What Works? What is BS?

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]VikingsAD28 wrote:
if you improve your bench from 300 for 8 to 300 for 10, you have gotten stronger.[/quote]

You have gotten stronger with your 300 bench, that does not always carry-over to your limit strength ie 1 rep max or competition max. Myself and a couple of my training partners actually had our 1 rep max go down, while the submaximal reps went up. For a competitive powerlifter, this is bad. Probably why Jim has said in the past that he didn’t recommend 531 for competitive lifters.

Not stirring shit, just giving a different perspective.

42

[quote]andrew88 wrote:

My dilemma is that Matt K and all those guys are already strong. Are the high reps really getting them stronger or are they throwing in a change up because they have done so many workouts with the low reps to build their strength up to the amazing levels that they are at. When I see Kroc’s log I see that he simply resorted to that high rep stuff because he had no training partners.I doubt he would recommend doing around 20% or so of his one rep max for forty reps as a means for getting strong (he probably could have done 80+ reps with 135 anyways). Sure, it might help his 750lb bench because he has done so much of everything else, but for mere mortals it probably will not.Also, if you do eight reps with your true eight rep max weight, those 6,7,8 reps are usually going to be pretty shitty as your base starts to loosen up and the elbows start to wobble. Sure, you could probably keep it tight using your 12-15 rep max for eight, but is that really helping you more than 5 or less reps with big weight would?

[/quote]

If you really have a dilema, then look at any pro bodybuilder or strongman. They do lots of high reps and can bench a lot. If that doesn’t satisfy you, look at all the people who have said “5/3/1” on this thread.

So what if your “base starts to loosen up and the elbows start to wobble”? You’re still working the muscles hard and thus getting stronger. Many people have built strong benches without ever hearing about having a solid base.

43

[quote] Matt wrote:
VikingsAD28 wrote:
if you improve your bench from 300 for 8 to 300 for 10, you have gotten stronger.

You have gotten stronger with your 300 bench, that does not always carry-over to your limit strength ie 1 rep max or competition max. Myself and a couple of my training partners actually had our 1 rep max go down, while the submaximal reps went up. For a competitive powerlifter, this is bad. Probably why Jim has said in the past that he didn’t recommend 531 for competitive lifters.

Not stirring shit, just giving a different perspective.

[/quote]

While everyone is different, that certainly wasn’t the experience of this powerlifter:
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=104418&tid=63

I also have never heard of Jim saying the program isn’t recommended for competitive powerlifters. He has said that it is intended for RAW lifters as opposed to geared ones, but IIRC the manual has testimonials like the one linked above. Why would he have those if he doesn’t recommend it for PL?

44

[quote]andrew88 wrote:
OBoile wrote:
andrew88 wrote:
Mateus wrote:
andrew88 wrote:
For example (In my opinion, from my experience): High reps (anything higher than 5 reps) on the bench press are bullshit because, if you bench correctly, you form starts to loosen up no matter how focused you are on staying tight…

I am sure that all the DC’ers would disagree with you on that statement. Granted it is only one working set with RP, it is still higher rep.

Sure, they might like high reps on bench for getting bigger. But for powerlifting, if you can stay tight for more than five reps, the weight is usually too light to really help you get any stronger (unless of course you are doing speed work)

Not sure where you are getting this idea. Lots of people have gained significant strength with reps > 5 on the bench.

Significant strength? Or Significant size? Who are these guys who got strong with high reps? And I mean strong, not seeing your bench go from 135 to 185 using 3x10 on a chest day from a M&F magazine.This is a powerlifting thread, we are talking big weight. I have yet to hear of big time powerlifters getting a big bench using high reps…Maybe you have?

[/quote]

The first time I benched 350 lbs (raw), I had never done any rep scheme lower volume than a 3x5. Most of my benching experience was in a 3x8 (yep, lol). I had actually never touched more than 280 lbs in a set before. I only weighed ~180 at the time.

