What Naturals are Truly Capable of...

Training
1021

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

No one exceptional ever achieved anything by thinking about what their limits were. It was the belief that they could achieve anything and that everyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves that carried them there.
[/quote]

I thought about doing it before even posting this and coming here with results, but I’d be willing to bet that plenty of exceptional people thought they wouldn’t achieve what they did. I’m sure we’ve all heard the quote ‘never in my wildest dreams did I think I could ’ spoken by various athletes, entrepreneurs, great men of science(probably slightly different phrasing for them), etc.

There are plenty of hall of fame speeches littered with statements like “I never thought I’d be a hall of famer I just tried to work as hard as I could in practice, play my best in every game, and just be the best I could, and it’s amazing that it got me this far.” There are some RARE exceptions to this like MJ who basically told everyone ‘fuck you I knew I was the greatest’ but in a sort of ironic twist, despite the fact that in most peoples’ eyes he did become ‘the greatest’ his name is actually nowhere near as proliferated in record books as say, Wilt or Russel.

Basically my long winded way of saying ‘absolute statements are silly.’

Also FWIW, as you point out, exceptional people don’t let the words of others deter them from becoming said exception. So, what harm is there in having whatever we’re calling it now(guideline, benchmark, limit, goal, ceiling, you’re not black so you can’t be as developed as a black man, etc) for everyone else, because the opposite psychological effect exists(research has been shown in support of this in the numerous threads of discussion), and people can be deterred from ‘doing their best’ if they start to have unrealistic thoughts of what they SHOULD be capable of. I accept that people deterred by this line of reasoning are also weak willed and probably were never going to achieve peak natural status either, but why is it ok to ‘argue’ for one side and not the other?

1022

[quote]super saiyan wrote:
Why is Stu always Yellin? We’re trying to have a civil conversation in here.[/quote]

BEST POST

1023

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

No one exceptional ever achieved anything by thinking about what their limits were. It was the belief that they could achieve anything and that everyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves that carried them there.
[/quote]

I thought about doing it before even posting this and coming here with results, but I’d be willing to bet that plenty of exceptional people thought they wouldn’t achieve what they did. I’m sure we’ve all heard the quote ‘never in my wildest dreams did I think I could ’ spoken by various athletes, entrepreneurs, great men of science(probably slightly different phrasing for them), etc.

There are plenty of hall of fame speeches littered with statements like “I never thought I’d be a hall of famer I just tried to work as hard as I could in practice, play my best in every game, and just be the best I could, and it’s amazing that it got me this far.” There are some RARE exceptions to this like MJ who basically told everyone ‘fuck you I knew I was the greatest’ but in a sort of ironic twist, despite the fact that in most peoples’ eyes he did become ‘the greatest’ his name is actually nowhere near as proliferated in record books as say, Wilt or Russel.

Basically my long winded way of saying ‘absolute statements are silly.’

Also FWIW, as you point out, exceptional people don’t let the words of others deter them from becoming said exception. So, what harm is there in having whatever we’re calling it now(guideline, benchmark, limit, goal, ceiling, you’re not black so you can’t be as developed as a black man, etc) for everyone else, because the opposite psychological effect exists(research has been shown in support of this in the numerous threads of discussion), and people can be deterred from ‘doing their best’ if they start to have unrealistic thoughts of what they SHOULD be capable of. I accept that people deterred by this line of reasoning are also weak willed and probably were never going to achieve peak natural status either, but why is it ok to ‘argue’ for one side and not the other?[/quote]

Theres no harm in any of this discussion at all. For those with the right mindset, the supposed “limits” will just be fuel to the fire.

I disagree that most successful people have the mindest as you describe it. When they say never in their wildest dreams they are referring to a time before their mindset changed. Once it changed then they knew they would be the best, which is why they became it.

1024

These threads just go on and on dont they?

I think the best thing to do to sift the wheat from the chaff is simply to know who to listen to depending on your goals.

If your goal is to be huge but very fat then PX is your man.

