What Happened to Trial and Error?

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote]belligerent wrote:

[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
No, i refuse to accept what you say in the slightest. “Limitations” are simply a mental prison. If genetic limitations were true, then Pro bodybuilders would not be able to reach their size. Now ill say that there can be factors that minimize growth, but to say that with everything working properly and efficiently one can only reach a point is fail.

These limits that you speak of are moreso A. A lack of proper rest and nutrition B. THe lifter’s inability to foresee when an increase for these are necessary C. The need for Time off D. Adaptation, And more.

Lol facts of reality. You Go tell the thousands of 300lb bodybuilders that they simply cant be that big, since they are breaking the chains of limitations. Or what about the 500-1000lb HUMANS that exist in this world? You’re telling me that getting that fat is within the limits of a human? Because its fat, its allowed? Come on man. [/quote]

So to paraphrase: you intend to set your mind free of limitations by refusing to study and learn about the genetic influences on bodybuilding potential, and by deliberately blocking out this knowledge, you hope that the laws of nature will magically cease to operate on you. After all, if Ronnie Coleman can get to 305 pounds in contest shape, anyone can, right?
[/quote]

Tell that to the handicapped who were told theyd never walk again, but somehow, through apparently some cosmic magic as you call it, walked. The countless many who were told theyd never do something, from someone like you, and then miraculously did. Every aspect of life was thought to be a limit at one point or another. Yet Man continues to grow, and evolve. YOU however, fall in with the “Nu uh” crowd. You strike me as one of those obese vegans who claims scientific proof that their lifestyle is the healthiest lifestyle.

“The mind is the limit. As long as the mind can envision
the fact that you can do something, You can do it as
long as you really believe a 100 percent.”

  • Arnold Schwarzenegger

Your limitations and expectations are based on what YOU perceive is possible for yourself. What the mind dwells upon, the body acts upon. But please, im done here. I will not be moved from my point, nor you from yours. So it ends here.

82

Most people in this thread are saying that you can’t be sure of your genetic potential until you’ve put in years, possibly decades of training. But you’re taking this one step further, denying the existence of genetic limitations altoghether. Anyone who fails to attain pro size just didn’t want it badly enough, according to you. A quote from Arnold proves it. Because Arnold didn’t have good genetics or anything. And if only those jackass doctors were’t telling quadriplegics that they’ll never walk again, those spinal cords would heal themselves, god dammit! Being committed to reality is for negative people like me. People with good attitudes make up their own laws of biology as they go along. Reality as we know it is only a mental contract, and like L. Ron Hubbard said, true is whatever is true for you. Case closed.

83

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Biggest thing I take issue with there is you saying that within a few years it becomes obvious what someone’s genetic limitations are. That’s just silly. [/quote]

Don’t you think within three or four years of dedicated training you would have an idea as to whether your genetics are favorable or not?[/quote]

3-4 year of one person’s “dedicated” training, to another person is 3-4 years of hitting gym occasionally and “trying to eat good”.

You WILL get some notion of the things you’re naturally good/not as good at, but even then, 3-4 years is NOT a long time by any means. In a decade, I plan to be totally unrecognizable as compared to how I look now. I intend to weigh 50-70 lbs more than I do now, and NOT fat. I’ll be damned if anybody and their “genetic predisposition” arguments stop me or slow me down.

The fact is, WE DON’T KNOW how to decode from DNA exactly what is possible for somebody in the muscle-building realm, so to pretend we do is inane. There are simply too many variables to even be bothered with guessing what someone “may be able to” achieve in their lifetime.

Therefore, all it will do to place arbitrary limitations on ourselves is give us a negative attitude, which can, in fact, have a physical effect on progress. So it could be argued that the only thing worrying about genetic limitations will do for a person is damage their gains. What’s the point then?

84

yes. Or maybe their goal was never to be that size? No one said that everyone has to be heavyweight size but thats why there are different weight classes. So you can be “pro sized” and come in at 200lbs or less.

.greg.

