned out and in the fridge at work and I’ll go to the gym about 4-4:30. If all doesn’t go well, as is usually the case, I’ll be told half way during the post-run cool down that I have 30 minutes to be on the demolition range, I’ll have to eat ALL my food at once because there’s no fridge out there and the truck will break down on the way home at 6:30!!! Sounds like I’m joking but I’m not. If we’re on exercise it gets even trickier as we have to carry whatever we want to eat with us for the duration …this is usually where I lose most of my gains.

Anyway, my apologies for the whine-o-gram but this is why I’m here - to see if anyone has any suggestions.

I should mention, before someone asks, that I weigh 190-195 (it keeps changing) at 6’ tall. My goal is to “get bigger” (bulk) and I’m not worried about a little fat around the middle for now …if I can get to and maintain say 205 by the new year, I’ll work on the abs then …

I presume most people are going to say “dude, you must keep a food log” and if this is the only way to go then so be it …but I’m sure that guys like Goldberg for example don’t keep a food log …he just knows what he wants to eat and he eats. Granted he isn’t worried about a little fat gain in the process but neither am I. This bring it back to the original question - can he eat like that because he’s already big and as he says, it’s easier to cut than it is to bulk?

Food logs are a great tool to help tune in your mind to what your body is telling you.

Personal experience:
I was eating about 2800 cals with about 145g of fat (a lot of this from flax, fish oils, and naturally found omega-3s, along with a decent quantity of sat. fat from meats), 50-70g of carbs, and about 290-310g of protein. I used this as my jump start diet for about 3 weeks before going lower total cals for more significant fat loss. I found at this amount of protein, fat, and carbs I could maintain my weight (285 lbs, 35% BF, and looking shabby). I learned a lot from this and the next stage of keeping my log. I then dropped total cals by 250 for a week, then another 250 the following week. I started losing the BF but I was making gians in strength (because I hadn’t lifted in close to 3 years) and some lean mass. I lowered the total again by 250 cals and am losing BF and maintaining my lbm pretty well. I have a lot to lose though, but I learned a lot by “experimenting” with my body and caloric intake for a few weeks. I know I could have much better results at this point (4 weeks into my “damn, I got to get in shape” phase) but I learned so much about how my body reacts to the workouts and nutritional consumption that I truely consider myself ahead of schedule (in knowledge and knowing what works for me).

Now as I lose more BF and hopefully gain a bit of LBM, I will adjust the caloric intake along with my workouts to compliment my body’s reactions to these factors.

BTW I’m 5’10", 285 lbs, 35% BF, 185 lbs lbm. I’m using T-dawg as my “guide” diet, using a progressive work loads in training (to build strength and endurance), and doing HIIT, and 30 minutes of moderate bike work 3 times a week. I plan to do EDT eventually, once my body tells me it’s time to start kicking it into high gear. I am progressing, adapting, and learning.

It’s all part of the process. The diets and exercise routines outlined on here are great, but they are not 100% perfect for anyone. You still need to adjust everything according to what your body tells you, as I found out during the first few weeks of experimenting.

Keep a food log, it WILL help.

Work hard, be smart, and listen to your body.

I don’t know a lot about bodybuilding, weight training, and diet, but I know that the food log has helped me and I will continue to experiment and listen to the folks here and what my body is telling me.

Patrick

I fogot to answer your main question here. I think dropping weight may be a bit easier if your determined and have discipline. Everything though is very dependant on the individual, as stated many times in these forums and in the articles. You really have to learn the basic concepts behind any diet and exercise routine, then customize it to your body’s needs.

Ragn - thanks for the thoughts, it helps. I guess basic concepts is what I’m working on.

Alright guys, more than one person out there either has a suggestion for me or knows where to send me for one. I don’t think my questions were all that unreasonable. If you don’t want to give me the answer just point me back in the right direction and I’ll go and read the back issues again.

Maybe it’s just because it’s Sunday afternoon and everyone is standing around the BBQ - which is where I’m going right now :slight_smile:

Here’s an example of how I eat now - both good and bad - keep in mind I used to eat 2-3 times a day, no breakfast whatsoever and I ate what my kids ate (frozen pizza, hot dogs, french fries) so I am making changes.

