[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
FTR, I in no way degraded or debase X’s college (and much higher level) education.[/quote]
I’m actually still trying to piece together how a few posters got the idea that we were somehow under the impression that undergraduate coursework is as intensive as that found in medical school.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
People don’t need ANY degree to understand ENOUGH about physiology to be a great contest prep coach or trainer.
I have an undergraduate degree in nutrition, registration as dietitian, and a masters degree in nutrition and exercise physiology. I’d know enough to get where I am and have been at physically or to train someone WITHOUT these degrees.
Yeah, it was cool to learn a ton and it trained me for my career positions in clinical and corporate dietetics and foodservice management and it adds to my knowledge for sports nutrition, but for bodybuilding and sports nutrition, one can accrue the needed knowledge from reading books and articles and going to the gym and experience.
Shelby, JM, CT, Stu, Skip, Scott Abel, Chris Aceto, Tom Venuto, Dan Duchaine, and so on - none had or have a medical degree, nor did they or do they need ANY advanced degree to do what they are doing or did. What someone learns in a clinical nutrition, biology, or anatomy course in school has almost nothing to do with real world application in bodybuilding and sports, and this is coming from someone whose majority of coursework dealt with these subjects. [/quote]
Ryan - as I said, I meant no slight at you and I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you professed to know everything. Of your peers, you can pick out those who you would want to be your doc and those who you wouldn’t, quite easily. I would, however, reserve judgment on your attendings. There ARE bad docs in this world, no doubt, but until you’ve accrued the experience the people you reference have, you still have things to learn from them. Remember, despite what you think of them, they have twenty years in the business, and the knowledge to go with it. I don’t mean this in any kind of aggressive way, just offering some friendly advice.
Brick - I never said I think that PX is the best source on this site to go to with bodybuilding in mind, nor did I say you need to have an advanced degree to provide such advice. In fact, I explicitly stated that I would defer things like contest prep to zraw, Stu, JM, and the others you’ve listed. I do take issue, however, with people pretending that because PX hasn’t dieted to contest lean that he doesn’t know anything about training. I was merely stating that due to his background he actually knows more about physiology than most around here, and he has successfully applied those principles to fit his goals.
PX being knowledgable about some topic does not somehow mean that Stu or zraw or others don’t have any experience with different things (or, gasp, the same issue!). The polarizing dogmatic arguments that go down on these forums are largely the reason that I choose not to post, because the answer is ALWAYS somewhere in the middle, despite the vociferous arguments of the belligerents on each side.
And to stay on topic, a friend of mine on Facebook constantly posts about his nutrition and training company using himself as a model. He claims to be a “natural” bodybuilder at 210 lbs, 5’6 tall, and 12% body fat at most. Constantly posts natural this natural that while pimping out his supplements/training methods…right bro, because people believe you have more LBM than Zane while being 3 inches shorter.
[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
I’ve read through a great many of his post and, to be honest, he never really gives any advice that isn’t already easily accessible. His answer to almost every situation is eat more and not worry about fat gain too much when your goal is “really big muscles”. Really? Who doesn’t know that they need to eat more to gain weight?[/quote]
I’d actually be interested in seeing a few quotes of this dental education in action. Nothing too crazy, just a little nugget that is commensurate to a degree supposedly well beyond what most of us can comprehend (e.g., something a little more involved than a dismissive remark about how “biology isn’t that simple” or whatever).
[quote]mezcal wrote:
I do take issue, however, with people pretending that because PX hasn’t dieted to contest lean that he doesn’t know anything about training. I was merely stating that due to his background he actually knows more about physiology than most around here, and he has successfully applied those principles to fit his goals.[/quote]
I’m sorry, doc, but who, specifically, are these multiple people who have said X doesn’t know anything about training because he hasn’t dieted down to contest levels of leanness?
Your faith in X’s knowledge aside, one of my main gripes about this alleged academic advantage (and I’m sure I’m not alone here) is that it is never really demonstrated, only informed.
Genuinely believing that TELLING us you have a “background in genetics” or that you studied nutrition “on a much higher level than college level” or that you “use a scalpel and sutures on a daily basis” is some kind of trump card is completely ridiculous. Nut up and drop knowledge more substantial than a trite “biology isn’t math equation” and let us decide for ourselves.