85

[quote]belligerent wrote:
And if only those jackass doctors were’t telling quadriplegics that they’ll never walk again, those spinal cords would heal themselves, god dammit! Being committed to reality is for negative people like me. People with good attitudes make up their own laws of biology as they go along. Reality as we know it is only a mental contract, and like L. Ron Hubbard said, true is whatever is true for you. Case closed. [/quote]

using that as your argument (even in a sarcastic manner) just lost your argument all credibility in my book… You cant keep a level head and have an adult dicussion.

Do you have any pictures of your current physique?
(I doubt you’ll put them up but I know anyone posting in this thread who has an opinion on this subject that is contrary to yours would put one up right away)

86

[quote]belligerent wrote:
like L. Ron Hubbard said, true is whatever is true for you. Case closed. [/quote]

L.Ron Hubbard never produced any successful people (his most successful ‘disciples’ were already successful…on the surface). I’ll leave that particular discussion where it is for another day. Needless to say, Hubbard didn’t produce any successful bodybuilders, but he made a lot of money by influencing a lot of influential people. Make of that what you will, but genetic limitations shouldn’t matter to anyone who is going to hit the gym anyway.

In the end, attitude and intent are more important than genetics.

87

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Biggest thing I take issue with there is you saying that within a few years it becomes obvious what someone’s genetic limitations are. That’s just silly. [/quote]

Don’t you think within three or four years of dedicated training you would have an idea as to whether your genetics are favorable or not?[/quote]

3-4 year of one person’s “dedicated” training, to another person is 3-4 years of hitting gym occasionally and “trying to eat good”.

You WILL get some notion of the things you’re naturally good/not as good at, but even then, 3-4 years is NOT a long time by any means. In a decade, I plan to be totally unrecognizable as compared to how I look now. I intend to weigh 50-70 lbs more than I do now, and NOT fat. I’ll be damned if anybody and their “genetic predisposition” arguments stop me or slow me down.

The fact is, WE DON’T KNOW how to decode from DNA exactly what is possible for somebody in the muscle-building realm, so to pretend we do is inane. There are simply too many variables to even be bothered with guessing what someone “may be able to” achieve in their lifetime.

Therefore, all it will do to place arbitrary limitations on ourselves is give us a negative attitude, which can, in fact, have a physical effect on progress. So it could be argued that the only thing worrying about genetic limitations will do for a person is damage their gains. What’s the point then?[/quote]

What the hell? Look, if you have been lifting weights seriously on a regular basis for 4 fucking years and you don’t stand out at all in a crowd of other gym goers, you do NOT have the genetics for this. In fact, if you are basing this on some lame comparison of people who aren’t serious at all and people who are, then you miss the point to start with.

This is a bodybuilding forum. We don’t give a shit about people who aren’t serious. They are NEVER the topic of discussion when we are talking about making gains.

88

[quote]Professor X wrote:

What the hell? Look, if you have been lifting weights seriously on a regular basis for 4 fucking years and you don’t stand out at all in a crowd of other gym goers, you do NOT have the genetics for this. In fact, if you are basing this on some lame comparison of people who aren’t serious at all and people who are, then you miss the point to start with.

This is a bodybuilding forum. We don’t give a shit about people who aren’t serious. They are NEVER the topic of discussion when we are talking about making gains.[/quote]

I think the vast majority of people would stand out in a crowd of gym goers if they put SERIOUS effort into lifting and eating right for 4 consecutive years. Obviously the people that have come farther in that theoretical timeframe of hard training will generally continue to make better gains in the future, and have a better shot at pro BBing.

Pretty sure you’re focusing on the wrong aspect of this debate X…I never said everyone could be a pro bodybuilder in any weight class they want to, and win. My issue is with people who blame their genetics on everything, instead of figuring what they can do to keep improving themselves. I didn’t say genetics don’t make a difference. That would be stupid.

