You ever see American Horror Story edgy? Kate Mara (the mistress) ended up getting the dude’s entire family killed cuz she fell in love and got pregnant and went batshit crazy. And she’s the reason they had to move into the evil anti-christ house in the first place.
So… Watch out for something like that.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Bottom line to the original question? The Golden Rule. [/quote]
thank you Sensei Push, this golden rule does transcend religion, i approve.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
It is the primary relationship in our lives.
[/quote]
at risk of starting an argument, how can this statement be tru when a majority of marriages end in divorce?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Would you want her to sit down and talk to you about it if the roles were reversed? I’m betting you would.
[/quote]
i am not so sure that i would, given the expected mores in a marriage, i would think that if there was something going on the side, i would be pleased to be in the dark - discretion above all things.
at least that is where my head is these days (pun intended)
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
It’s not complicated. Cheating is sexual in nature and a direct violation of the sanctity of the relationship in the most intimate way. The most intimate way. Once that line is crossed, it’s permanent.
Self destructive behavior or destructive friendships may damage relationships but they don’t attack the very nature of the relationship itself. They erode the relationship over time but corrective action can save the one where it may not save the other.
There is destroying a relationship from the outside, in and then their is nuking it instantly with one big blast. An extra-sexual relationship is a killer for most. It’s possible to make it through, people do it, but it takes a lot from both parties to make it work.
There is no such thing as an ‘open relationship’, those are two people who are going to be divorced, or they don’t care about each other and the relationship is only a mutually beneficial thing…for a time.[/quote]
but it is complicated.
we are not discussing a total breakdown of the relationship, just an outsourcing, if you will, of the sexual part.
intimacy is more than sex, sex is recreational, it is not ethereal.
how can you make the claim that there is no such thing as an open relationship? how can you make that assertion? it sounds like you consider this as a disgusting chain of events that is the result of a destructive personality, and what you are not considering is the relationship building that it can create.
srsly, i am surprised at you taking this position. judgmental and pious. totally not what i would expect.
sanctity of the relationship… the marriage is sacred? or is it a legal agreement made within the confines of the county in which the license is procured?
[/quote]
No it’s not, unless you make it complicated by bringing in a bunch of hoo-haa to justify incorrect behavior. And it sounds to me like you are trying to justify something.
If you want casual sex, then you are giving up on a committed relationship. If your goal is to mow down as many women as possible and you have willing participants, go nuts. But if you are committed to a single relationship, then you have to give up the other. You cannot have both.
And sex ALWAYS means something to at least one of the parties involved; it’s flat bullshit to say otherwise. And that is precisely why it damages most relationships beyond repair.
The way people treat things and the way things are, are two different things. Most people want to do what they do and will do or say anything to justify it. And if they cannot find something, then they will make something up.
Open relationships? Look at them over the long term. I have NEVER, EVER, EVER heard of a single case where that relationship lasted. I am sure there is an anomaly somewhere, but they are doomed to failure or they are a failure from the start.
It’s simple. It really is. There is no reason to over complicate things. Understand them and accept them for what they are.
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
However, I’m not talking about intimacy between male friends. We’re talking about intimacy as it pertains to marriage; and no, I cannot have intimacy (in the common parlance sense of the word) in my marriage without an adequate amount and quality of sex. My wife essentially morphs into my business partner when our sex life slips
[/quote]
good post, Steelie~
i attempted to boldface the business partner line, once crossed, it is difficult to impossible to gain back the marriage intimacy unless forced in a corner - putting the family through the emotional entanglements of this is distasteful - in my opinion
[quote]orion wrote:
What is cheating?
I dont know.
I ye olden days apparently boy met girl, they fooled around a bit, then got married, kids, died.
It does not work like that anymore, there are emotional tampons that are used for intimacy and commitment but get no sex, there are sluts that get sex but no commitment…
It seems to to me that in a sexual marketplace that is utterly broken people who do not give a shit about other peoples feelings or never even consider that they might have feelings fare the best.
I hate “he who cares least wins” with a passion, but its true.
Now even if you had a contract in writing what is and is not permissible, who will hold the utter party accountable?
Again a case where the party that fires the first shot is the one that benefits.
People that still hold some mushy ideas about social conventions really only come in two varieties:
Naive or trying to control others. [/quote]
tl;dr - however, i am so glad that you made the comment, O~
[quote]TenashusReslushn wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]TenashusReslushn wrote:
Your actions affect the we.
[/quote]
Ok Edgy… I put some time into my response after I erased the first scathing one.
First off I tell people to stay married! Yeah, that’s right me, the divorcee!
Secondly, I tell people to talk it out no matter what, who, or where. Fight if you have to, to come to a compromise, especially if you care deeply about the subject.
Then I learned to take a step back from my own wants and look though someone else’s eyes even if I disagree. This is where the “WE” comes to play.
Harder yet find a way to cool the temperature of the conversation when emotions run high. My current partner is a studly champion at this. He hugs me and tells me he loves me when we are fighting.