If however your goals are somewhat different i.e big but LEAN so you can actually SEE the muscles not just argue they are real, then to my mind and for my goals, Stu and Zraw are the people who have walked the walk and know what it would take to get me there and its to them obviously that I would give my ear to.

What are naturals able to achieve? I really dont know, but I sure as hell would rather have the knowledge of Stu and Zraw pushing me towards my natural limit than someone talking of no limits yet having no idea of how to aid me in getting to my goals.

Take home point is its all dependent on your goals. If you desire to be big with as much muscle as you can squeeze onto your frame you talk to people with an understanding beyond the “eat big” mentality. You talk to people who understand how to gain mass and you stay clear of Sumo Wrestlers

1025

[quote]steven alex wrote:
These threads just go on and on dont they?

I think the best thing to do to sift the wheat from the chaff is simply to know who to listen to depending on your goals.

If your goal is to be huge but very fat then PX is your man.

If however your goals are somewhat different i.e big but LEAN so you can actually SEE the muscles not just argue they are real, then to my mind and for my goals, Stu and Zraw are the people who have walked the walk and know what it would take to get me there and its to them obviously that I would give my ear to.

Very sound post.
What are naturals able to achieve? I really dont know, but I sure as hell would rather have the knowledge of Stu and Zraw pushing me towards my natural limit than someone talking of no limits yet having no idea of how to aid me in getting to my goals.

Take home point is its all dependent on your goals. If you desire to be big with as much muscle as you can squeeze onto your frame you talk to people with an understanding beyond the “eat big” mentality. You talk to people who understand how to gain mass and you stay clear of Sumo Wrestlers[/quote]

1026

Well, I meant to quote steven alex and it just threw my comment in the middle of his post, ha. I’m an internet idiot. Anyways, I really think he hit the nail on the head with much of his post. If I was just looking to get as big as possible, I would listen to X. However, that would most likely end up with me carrying much more fat than I’d like. I know some would argue that it’s all about the means to an end, but I don’t want to look chunky for the next ten years just so I can look big when I’m 37.

I’d rather keep it cleaner than that so I can enjoy looking good in my younger years. I know X says that it’s not about a body fat percentage, but, really, all of the guys that argue in favor of X’s approach are carrying more fat than others would like. There’s no way around that. I just wonder: What is the point of going overboard with bulking just to look pretty big when you are almost 40? At that age, you shouldn’t be so worried about what others think of you anyway.

I mean, damn, X is a full grown-ass man, and still argues with guys half his age about how much muscle he might be carrying. I don’t want to turn into that. I know it’s all about taking advantage of your prime growing years, and I’m doing that…to a point. I just will never agree with X’s patented “EAT BIG GET BIG” approach. Look where it got him: Bigger than a bunch of guys on here, but vastly disproportionate, not as strong as he should be, and carrying more fat than many would like for the past decade or so (Yes, there were some times when X was leaner. Inb4 “I’m leaner now than whenever, and bigger than whenever.” Not to mention how horrible his conditioning has been for the past however many years. The Colorado videos were rough, to say the least (Inb4 “My conditioning has improved since then! That was the whole point of flying me out there!1!!!1”).

1027

Good thing this thread is almost at its limit (uh oh! Not limits again!) because these last two posts are primed to re blow this thread up.

1028

What can I say, Smashing? I’m just such a troublemaker. :wink:

1029

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
If I was just looking to get as big as possible, I would listen to X. However, that would most likely end up with me carrying much more fat than I’d like. [/quote]

So at the risk of being a “PX Nuthugger”, I’ll say this:

PX never said “go get fat”. (That I’m aware of).

The good doctor, while comfortable in his own level of fatness, has to my knowledge never said “go get fat”.

This is what I, as a newb, took from his earlier posts/threads. I always understood it as ‘take it to where you feel comfortable’, the ‘put the brakes on’. I think, IIRC, he said ‘damage control’. No? I mean, if your goal is BB comp or physique oriented and you are not worried about 1RM liftsand you just keep getting fat, then really you’re not really listening to the message. If you want to put on weight fast and you understand that you’re going to smooth out, then the message is eat for the goal.