This is one of the reasons why I never skimmed MODOK’s posts and, incidentally, why people here respected him and his education so much.
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]mezcal wrote:
I do take issue, however, with people pretending that because PX hasn’t dieted to contest lean that he doesn’t know anything about training. I was merely stating that due to his background he actually knows more about physiology than most around here, and he has successfully applied those principles to fit his goals.[/quote]
I’m sorry, doc, but who, specifically, are these multiple people who have said X doesn’t know anything about training because he hasn’t dieted down to contest levels of leanness?
Your faith in X’s knowledge aside, one of my main gripes about this alleged academic advantage (and I’m sure I’m not alone here) is that it is never really demonstrated, only informed.
Genuinely believing that TELLING us you have a “background in genetics” or that you studied nutrition “on a much higher level than college level” or that you “use a scalpel and sutures on a daily basis” is some kind of trump card is completely ridiculous. Nut up and drop knowledge more substantial than a trite “biology isn’t math equation” and let us decide for ourselves.
This is one of the reasons why I never skimmed MODOK’s posts and, incidentally, why people here respected him and his education so much.[/quote]
Oh yeah, MODOK was a good poster.
I’m sure X’s schooling has lead to some knowledge that pertains to this but, like you said, specifics are rarely if ever shared.
Brick has asked X countless times to give the most basic of diet and training outlines or recommendations and always left with some extremely vague non specific answer.
^That’s exactly what I was getting at. X has made some impressive progress throughout his years of training. However, when anyone goes to him asking for training/nutrition advice, he lists off some of the most basic principles that anyone could learn about after a brief run-through of a site like this one.
I guess I just don’t really understand what he has to offer those of us on this site that have moved past the beginner stage. For someone acting like they are in the upper echelon of bodybuilding, he really doesn’t seem to have much knowledge outside of “eat big” and “get big”.
[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
@Brick-What did he say exactly? I’m curious.[/quote]
Nothing, i believe this is what brick was getting at.
Brick asked X what kind of basic nutrition plan and training regime he would set out for a newb. But X did not answer the question. I dont know if he just didnt want to answer the question or if he doesnt actually have a clue on how to train someone else apart from himself.
^Ah, I understand. Yeah, it has always seemed that he thinks his approach should work for anyone. If not “they must not be cut out for this”.
[quote]mezcal wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
People don’t need ANY degree to understand ENOUGH about physiology to be a great contest prep coach or trainer.
I have an undergraduate degree in nutrition, registration as dietitian, and a masters degree in nutrition and exercise physiology. I’d know enough to get where I am and have been at physically or to train someone WITHOUT these degrees.
Yeah, it was cool to learn a ton and it trained me for my career positions in clinical and corporate dietetics and foodservice management and it adds to my knowledge for sports nutrition, but for bodybuilding and sports nutrition, one can accrue the needed knowledge from reading books and articles and going to the gym and experience.
Shelby, JM, CT, Stu, Skip, Scott Abel, Chris Aceto, Tom Venuto, Dan Duchaine, and so on - none had or have a medical degree, nor did they or do they need ANY advanced degree to do what they are doing or did. What someone learns in a clinical nutrition, biology, or anatomy course in school has almost nothing to do with real world application in bodybuilding and sports, and this is coming from someone whose majority of coursework dealt with these subjects. [/quote]
Ryan - as I said, I meant no slight at you and I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you professed to know everything. Of your peers, you can pick out those who you would want to be your doc and those who you wouldn’t, quite easily. I would, however, reserve judgment on your attendings. There ARE bad docs in this world, no doubt, but until you’ve accrued the experience the people you reference have, you still have things to learn from them. Remember, despite what you think of them, they have twenty years in the business, and the knowledge to go with it. I don’t mean this in any kind of aggressive way, just offering some friendly advice.
Brick - I never said I think that PX is the best source on this site to go to with bodybuilding in mind, nor did I say you need to have an advanced degree to provide such advice. In fact, I explicitly stated that I would defer things like contest prep to zraw, Stu, JM, and the others you’ve listed. I do take issue, however, with people pretending that because PX hasn’t dieted to contest lean that he doesn’t know anything about training. I was merely stating that due to his background he actually knows more about physiology than most around here, and he has successfully applied those principles to fit his goals.
