What's a Good Clean?

Training Powerlifting
61

[quote]newbatman wrote:
Alffi wrote:
Yet Antonio Krastev (snatch WR) allegedly barely left the ground when it came to jumping.

ignore the heavy weights in olympic lifts for jumping measurements because they have adipose tissue too weighing them down…

you must know the study where the Olympic Lifters had the highest vertical jumps at the Olympics of any sport and fastest 20 meter sprint times…[/quote]

Cheryl Hayworth, the last American to medal, weighed over 160 kilos. She had a vertical of over 35 inches. That is pretty good for a huge woman.

62

[quote]elih8er wrote:
Alffi wrote:
elih8er wrote:
Alffi, you really have no understanding of the mechanics of the lifts or the raw strength involved. Please let us know how much you can clean and jerk.

Since you already called me an idiot, to you my clean and jerk will be 650 pounds.

Edit:I’m sorry I responded. I perceive this to be off-topic.

If you claim a power curl is equivalent to a power clean that would be idiotic, hence you be called an idiot. Anyone who has experience with the olympic lifts would find this statement to be ridiculous, calling into question your actual training experiences with the lifts.

According to you, learning the power clean is an impossible task not meant for the average athlete. But, did you notice the last word of the sentence? If an athlete cannot perform a power clean, they are not much of athlete to begin with.

It takes most athletes a week or less to become proficient in the power clean. This has been my personal experience training people with ZERO experience with the lifts.

The lifts are valuable training tools for any athlete because they teach an individual to become explosive. You simply cannot perform a clean and jerk or snatch slow, while other lifts such as bench press, PL lifter-esque squats, and deadlifts can be ground out.

They can be performed explosively, BUT success of the lift is not dependent on the speed of force generation. Further, powerlifting lifts are not POWER lifts they are strength lifts. The force generation required to jerk 150 kg for a single compared to benching 150 kg for reps are not even remotely comparable.

Throwers focus on the lifts because throwing events are dependent on rapid maximal force generation. Lineman focus on them because dominating the person across from you is wholly dependent on the power you can generate in milliseconds.

Combat sport athletes use them because beating the shit out of the guy in front of you is dependent on how much force you can punch someone with.

Does that make sense to you?[/quote]

I’m not saying they are the same thing but the difference is quantitative rather than qualitative.

Some use them,some don’t. Some people in weightlifting are really cocky about the imagined superiority of their lifts of preference.

Some small women can jerk 150. How many small women can bench 150 raw? Even many men who can CJ in excess of 440/200kg would be buried by that bench. The former is an example of decent strength combined with impressive,very specific kinesthetic smarts and the latter of strength.

The latter has carryover to a lot of stuff independent of the above mentioned smarts while the specific skill of the former does not (?)

Not dependent on speed of force generation? Well,ATP runs out fast and I don’t think many can hesitate can with their max. The one who can generate the same force faster wins.

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[quote]Alffi wrote:

Some small women can jerk 150. How many small women can bench 150 raw?[/quote]

women work on glutes their whole life and upper body as an after thought…

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[quote]I’m not saying they are the same thing but the difference is quantitative rather than qualitative.

Some use them,some don’t. Some people in weightlifting are really cocky about the imagined superiority of their lifts of preference.

Some small women can jerk 150. How many small women can bench 150 raw? Even many men who can CJ in excess of 440/200kg would be buried by that bench. The former is an example of decent strength combined with impressive,very specific kinesthetic smarts and the latter of strength.[/quote]

No. Do want to see Chigishev bench 225 kgs like you probably bench 60 kgs? The olympic lifts are not accomplished by technique alone, but require brutal strength.

[quote]The latter has carryover to a lot of stuff independent of the above mentioned smarts while the specific skill of the former does not (?)[/quote]Again, you making it sound the power clean and jerk are too complicated for implementation in strength training.

They’re not. You can become quite adequate in their execution within a week of training. In athletes it shouldn’t be a concern about them “getting it.” They are athletes, it should come naturally to them and for many athletes it does.