I moved into ME work from there and never got much out of it. My ~10 months on a westside inspired routine was easily the least productive time of my training career. My joints ached all the time and my bench didn’t move one bit. Did great things for my squat though!

Later, when I finally hit 355 (I only weighed 170 at that point, first time at over 2x bodyweight), I was doing sets of 5+ again.

As a side note, I don’t set up in powerlifting form anymore for every single set of bench press - that’s a lot of stress on the facet joints / SI, and mine are kinda torched as it is. It’s not necessary to make gains. I do it for my top set and that’s it… and even then I don’t get super tight. I only do that when I’m truly going to max out. Point is, you don’t need to get powerlifting tight to improve your bench press. I just tuck my shoulderblades and that’s it. To compare to an elite, I think I remember reading somewhere that Rock Lewis (600 lb raw bencher @ 240 lbs) liked to bench with his feet in the air.

Now, about 5/3/1.

Recently, I’ve been following the work sets for the 5/3/1 routine and my own thing after that, and I’ve had great results. My standing overhead press “max” has gone from 145x7 reps to 165x10 reps in 4 months… incline bench press from 250x6 to 270x7… consistent and steady improvement.

I think the real thing 5/3/1 has done for me is it just has made lifting fun again for me. Training clients all day, then working out, joints stiff and sore from tons of ME work… it’s just not conducive to good training sessions. Every day that I work out I get to look forward to setting a new PR… and I can finish my workout in an hour instead of needing 30-45 minutes alone to do ME work.

45

[quote]OBoile wrote:
While everyone is different, that certainly wasn’t the experience of this powerlifter:
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=104418&tid=63

I also have never heard of Jim saying the program isn’t recommended for competitive powerlifters. He has said that it is intended for RAW lifters as opposed to geared ones, but IIRC the manual has testimonials like the one linked above. Why would he have those if he doesn’t recommend it for PL?
[/quote]

In the original 531, it states:

When that came out and the barrage of retarded 531 questions started, I remember him saying similar things that if he were still competing he would probably do something different and that he would probably not advise competitive lifters to use that. Maybe that has changed since then, I don’t read the 531 Q&A as the program is pretty straightforward and I don’t see the need for all the dumb questions, and thus don’t know. Don’t really care either. I didn’t buy the 531 manual because I thought he pretty well covered it in Training 3 Days a week.

Anyways I was just saying that it might not be the best for those of us who compete. You may have read testimonials, but I actually talk to lifters at meets and in person gasp.

Do what you want and what makes you happy. If 531 makes you bust a nut, more power to you. That said, there are many ways to skin a cat, don’t discount other training styles because you feel you’ve found the holy grail.

46

Dude everything has the potential to work. It really depends on you.

If you look at just the differences among routines that people here are using they are huge. Then take a look at what a lot of high level powerlifters have used, the routines are nothing alike.

Some are training each lift 1-2x per week

Others are hitting it 3-4+ x per week.

And then there are some that dont even train the comp. lifts but use variations.

Some are doing a few singles and thats it

While others are doing high volume and higher reps.

And some are doing a ton of accessory work

while others are doing no accessory work.

So basically what works, is what will allow you to lift more weight at a certain point in time.

47

[quote]dankid wrote:
Dude everything has the potential to work. It really depends on you.

If you look at just the differences among routines that people here are using they are huge. Then take a look at what a lot of high level powerlifters have used, the routines are nothing alike.

Some are training each lift 1-2x per week

Others are hitting it 3-4+ x per week.

And then there are some that dont even train the comp. lifts but use variations.

Some are doing a few singles and thats it

While others are doing high volume and higher reps.

And some are doing a ton of accessory work

while others are doing no accessory work.