PX being knowledgable about some topic does not somehow mean that Stu or zraw or others don’t have any experience with different things (or, gasp, the same issue!). The polarizing dogmatic arguments that go down on these forums are largely the reason that I choose not to post, because the answer is ALWAYS somewhere in the middle, despite the vociferous arguments of the belligerents on each side.
And to stay on topic, a friend of mine on Facebook constantly posts about his nutrition and training company using himself as a model. He claims to be a “natural” bodybuilder at 210 lbs, 5’6 tall, and 12% body fat at most. Constantly posts natural this natural that while pimping out his supplements/training methods…right bro, because people believe you have more LBM than Zane while being 3 inches shorter.[/quote]
Can you drop a picture on us of your fb friend?
The only question remaining is why do we still feed this troll?
Remember, this has been going on for YEARS!
He basically only posts to get a rise out of somebody.
Since he plays the long game, he can be sure that there will always be someone to engage him.
In the end, whenever someone engages him, everyone loses except X.
[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
^Ah, I understand. Yeah, it has always seemed that he thinks his approach should work for anyone. If not “they must not be cut out for this”.[/quote]
He didn’t even state ANY approach for noobs.
What to do with a noob for nutrition? X said he’d ask him what his views on food are. That’s it.
Training? X said, “I’d tell him to get in the gym.” That’s it.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
^Ah, I understand. Yeah, it has always seemed that he thinks his approach should work for anyone. If not “they must not be cut out for this”.[/quote]
He didn’t even state ANY approach for noobs.
What to do with a noob for nutrition? X said he’d ask him what his views on food are. That’s it.
Training? X said, “I’d tell him to get in the gym.” That’s it. [/quote]
lmao
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
^Ah, I understand. Yeah, it has always seemed that he thinks his approach should work for anyone. If not “they must not be cut out for this”.[/quote]
He didn’t even state ANY approach for noobs.
What to do with a noob for nutrition? X said he’d ask him what his views on food are. That’s it.
Training? X said, “I’d tell him to get in the gym.” That’s it. [/quote]
Coupled that with some weak qualifier like
how can I tell him exactly what to eat when I don’t even know how his body responds to food?
This doesn’t even take into account what he is already doing?
What about his current progress, that needs to be factored in.
The human body is way more complex than this, that is why giving specific numbers is useless.
Anyway, it’s obvious that X is trolling and I stand by my statement that he is under the direction or has the approval of the higher ups to do so.
Gotta keep the click counts up and keep these threads at the top if google searches.
SEO basics.
Couple more arguments and X will be getting his free box of supps for maxing out another thread.
Keep Calm and Troll On
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Using more drugs is pretty much all there is to it along with changes in what the bodybuilding ideal is.
[/quote]
Let me take a moment of reflection and apologize to anyone who’s feelings I may have hurt.
I know now what has influenced my behavior and wish all of you to agree it isn’t my fault that I believe what I type. http://gma.yahoo.com/video/lay-dying-singer-blames-steroids-125445134.html
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Aren’t they 2 years or so old though?[/quote]
Why would I need current pics to see what I built when I already did that over several years?
[/quote]
This can’t be serious.
Ease up on the trolling[/quote]
Did you miss that I ALWAYS have current pics in my avatar?
If you are just checking to see if I am making progress, look there.[/quote]
Not picking on you, I’m a fan, just wanted to say hey.
Maybe he has friend access, just pointing out…
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
In the end, whenever someone engages him, everyone loses except X.[/quote]
I suppose that’s because ultimately no-one else really gives a fuck LOL
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Anyway, it’s obvious that X is trolling and I stand by my statement that he is under the direction or has the approval of the higher ups to do so.
Gotta keep the click counts up and keep these threads at the top if google searches.
SEO basics.
Couple more arguments and X will be getting his free box of supps for maxing out another thread.
Keep Calm and Troll On[/quote]
I think it goes deeper than this. I have a suspicion that PX doesn’t write all his posts. I think there is a Team X who take it in turns to stay online and dream up responses. How else would you explain his incredible FIFTY THOUSAND POSTS!?
[quote]steven alex wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Anyway, it’s obvious that X is trolling and I stand by my statement that he is under the direction or has the approval of the higher ups to do so.