It’s one way of doing it. Certainly not “The Only” way. Maybe not the best way, or even a good way (for everyone). Just ‘one’ way.

I know I am somewhat retarded and probably one of the least knowledgeable people on these boards, but I swear I’ve never read “Go get fat” from the “Works of PX”.

Now, can we fucking move on now? I really want to talk about biceps or something else besides this damned fat vs lean bullshit.

1030

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
Well, I meant to quote steven alex and it just threw my comment in the middle of his post, ha. I’m an internet idiot. Anyways, I really think he hit the nail on the head with much of his post. If I was just looking to get as big as possible, I would listen to X. However, that would most likely end up with me carrying much more fat than I’d like. I know some would argue that it’s all about the means to an end, but I don’t want to look chunky for the next ten years just so I can look big when I’m 37.

I’d rather keep it cleaner than that so I can enjoy looking good in my younger years. I know X says that it’s not about a body fat percentage, but, really, all of the guys that argue in favor of X’s approach are carrying more fat than others would like. There’s no way around that. I just wonder: What is the point of going overboard with bulking just to look pretty big when you are almost 40? At that age, you shouldn’t be so worried about what others think of you anyway.

I mean, damn, X is a full grown-ass man, and still argues with guys half his age about how much muscle he might be carrying. I don’t want to turn into that. I know it’s all about taking advantage of your prime growing years, and I’m doing that…to a point. I just will never agree with X’s patented “EAT BIG GET BIG” approach. Look where it got him: Bigger than a bunch of guys on here, but vastly disproportionate, not as strong as he should be, and carrying more fat than many would like for the past decade or so (Yes, there were some times when X was leaner. Inb4 “I’m leaner now than whenever, and bigger than whenever.” Not to mention how horrible his conditioning has been for the past however many years. The Colorado videos were rough, to say the least (Inb4 “My conditioning has improved since then! That was the whole point of flying me out there!1!!!1”).[/quote]

I agree about what’s the point of going through all that to look good at 40. But if someone would take a better approach at eat big lift big than X they could grow a proportionate physique (not all hammerstrength machines, actually train lower body with intensity etc) and doing some conditioning, they could be in decent condition and be proportionate.

I know he’s a powerlifter but Stormthebeach is about 280 and better conditioned/more athletic than the vast majority of people, so weighting more doesn’t always = out of shape.

I think if your goals are purely physique related the lift big eat big thing is overrated. As from what I can gather that is what’s being discussed in all the shitstorm threads on here. For those with performance related goals it’s a different story

1031

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
If I was just looking to get as big as possible, I would listen to X. However, that would most likely end up with me carrying much more fat than I’d like. [/quote]

So at the risk of being a “PX Nuthugger”, I’ll say this:

PX never said “go get fat”. (That I’m aware of).

The good doctor, while comfortable in his own level of fatness, has to my knowledge never said “go get fat”.

This is what I, as a newb, took from his earlier posts/threads. I always understood it as ‘take it to where you feel comfortable’, the ‘put the brakes on’. I think, IIRC, he said ‘damage control’. No? I mean, if your goal is BB comp or physique oriented and you are not worried about 1RM liftsand you just keep getting fat, then really you’re not really listening to the message. If you want to put on weight fast and you understand that you’re going to smooth out, then the message is eat for the goal.

It’s one way of doing it. Certainly not “The Only” way. Maybe not the best way, or even a good way (for everyone). Just ‘one’ way.

I know I am somewhat retarded and probably one of the least knowledgeable people on these boards, but I swear I’ve never read “Go get fat” from the “Works of PX”.

Now, can we fucking move on now? I really want to talk about biceps or something else besides this damned fat vs lean bullshit.[/quote]

To be honest the only reason this 3 month shitstorm has happened is because X is representing the “bulk” or “fullhouse” mentality instead of you or someone else. His attitude is what really sparked this.

1032

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
If I was just looking to get as big as possible, I would listen to X. However, that would most likely end up with me carrying much more fat than I’d like. [/quote]

So at the risk of being a “PX Nuthugger”, I’ll say this:

PX never said “go get fat”. (That I’m aware of).