If a guy can back squat high bar 200 kgs, a 150 kg jerk shouldn’t be a problem.
When is an athlete on their back pushing a guy off their chest? If I am an offensive lineman and I am blocking a guy, I am not using just my chest, I am using my hips, legs back, shoulders, core, everything to keep him in place.

What? I can’t understand what you wrote or if you agree with what I said. In the athletic events I described, the guy who wins is not the guy who can generate the most force, but the most force as fast as possible, what the lifts teach.

65

Wait…arent you the guy who was trying to convince people a few months ago that powerlifters should use snatch grip pulls from a 12 inch deficit to build their deadlift? Didnt you also say that powerlifters should avoid “maximizing leverages” and that bar weight was irrelevant to powerlifters training for limit strength, as long as the bar “felt heavy”?

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_strength/deadlift_rom?id=2560863&pageNo=0

Maybe you should avoid posting in this forum and go hang out in the bodybuilding forum with Nominal Prospect. You guys seem to have equally incorrect perspectives when it comes to training.

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Not bad for a guy who’s workouts don’t revolve around power curls and lateral raises. Think how high he’d jump if he only knew…

67

[quote]newbatman wrote:
Alffi wrote:
Yet Antonio Krastev (snatch WR) allegedly barely left the ground when it came to jumping.

ignore the heavy weights in olympic lifts for jumping measurements because they have adipose tissue too weighing them down…

you must know the study where the Olympic Lifters had the highest vertical jumps at the Olympics of any sport and fastest 20 meter sprint times…[/quote]

I believe the study you are thinking of turned out to be purely fictional.

68

[quote]elih8er wrote:
newbatman wrote:
Alffi wrote:
Yet Antonio Krastev (snatch WR) allegedly barely left the ground when it came to jumping.

ignore the heavy weights in olympic lifts for jumping measurements because they have adipose tissue too weighing them down…

you must know the study where the Olympic Lifters had the highest vertical jumps at the Olympics of any sport and fastest 20 meter sprint times…

Cheryl Hayworth, the last American to medal, weighed over 160 kilos. She had a vertical of over 35 inches. That is pretty good for a huge woman.[/quote]

Do you honestly believe that number is legit?

69

i agree with regular gonzalez on that call, first thing i thought of when i saw that is bullshit

70

Here’s Pyrros Dimas showing his hops.

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[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
elih8er wrote:
newbatman wrote:
Alffi wrote:
Yet Antonio Krastev (snatch WR) allegedly barely left the ground when it came to jumping.

ignore the heavy weights in olympic lifts for jumping measurements because they have adipose tissue too weighing them down…

you must know the study where the Olympic Lifters had the highest vertical jumps at the Olympics of any sport and fastest 20 meter sprint times…

Cheryl Hayworth, the last American to medal, weighed over 160 kilos. She had a vertical of over 35 inches. That is pretty good for a huge woman.

Do you honestly believe that number is legit?

[/quote]
Yes. It was published in USAW magazine. They compared the verticals between the USA women’s team and that of the USA women’s volley ball team. Weightlifters won.

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Is the 1 x bodyweight, 1.5 x bodyweight as appropriate a goal for a woman? (should I expect to scale the same?) I can c&j 100 lbs (I weigh 145) but cleaning any more than 100 seems incredibly difficult for me at this point.

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elih8er, no disrespect, but this goes back to not believing everything you read, but that is just untrue (i very well beleive you read that in the magazine but its still not true)

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[quote]debraD wrote:
Is the 1 x bodyweight, 1.5 x bodyweight as appropriate a goal for a woman? (should I expect to scale the same?) I can c&j 100 lbs (I weigh 145) but cleaning any more than 100 seems incredibly difficult for me at this point.[/quote]
With women who do not compete in the lifts, I would say .85 and 1.35 bodyweight are good goals. I train with three women and they all snatch well over body weight.

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[quote]brian.m wrote:
elih8er, no disrespect, but this goes back to not believing everything you read, but that is just untrue (i very well beleive you read that in the magazine but its still not true)[/quote]

Anyone who gets USAW quarterly saw the same thing (published by the USAW). I do not doubt it. It may have been 30 inches, I forget, but Hayworth is stupid strong for a woman.