So basically what works, is what will allow you to lift more weight at a certain point in time.[/quote]

For sure. When I started this thread I just wanted to see opinions based off of experiences. I realize that opinions are going to differ (My idea of no high reps on bench for example). So many people have tried so much stuff and results are really varied. I guess this thread was just a test to see if there were any noticeable similarities in opinions that really stood out…

48

The first time I followed a basic Westside template I put on 60 pounds in 8 wks to my dead. Works for me as long as I deload properly.

49

[quote]andrew88 wrote:

For sure. When I started this thread I just wanted to see opinions based off of experiences. I realize that opinions are going to differ (My idea of no high reps on bench for example). So many people have tried so much stuff and results are really varied. I guess this thread was just a test to see if there were any noticeable similarities in opinions that really stood out…

[/quote]

Just be careful basing anything off of opinions. People have opinions and follow programs like religions. And like synthetic mentioned, right now 5/3/1 is the “in thing” but next year it will be something different. Its most important to see the similarities among programs and methods rather than the differences.

I agree about bench, and really all the powerlifts for that matter. I will no longer do anything above 3 reps for the most part, I may go to 5 occasionally but almost everything will be singles, doubles, and triples. Accessory work will be different, but I think for someone that is more novice like myself, and can still gain a lot from technique, keeping the reps low is a good safe bet.

50

General training approaches that seem to have worked well for me:

Simple Westside ala Simmons and Tates articles from a fews ago.

Westside variations where I dropped speed work in favor of rep work.

Squat heavy one week- pull heavy another. A brutally simple way to go heavy every week without burning out.

Benching in a shirt every week. I did this for a few years. It tought me how to use a shirt

NOT benching in a shirt every week. Now that most of the technique stuff is pretty much second nature, putting on a shirt every second or thrid week seems to keep my nervous systme fresh.

Block periodization approach to squatting.

Old school bench linear periodization approach to raw bench (I literally used that Coan Bench Routine calculator that has floated around the web for years)

Things that did not work well for me:

Sheiko style plans. I adapted quickly to the volume. My work capcity went up. My lifts went nowhere.

Squat peaking plans involving heavy band tension (such as Westside style cica max ) or chains. I like ME work with chain bands. However, these approaches to meet preparation involving chains/bands have not really worked well for me. For me, the best meet preparation seems to involve squatting straight weight.

Anything involving pulling significant weight more often than twice a month. I get beat up quickly.

51

What has worked
Triples on a 3 step forward 1 step back 3 step forward 1 step back…
Heavy weeks followed by light weeks
Pulling more often
More assistance work

BS
Pulling from the floor once every 3 weeks
Pulling less often in general
Good nutrition- it did nothing

52

[quote]andrew88 wrote:
Significant strength? Or Significant size? Who are these guys who got strong with high reps? And I mean strong, not seeing your bench go from 135 to 185 using 3x10 on a chest day from a M&F magazine.This is a powerlifting thread, we are talking big weight. I have yet to hear of big time powerlifters getting a big bench using high reps…Maybe you have?
[/quote]

raises hand I’ve gotten my best strength gains ever from a DC routine. I hit a 655 squat, 415 bench, and 675 deadlift (all raw) while doing DC earlier this year. I’m going to Raw Unity 2010 in January and will exceed all of those lifts.

I’m trying some other routines now, but will probably come back to DC if I don’t find anything that works better.

53

[quote]Pinto wrote:
Squat heavy one week- pull heavy another. A brutally simple way to go heavy every week without burning out.
[/quote]

What is your set/rep scheme for those heavy days, if you don’t mind me asking? Also, what % of your max do you work with on those days?

54

[quote]FROGGBUSTER wrote:
Pinto wrote:
Squat heavy one week- pull heavy another. A brutally simple way to go heavy every week without burning out.

What is your set/rep scheme for those heavy days, if you don’t mind me asking? Also, what % of your max do you work with on those days?
[/quote]

The goal was to take a max or near max single, double, or sometimes triple. On the heavy squat week, maybe do some lighter pulls afterwards. On the heavy deadlift week, I would usually squat light first- “light” being relative to how I’m feeling that day.