Coffee w/powdered creamer+sugar
1 cup oatmeal
protein shake/milk/1 tbsp natural PB

coffee
bannana
natural PB/whole wheat bread

bbq steak
baked potato

tuna

sugar-based creatine during workout

protein shake/PB

bbq chicken breast(2 if they’re small)
rice
salad
fish oil caps
flax oil caps

PB sandwich

Protein shake

This is just a sample day, lunch usually consists of whatever is left over from supper the night before. I usually try to make this a solid meat source. Sometimes I eat yogurt, sometimes I drink more coffee, sometimes less. Breakfast is usually the same unless there’s going to be heavy cardio within 45 minutes. I know I probably drink too many protein shakes but I’m pretty active at work and always hungry but there’s not always time to make something. I’m always hungry in the evening too.

Hmm. I think I see a few things. One thing that I do to make sure that I don’t “cheat” or eat something that is “bad for me” is I make meals ahead of time. Don’t have time? I find that I can make 18 meals in about 45 minutes once I’ve got everything. If you aren’t supplementing with protein shakes, that’s 3 days of meals there, 4-5 if you are supplementing. At the moment my diet has changed somewhat so I make the basics ahead of time and then build the meals every morning before work, BUT you can do it all ahead of time.

Instead of going through everything opinion-wise, I’ll just post what I’m eating right now. This is for cutting fat: I’m 6’2, 230 at about 16%. One day I week I go hog wild with food; I still make “wise” choices but I eat and eat and eat, and occasionally go on a caloriefest at subshops, Panera, etc.

I use the “taper method”. I’m only P+F the last 3 meals as I feel better when consuming all three macronutrients together earlier in the day.

There is no “diet” or “low fat” anything here.

Breakfast:
4 egg whites, 1 whole egg
1 orange
8 oz oatmeal (cooked… about 1 cup)
1/2 tbsp of flax seeds (mixed with oatmeal after cooking)
400ish cal

Snack:
1/2 cup cottage cheese
5 oz chicken (baked skinless boneless thigh, drained well)
1 banana
455 cal

Lunch:
1/2 cup cottage cheese
5 oz chicken (same above)
1 banana
1 apple
1 slice of flax bread or some nut-loaded stone ground wheat thing
645 cal

Snack:
1 cup cottage cheese
15 grams pistachios (mixed into cheese)
1/2 tbps flax seeds(mixed into)
355 cal

Dinner:
4oz chicken (same above)
15g pistachios (mixed in)
1/2 tbsp flax seeds(mixed)
2 tbsp salsa (mixed)
305 cal

Late night:
1/2 cup cottage cheese
1/2 tbsp flax seeds
150 cal

Total is about 2400 cal for a day. On workout days, I sometimes supplement with surge-like shakes post-workout. It depends on how I feel (this is a choice to keep sugar down in my diet).

There is no “BBQ chicken” here or “PB” sandwiches. I’m very specific about what I eat at what times, and what makes it convenient is that I’ve made my food allotment for the day in the morning; everything in the cooler gets consumed. Nothing more than that goes into my stomach in any given day, no matter what. This isn’t an example of what you should do, just an example of a structured method of getting somewhere. This has worked for me so far; I’ve been testing it out for 3 weeks now. When it stops working, I’ll change it up, and I do substitute equal portions of food sometimes to keep things relatively interesting, even though I’m typically not complaining about repetition.

Get a food scale (I have an electronic which is nice, but boing-boing scales work good too), some ziplock containers, and some food relative to a diet that you design. Get a small cooler and some Blue Ice pouches to freeze. Weighing food doesn’t take as long as you think and after you do it for a while, you sorta take pride in knowing exactly what you are consuming. Its a nice control factor over your whole body that for me, makes all aspects of my training program better.

So CDN you are saying you actually bring the steak and chicken and so on out to the field each day?

On those pb meals are you somehow staying below 10 grams fat since you have carbs mixed in there or ?

I guess it’s probably not easy to drag veggies out into the field with you, but you do need some.

What about canned tuna/salmon? Beef jerky? sausage? hard boiled eggs? I know some of those things are p+f meals though.