76

[quote]brian.m wrote:
elih8er, no disrespect, but this goes back to not believing everything you read, but that is just untrue (i very well beleive you read that in the magazine but its still not true)[/quote]

No offense, but that’s one hell of an emphatic statement. What are you basing it on? If that’s just your own sense of what’s true and you don’t have any evidence, then why should anyone believe what you write over what was written in a USAW magazine?

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ivandmitritch, i just havnt ever seen anything that would point otherwise, ever, in my life but to weight the odds
(i edited it because i realized i came off more of an asshole than anticipated)

first of all, i’ve yet to ever see a legit 35" standing 2 foot vertical by a girl…ever, online, anywhere in the world, ever
-for the first time while waying almost 350 lbs…no fucking way
-i have friends that are female that squat 2X bodyweight (and she is Not going to be squatting more than 700 lbs so the ratio is going to be better than hers) and i can jump way higher higher standing vertical then they can…and i cant jump very well
-think back on all the athletes you know or have worked with, and try to remember how many girls can jump

-its always boggled my mind…they can be very strong and very fast…light, most of the weight is in their legs and hips anyways…and nothing… not great jumping considering all the other factors

78

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Even many men who can CJ in excess of 440/200kg would be buried by that bench. The former is an example of decent strength combined with impressive,very specific kinesthetic smarts and the latter of strength.

The latter has carryover to a lot of stuff independent of the above mentioned smarts while the specific skill of the former does not[/quote]

This is totally incorrect and 99.9% of strength coaches would agree. Olympic lifts have more athletic carryover for many of the reasons already posted above (explosive strength, deceleration/receiving weight, flexibility, coordination, etc.) all of which are broadly applicable to many sports. A bench press is merely a test of specific strength which has a lesser usefulness. Its not to say the bench press is not a useful exercise, it just has less carryover.

The notion that you keep insinuating that olympic lifts require some godly skill to perform or take decades to learn is ridiculous. This is true only if you want to be at the elite level whereas athletes can start benefiting from them within weeks of learning.

79

[quote]brian.m wrote:
ivandmitritch, i just havnt ever seen anything that would point otherwise, ever, in my life but to weight the odds
(i edited it because i realized i came off more of an asshole than anticipated)

first of all, i’ve yet to ever see a legit 35" standing 2 foot vertical by a girl…ever, online, anywhere in the world, ever
-for the first time while waying almost 350 lbs…no fucking way
-i have friends that are female that squat 2X bodyweight (and she is Not going to be squatting more than 700 lbs so the ratio is going to be better than hers) and i can jump way higher higher standing vertical then they can…and i cant jump very well
-think back on all the athletes you know or have worked with, and try to remember how many girls can jump

-its always boggled my mind…they can be very strong and very fast…light, most of the weight is in their legs and hips anyways…and nothing… not great jumping considering all the other factors[/quote]Shane Hamman could stand under a basketball hoop and dunk it with a both hands. He was about 5’10" and weighed well over 160 kgs. He could also do back flips at will.

473×668 84.8 KB

I mean look at that.
I may have exaggerated her numbers in the vertical. It may be 30". Thinking about it, she is not 160kgs, but probably 140-150. Still, it is mind boggling either way. I don’t have a reason to doubt the numbers in the vertical jump competition between the women’s v-ballers and weightlifters.

80

[quote]brian.m wrote:
ivandmitritch, i just havnt ever seen anything that would point otherwise, ever, in my life but to weight the odds
(i edited it because i realized i came off more of an asshole than anticipated)

first of all, i’ve yet to ever see a legit 35" standing 2 foot vertical by a girl…ever, online, anywhere in the world, ever
-for the first time while waying almost 350 lbs…no fucking way
-i have friends that are female that squat 2X bodyweight (and she is Not going to be squatting more than 700 lbs so the ratio is going to be better than hers) and i can jump way higher higher standing vertical then they can…and i cant jump very well
-think back on all the athletes you know or have worked with, and try to remember how many girls can jump

-its always boggled my mind…they can be very strong and very fast…light, most of the weight is in their legs and hips anyways…and nothing… not great jumping considering all the other factors[/quote]

Fair enough. I understand that it’s an extraordinary claim, and there’s nothing wrong with skepticism.