The good doctor, while comfortable in his own level of fatness, has to my knowledge never said “go get fat”.

This is what I, as a newb, took from his earlier posts/threads. I always understood it as ‘take it to where you feel comfortable’, the ‘put the brakes on’. I think, IIRC, he said ‘damage control’. No? I mean, if your goal is BB comp or physique oriented and you are not worried about 1RM liftsand you just keep getting fat, then really you’re not really listening to the message. If you want to put on weight fast and you understand that you’re going to smooth out, then the message is eat for the goal.

It’s one way of doing it. Certainly not “The Only” way. Maybe not the best way, or even a good way (for everyone). Just ‘one’ way.

I know I am somewhat retarded and probably one of the least knowledgeable people on these boards, but I swear I’ve never read “Go get fat” from the “Works of PX”.

Now, can we fucking move on now? I really want to talk about biceps or something else besides this damned fat vs lean bullshit.[/quote]

Your post is sensible and I think you know I think good of you.

However, although X of course never said “get fat” --who would actually say this?–his advice will and has lead quite a few people to get fat.

1033

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
If I was just looking to get as big as possible, I would listen to X. However, that would most likely end up with me carrying much more fat than I’d like. [/quote]

So at the risk of being a “PX Nuthugger”, I’ll say this:

PX never said “go get fat”. (That I’m aware of).

The good doctor, while comfortable in his own level of fatness, has to my knowledge never said “go get fat”.

This is what I, as a newb, took from his earlier posts/threads. I always understood it as ‘take it to where you feel comfortable’, the ‘put the brakes on’. I think, IIRC, he said ‘damage control’. No? I mean, if your goal is BB comp or physique oriented and you are not worried about 1RM liftsand you just keep getting fat, then really you’re not really listening to the message. If you want to put on weight fast and you understand that you’re going to smooth out, then the message is eat for the goal.

It’s one way of doing it. Certainly not “The Only” way. Maybe not the best way, or even a good way (for everyone). Just ‘one’ way.

I know I am somewhat retarded and probably one of the least knowledgeable people on these boards, but I swear I’ve never read “Go get fat” from the “Works of PX”.

Now, can we fucking move on now? I really want to talk about biceps or something else besides this damned fat vs lean bullshit.[/quote]

Your post is sensible and I think you know I think good of you.

However, although X of course never said “get fat” --who would actually say this?–his advice will and has lead quite a few people to get fat.
[/quote]

I can vouch for that. I bought into the whole “gotta hold a heavy weight so my body gets used to moving around at that weight” mentality. In the end, I needed to diet for 10 whole months to get stage ready, and I actually had alot of medical issues at the heavy bodyweight.

1034

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
If I was just looking to get as big as possible, I would listen to X. However, that would most likely end up with me carrying much more fat than I’d like. [/quote]

So at the risk of being a “PX Nuthugger”, I’ll say this:

PX never said “go get fat”. (That I’m aware of).

The good doctor, while comfortable in his own level of fatness, has to my knowledge never said “go get fat”.

This is what I, as a newb, took from his earlier posts/threads. I always understood it as ‘take it to where you feel comfortable’, the ‘put the brakes on’. I think, IIRC, he said ‘damage control’. No? I mean, if your goal is BB comp or physique oriented and you are not worried about 1RM liftsand you just keep getting fat, then really you’re not really listening to the message. If you want to put on weight fast and you understand that you’re going to smooth out, then the message is eat for the goal.

It’s one way of doing it. Certainly not “The Only” way. Maybe not the best way, or even a good way (for everyone). Just ‘one’ way.

I know I am somewhat retarded and probably one of the least knowledgeable people on these boards, but I swear I’ve never read “Go get fat” from the “Works of PX”.

Now, can we fucking move on now? I really want to talk about biceps or something else besides this damned fat vs lean bullshit.[/quote]

Your post is sensible and I think you know I think good of you.

However, although X of course never said “get fat” --who would actually say this?–his advice will and has lead quite a few people to get fat.
[/quote]

Brick - I love you too, brother. <3

Let me ask you this: If someone goes to “bulk”, and they eat, and they get fat, beyond their comfort zone, is that really anyone’s fault but their own?