Deezlodawg …I’m starting to get more disciplined at making my meals ahead of time(it’s sometimes hard not to eat what my wife and 2 kids are)and I’m getting better at it. Right now I’m just planning one day ahead but I’ll try as you said and prep a few days at a time and see how it goes.
I kind of wish you had gone through everything “opinion wise” but that’s okay, I thing I see what you’re getting at. Your sample day is for cutting fat - what do I do differently to bulk?

AL - no, that was my point, a lot of times I plan on being near the fridge all day so I can take all my small meals to work. If I have to leave unexpectedly for the day I end up having to “use it or lose it” so I eat all the perishables at once and go hungry the rest of the day. If I know in advance how long I’m going to be sometimes I can take that stuff with me though - it depends what we’re doing, sometimes it’s impossible.
The PB meals are natural PB and either whole wheat or flax bread, nothing else. Should I be bothered about the fat? Veggies are easy on a day to basis so I’ll add some to my daily routine …one of the snack meals maybe?
Tuna, salmon, eggs are all eaten regularly -jerky gets too expensive and I love sausage …what kind am I allowed to eat???

So what should I change about the way I eat, can someone tell me HOW TO DECIDE which meals are PC and which should be PF or does it really matter considering my particular goals. I guess I mean how can I best split up the food I eat to achieve my goal, is that a better question?

No comment on all the coffee?

Thanks for the feedback gents, this is exactly what I’m after.

Well, there are numerous diets on this website to choose from. You have TDawg2.0, there’s Massive Eating, etc. Check out “The Beast Evolves” in a previous issue (probably a couple of months ago) and there is a link to some dieting stuff. He went for fat loss but he’s got some good advice and there is a link to figure calories for Massive Eating.

As far as diet is concerned, the basics for me were at least 1 gram of protein per lb of lean body mass, 100-150g of carbs, and the rest fat based on caloric needs for my body size and composition. Then there’s the splitting P+C and P+F meals which I do for the latter 1/2 of the day. I would think you could add size with that, maybe increasing the protein a little. 1.5g per lb of body mass? Start at 1, go a few weeks, evaluate, and change as necessary.

I would think that, with 1 gallon of water a day and a multivitamin would get you started.

Whats your body type? Are you mostly fast twitch or slow twitch? Do you have a fast metabolism or a slow one? Whats your activity level like? Do you supplement?

Slow tiwtchers are notorious for their slender build, and for their difficulty in adding mass to their build - they’re your marathon runners.
Fast twitchers are known for their massive build and ability to add mass very easily - but have difficulty shedding it down. They’re your Dave Tates.

Do you have a fast metabolism? Than youll have more difficulty adding mass. High activity levels? Same thing.
Do you supplement with carnitine, prohormones, thermogenics like ephedra…? Than your ability to shed the pounds will be much greater, but wont be adding any mass on very easily.

Also, what is the size of your wrists, ankles, and whats your height? There’s only so much your body can do with your frame. There’s actually an equation used to determine whats your highest weight at a specific bodyfat level, using your height, wrist and ankle measurements…

I dont know what i fit into. I can gain weight pretty easily. But i can also lose weight very fast and keep most of my muscle in the process. I guess im a freak. To me its so simple. When im ready to lose weight i just eat carbs in the morning and post workout only and protein and fat in my other meals of the day. Lots of flax and lots of fish oil. It works every time.

Deezlodawg(had to check the spelling 3 times!!) - I’ll go back and revisit T-Dawg and massive Eating …from what I remember they both talk a lot about fat loss though, unless I’ve read so many that I’m confusing them, which is probably the case. I missed that link too.
Right now I’m at between 1 and 1.5g protein per lb of body weight …I remember reading one of the articles that said you should shoot for 2g per lb of your TARGET WEIGHT …now I have to go fing which article that was!!! Anyway - I think I may be on the right track here?

Diesel - I’m slow twitch, definitely …although I’m no marathon runner I could be if my job had it’s way. fast metabolism, not really, it seems to have slowed down as I’ve gotten older …but I have an extremely high level of activity on a daily basis. Right now I don’t supplement with anything other than protein and some fish/flax oil pills …I did do Mag-10 2 weeks ago - it worked as promised and I’m up about 5 lbs, now I’m trying to keep it on :slight_smile:
I have a picture on the Photo forum that was taken pre Mag-10, it’s titled BACK PIX.

Goldberg - give me your opinion knowing what you do about me, my activity level and my goals …how should I eat to gain??