An affair will always be found out. Hiding, deceit, betrayal – these are the means to an end. If you are all hell bent on having one of these, what did you call it, “out sourcing?” you will ultimately cause all of the things to your family you wish to avoid with one other consequence – humiliation.
In my humble opinion, anyway~
[/quote]
the humiliation thing… that is a bad result, but it is not guaranteed, and once the outsourced relationship is brought to light, does not the attitude surrounding it help to determine the outcome?
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
A man’s word is all he has.[/quote]
never has a truer word been spoken~
thanks C~[/quote]
What if he’s mute? I guess, if he’s using sign language, he can’t cross his fingers behind his back.[/quote]
okay, i LOL’d at this one,
[quote]Chushin wrote:
My dearest, bestest, most awesomest friend Edgy.
I can’t tell if you are serious with this or not.
See, I know you are smart enough to know that it’s only “outsourcing” when there are absolutely no feelings involved. And I guess paying for it is a fairly (though not completely) safe way to get that. But I don’t think a monetary transaction is what you have in mind.
Your attempts to make sex with another woman a purely physical act might work for a while, but sooner or later you are going to get snagged on one of those “outsourcing employees.” It’s just the way that humans are built.
Put another way, yeah, sure, what you say is true in some ways, but it’s the equivalent of rolling the dice with your marriage.
And, of course, no matter how “innocuous” you view such “outsourcing,” what your partner thinks about it is also a very significant consideration.
But I think you know all this.
So, my guess is that your rationalizing here because of your desires.
I hope that you don’t make any ill-conceived decisions, my friend.
PS: Trust me; I’m a Level 100.[/quote]
first off, how the hell did you get to level 100?
secondly, after 23 years of marriage, and deeply engrossed in the voluminous ‘Story of Civilization’, i have questions as to the mores of society today.
reading through the first 4000 years of civilization, i have found that politics and religion remain the same in that they are controlling influences that permeate our very being, the only thing that has changed since the advent of christianity is our sexual mores - i am not convinced that this is not something that needs to be revisited.
thank you for referring to me as smart - remember, i lift heavy things for no reason.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
Little Edgie
[/quote]
What’s with this smack you’re running on me?[/quote]
just referring to your Avi - not the size of your manhood, my freind~
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Edgy, I’ve been on both sides of the dilemma you face. Have been in a near-sexless marriage that I valued for many reasons, and I have been cheated upon. I have never cheated myself.
During my marriage I thought about going outside of it for a fling, because I didn’t want to live the rest of my life without any sex and it had come to that point in the marriage. It was easy for me to justify it because the husband I would be cheating on had cheated on me, at least a couple of times (one distant past that I found out about when I told a friend that I’d found viagra in his travel bag).
Several things stopped me. One was the fear of having everything I cared about come crashing down if I accidentally fell in love. The other was that, setting aside my own moral issues with it, I couldn’t see wanting a man who would want me under those conditions.
I don’t know what to tell you except, talk to her. Tell her where you are, what you’re thinking. Shit, maybe she’d welcome you looking elsewhere, who knows. I think some women are relieved. I know my ex was happy not to have the pressure of my desire for intimacy, fidelity, and fiscal responsibility when we finally separated. Maybe he would have welcomed my taking a lover. (He actually wanted to bring another man in for a 3-way, but that’s revolting to me.) (I wonder sometimes if he’s going to someday come out as gay.) (But whatever. Not my problem now.) (lol)
[/quote]
thanks EmmieDear, but you mentioned that even talking with your ex-SO resulted in divorce.
after 23 years of marriage, and being engrossed in both sides of the family, with kids and future retirement looming, is now the time to split the sheets? or is it time to revisit an historically acceptable practice?
srsly, which has the acceptable outcome in your opinion?
compromising familial realationships, in addition to abandonment both financially and emotionally for all involved, or outsourcing?
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
the question is whether or not the mores should line up with what is either acceptable, or should be acceptable - so , no i have not discussed this with Mrs Edgy, this is a thought that has been bouncing around in my head for some time, and i would like your input on it~
srsly~[/quote]
I basically agree with the gist of what many others are saying. It boils down to being in agreement with your SO about what’s acceptable and what’s not. (With a disclaimer for rationality. If my wife told me it’s being unfaithful to even look at another chick, she would be out of luck on that one)
I think people need to be very careful when venturing outside their marriage even with permission. A guy might get some on the side with full consent of his wife, have no emotional attachment and not spend any family resources in the process. He might also bring home an STD or get the other girl pregnant. The guy might not get emotionally attached but the other girl might. The wife might have thought she wouldn’t get jealous but does. Friends, family, neighbors or coworkers might find out about it. It’s a huge can of worms with close to zero upside for a committed relationship. Never the less, if my wife gave me the green light I’d totally bang some hottie if I had the chance.[/quote]
'sacktly - you and your SO are in agreement, and emotions run high, and stupid batshit-crazy actions result in dissolution.
or-
discretion at 2nd or 3rd relationships and continuing the familial?
you make the call~
[quote]csulli wrote:
You ever see American Horror Story edgy? Kate Mara (the mistress) ended up getting the dude’s entire family killed cuz she fell in love and got pregnant and went batshit crazy. And she’s the reason they had to move into the evil anti-christ house in the first place.