I’ve been looking back through “T-Cell Alpha” threads (remember that cobwebby place?) and I remember a couple people (JFit maybe? and someone else) tried to ‘bulk up’. Honestly, they failed. Was that really anyone’s fault but their own?

Maybe they ate too much junk (never condoned). Maybe they didn’t work as hard as they think they did (never condoned). Maybe they justified flabby fat and ignored their progress (never condoned).

Ok, let’s talk about me, me, me now :wink:

I’m not lean for sure. However, I’m not ‘flabby’. I know I’ve justified a pizza (or fifty), but for several years, in my late 30’s early 40’s I’ve set some aggressive goals and pretty much hit them knowing I wouldn’t be seeing my abs soon.

I’ve finally just about hit my ‘comfort zone’ and have started taking steps to come down a bit. I’ve used an amalgam (HA!! Dental word) of advice from a lot of different folks-- PX, MauraduerMeat (I miss that guy tremendously), Stu, Coach Thibs, and some others (I could think of worse composite lifters), but I would NEVER blame them for anything I’ve done wrong, although I’d probably credit them for the good their methods provided.

It really does boil down to responsibility. That’s in life AND lifting.

Just my 0.02 centavos.

1035

For the record, Professor X is providing me with free dental care and a waiver for 2 cheeseburgers daily so long as I satisfactorily hang from his scrotum.

1036

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
For the record, Professor X is providing me with free dental care and a waiver for 2 cheeseburgers daily so long as I satisfactorily hang from his scrotum.[/quote]

What kind of cheeseburgers are we talking here? I mean, my dental care is in pretty solid order, so a few cleaning sessions, while nice, isn’t exactly the deal maker. But if these are some serious cheeseburgers, well that changes everything.

1037

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
For the record, Professor X is providing me with free dental care and a waiver for 2 cheeseburgers daily so long as I satisfactorily hang from his scrotum.[/quote]

What kind of cheeseburgers are we talking here? I mean, my dental care is in pretty solid order, so a few cleaning sessions, while nice, isn’t exactly the deal maker. But if these are some serious cheeseburgers, well that changes everything.[/quote]

Well, let me just say that these ain’t no Wimpy cheeseburgers. These are all-out super dense Dickcheese Burgers with “PX Special Sauce”. NO MAYO. BLACK PEOPLE DONT LIKE MAYO DAMMIT!!

1038

I have always said that I respect X’s physique. I have no problem admitting that. However, it’s his attitude that I don’t respect. And, really, one’s attitude is extremely important on a discussion forum where people have to learn to be accommodating to one another. It’s funny, though. When you (SteelyD) say the same things that X has been saying for years, I have no problem agreeing with a great deal of it.

And, it’s really because the only difference between how you and X deliver: respect. You know how to get your message across without being condescending or defensive, and that goes a long, long way. I like a lot of your posts and respect your attitude. I have always said that it is the man over the physique. Meaning, just because you have put in the time to get big, does not give you the right to act ignorant to others. Keep it up with the insightful posts, SteelyD. I like your flow.

1039

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
For the record, Professor X is providing me with free dental care and a waiver for 2 cheeseburgers daily so long as I satisfactorily hang from his scrotum.[/quote]

What kind of cheeseburgers are we talking here? I mean, my dental care is in pretty solid order, so a few cleaning sessions, while nice, isn’t exactly the deal maker. But if these are some serious cheeseburgers, well that changes everything.[/quote]

Well, let me just say that these ain’t no Wimpy cheeseburgers. These are all-out super dense Dickcheese Burgers with “PX Special Sauce”. NO MAYO. BLACK PEOPLE DONT LIKE MAYO DAMMIT!![/quote]
Only eat it when it’s mixed in with the food

1040

When someone repeatedly says “my way worked” and their way included getting up to 300 pounds and 30+% bodyfat how is that not advocating getting excessively fat?
A famous person once said:
“I mean, cu…ccc…cuuuh…ccccome on.”
-Jimmy

But I agree Steely, lets move on.
This topic is busted.