Gotta keep the click counts up and keep these threads at the top if google searches.
SEO basics.
Couple more arguments and X will be getting his free box of supps for maxing out another thread.
Keep Calm and Troll On[/quote]
I think it goes deeper than this. I have a suspicion that PX doesn’t write all his posts. I think their is a Team X who take it in turns to stay online and dream up responses. How else would you explain his incredible FIFTY THOUSAND POSTS!?[/quote]
Like gh15?
Interesting theory.
[quote]mezcal wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]gswork wrote:
Isn’t all this college stuff a semantic mux up, should have said undergraduate and postgraduate
Both achievable by naturals btw, bringing us back on track… yay![/quote]
Sort of but not totally.
I stated, as someone who has taken more than one college nutrition class, that saying you took nutrition classes in college doesn’t mean anything because what they teach is so back asswards when it comes to what we know as weightlifters.
I.E. fats are bad! Don’t eat more than 1g of protein per pound or your kidneys will shut down!
That sort of thing.
I said that taking those classes in no way makes you an expert as most here know because I’m guessing almost all of us who went to college took those classes and know how BS they are.
Getting a degree as a Nutrionist/RD is obviously different because you go WAY more into it and that is their “craft.”
Then the good doctor(or surgeon. We still haven’t cleared that up yet) said he studied nutrition at a much higher level way past college.
That brought up the question of “what is a much higher level way past college?”
Does that make sense?[/quote]
A “much higher level way past college” means graduate school, be it medical, dental, or science-related doctoral programs. While these degrees are awarded by colleges, to make the claim that coursework from such programs is in any way equivalent to undergraduate coursework is laughable.
Medical and dental schools put their students through graduate level anatomy, biochemistry, nutrition, and physiology courses that far eclipse in their depth AND breadth anything an undergraduate would learn. There is a reason medical school is considered difficult, and it’s because its rigorous coursework is not completable by all.
As an MD, I respect what X has to say, because the guy has the best of both worlds: he has the medical level coursework training, as well as a hell of a lot of progress in the gym. He has a perspective on the physiology of the human body that, quite frankly, very few others on this site have. Unless you have graduated from medical or dental school, you simply haven’t the foggiest idea of what those accomplishments take, or the knowledge imparted on you by graduation.
Does X have the physique of a bodybuilder? No. Can he be crass and obnoxious? Sure! But I would be too if I had five different people denigrating me in various ways on every post I made, be it mocking his profession, physique, or in this case, even education. The point is that if you want bodybuilding information, go ahead and ask Stu or zraw, as they clearly have been very successful in that regard, however, if you want the opinion of someone with intimate understanding of human physiology as it pertains to muscle building, give me the guy with the medical degree who is also 250+ pounds. That’s not to say that those with undergraduate nutrition or kinesiology degrees don’t know anything about physiology (because that would be stupid), but rather, until anyone else has completed the coursework at such a medical level, why would you assume to know more?
And to answer your other question, a DDS or DMD (dental degree) has the ability to do post-graduate residency training in oral maxillofacial surgery, endodontics, orthodontics, etc. Any of these could be considered an oral surgeon, and once the training is completed, the candidate becomes a fully licensed, independent practitioner of whatever craft they’ve chosen.
Carry on.[/quote]
Best post on the internet.
I will save this to repost when this same topic resurfaces.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I know they cover more than the mouth but it will not be on the level of a many other PhDs (obv depending on field) and oharmach students.[/quote]
Yeah, this would be false. No average PhD is dissecting the human body for their degree nor do they match the med school students in all basic studies.
[quote]
It’s like an upper level phys course from undergrad. You will know much more than the general population but little compared to many others. Again just my opinion.
I wasn’t just commenting in docs and muscular ppl. Just docs in general.
I think it’s funny you think I am talking myself up and feel like know a shit ton. I feel 100% inadequate I realize I don’t know jack shit. But I still can pick out terrible doctors and ppl in my class and the class above me that are just plain stupid. And you also pointed out what I hate the most about first year half of the basic science shit we learn means nothing for real world practice. Just because someone is a doctor does not mean they get my respect they have to earn it just like everyone else. [/quote]
?? But you haven’t earned a degree yet.