So… Watch out for something like that.[/quote]
yeah - there is the whole ‘boiling the family rabbit’ thing to consider…
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
You ever see American Horror Story edgy? Kate Mara (the mistress) ended up getting the dude’s entire family killed cuz she fell in love and got pregnant and went batshit crazy. And she’s the reason they had to move into the evil anti-christ house in the first place.
So… Watch out for something like that.[/quote]
yeah - there is the whole ‘boiling the family rabbit’ thing to consider…[/quote]
I think you are not familiar with Kate Mara.
Should I wake up next to that I would sacrifice a lily white lamb myself and the smoke would rise and please the gods.
Plus, women who at least attempt to cook are rare.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Edgy, I’ve been on both sides of the dilemma you face. Have been in a near-sexless marriage that I valued for many reasons, and I have been cheated upon. I have never cheated myself.
During my marriage I thought about going outside of it for a fling, because I didn’t want to live the rest of my life without any sex and it had come to that point in the marriage. It was easy for me to justify it because the husband I would be cheating on had cheated on me, at least a couple of times (one distant past that I found out about when I told a friend that I’d found viagra in his travel bag).
Several things stopped me. One was the fear of having everything I cared about come crashing down if I accidentally fell in love. The other was that, setting aside my own moral issues with it, I couldn’t see wanting a man who would want me under those conditions.
I don’t know what to tell you except, talk to her. Tell her where you are, what you’re thinking. Shit, maybe she’d welcome you looking elsewhere, who knows. I think some women are relieved. I know my ex was happy not to have the pressure of my desire for intimacy, fidelity, and fiscal responsibility when we finally separated. Maybe he would have welcomed my taking a lover. (He actually wanted to bring another man in for a 3-way, but that’s revolting to me.) (I wonder sometimes if he’s going to someday come out as gay.) (But whatever. Not my problem now.) (lol)
[/quote]
Damn, you’re damaged goods… JK!
I am sorry this happened to you. I know that people sometimes think people bring it on themselves, but that’s really not the case. These are things that happen to you, they don’t define you and don’t let them.
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Edgy, I’ve been on both sides of the dilemma you face. Have been in a near-sexless marriage that I valued for many reasons, and I have been cheated upon. I have never cheated myself.
During my marriage I thought about going outside of it for a fling, because I didn’t want to live the rest of my life without any sex and it had come to that point in the marriage. It was easy for me to justify it because the husband I would be cheating on had cheated on me, at least a couple of times (one distant past that I found out about when I told a friend that I’d found viagra in his travel bag).
Several things stopped me. One was the fear of having everything I cared about come crashing down if I accidentally fell in love. The other was that, setting aside my own moral issues with it, I couldn’t see wanting a man who would want me under those conditions.
I don’t know what to tell you except, talk to her. Tell her where you are, what you’re thinking. Shit, maybe she’d welcome you looking elsewhere, who knows. I think some women are relieved. I know my ex was happy not to have the pressure of my desire for intimacy, fidelity, and fiscal responsibility when we finally separated. Maybe he would have welcomed my taking a lover. (He actually wanted to bring another man in for a 3-way, but that’s revolting to me.) (I wonder sometimes if he’s going to someday come out as gay.) (But whatever. Not my problem now.) (lol)
[/quote]
thanks EmmieDear, but you mentioned that even talking with your ex-SO resulted in divorce.
after 23 years of marriage, and being engrossed in both sides of the family, with kids and future retirement looming, is now the time to split the sheets? or is it time to revisit an historically acceptable practice?
srsly, which has the acceptable outcome in your opinion?
compromising familial realationships, in addition to abandonment both financially and emotionally for all involved, or outsourcing?
[/quote]
It sounds to me like it’s time to save your marriage before you do something stupid. Oh it looks greener over yonder, but it’s not, and you will pay for it for the rest of your life. Is that the price you’re willing to pay for a few seconds of ‘ooo-lala’?
Do the hard thing. Get marriage counseling. If it doesn’t work then, well you have done everything you could. That makes difference, if you run out now you risk everything.
Don’t hurt your family for yourself, you don’t understand the depth of the damage if you remotely think it’s a good idea. Everybody loses, especially the kids no matter the age.
I sense great darkness here.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
This very thread has inspired communication between my lady and me. We are presently talking about the very things you are asking about and others are commenting on. If we can do it…you can too.
[/quote]
awesome… my work here is done~
can a sexual relationship outside of marriage, actually strengthen the marriage?
has anyone seen the B movie, Nina Takes a Lover?
interesting study on married relationships~
[quote]orion wrote:
I think you are not familiar with Kate Mara.
Should I wake up next to that I would sacrifice a lily white lamb myself and the smoke would rise and please the gods.
Plus, women who at least attempt to cook are rare. [/quote]
You and me both.