89

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
3-4 year of one person’s “dedicated” training, to another person is 3-4 years of hitting gym occasionally and “trying to eat good”. [/quote]

I meant optimal training and optimal nutrition, interpret that as you see fit

Essentially, I think that most of the posters in this thread agree. SOME genetic limitations do exist, but it is impossible to know what those might be for all but the most advanced lifters.

That being said, setting your goals as if NO limitations exist will take you further than accepting some arbitrary “limit” on what you think your body is capable of…and you will likely be surprised at how far you can take it.

90

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
3-4 year of one person’s “dedicated” training, to another person is 3-4 years of hitting gym occasionally and “trying to eat good”. [/quote]

I meant optimal training and optimal nutrition, interpret that as you see fit

Essentially, I think that most of the posters in this thread agree. SOME genetic limitations do exist, but it is impossible to know what those might be for all but the most advanced lifters.

That being said, setting your goals as if NO limitations exist will take you further than accepting some arbitrary “limit” on what you think your body is capable of…and you will likely be surprised at how far you can take it.[/quote]

I got what you were asking, but you gotta remember we live in the real world. We’ll have 2 guys on T-Nation telling us that they bust their asses, eat until they’re stuffed every day, etc…but one of them might be grossly miscalculating his food intake, his workout intensity, his squat depth, etc, and be misled to believe he’s simply genetically doomed when he sees the other guy’s progress, yknow what I mean?

Agreed with the rest of your post. It isn’t that genetic limitations don’t exist, it’s that we don’t know just what they are, so why limit ourselves mentally?

91

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

What the hell? Look, if you have been lifting weights seriously on a regular basis for 4 fucking years and you don’t stand out at all in a crowd of other gym goers, you do NOT have the genetics for this. In fact, if you are basing this on some lame comparison of people who aren’t serious at all and people who are, then you miss the point to start with.

This is a bodybuilding forum. We don’t give a shit about people who aren’t serious. They are NEVER the topic of discussion when we are talking about making gains.[/quote]

I think the vast majority of people would stand out in a crowd of gym goers if they put SERIOUS effort into lifting and eating right for 4 consecutive years. Obviously the people that have come farther in that theoretical timeframe of hard training will generally continue to make better gains in the future, and have a better shot at pro BBing.

Pretty sure you’re focusing on the wrong aspect of this debate X…I never said everyone could be a pro bodybuilder in any weight class they want to, and win. My issue is with people who blame their genetics on everything, instead of figuring what they can do to keep improving themselves. I didn’t say genetics don’t make a difference. That would be stupid. [/quote]

I’m not focused on the wrong part. Yes, some of these people allow some perceived limit to hold sway on what they think they can do…largely before they ever set one foot out the door. Whether we blame the internet or not, this seems to be some widely growing trend where people log onto internet forums before they ever set foot in a gym to ask random questions about how much they can gain in one month…as if the answer to that question is what will decide whether they ever actually start training.

I don’t give a shit about any of those dumbfucks.

What is worse than those guys…are all of those people who act like they have forever to make progress…or that they can make a 50lbs gain next year…even though they aren’t gaining shit right now and never have.

That is why I focused on your comment.

There should never be a point where one of us half asses our way through four whole initial years in the gym…before finally deciding to eat more food or lift more weight.

Therefore, no, if you have the genetics for this, you will not have to wait 10 fucking years to know it. Those with the genes for this are the guys benching 400+lbs drug free in 5 years. They are the guys walking around with 18" lean arms after only lifting 2-4 years…or the ones squatting a buik for reps. They are NOT the guys who fuck around for a half decade looking completely average the whole time before they decide to work.

92

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Not everyone could be a pro bodybuilder in any weight class they want to, and win. My issue is with people who blame their genetics on everything, instead of figuring what they can do to keep improving themselves. I didn’t say genetics don’t make a difference. That would be stupid. [/quote]

sorry for the doublepost, but this right here is exactly how i feel

/discussion

93

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

What the hell? Look, if you have been lifting weights seriously on a regular basis for 4 fucking years and you don’t stand out at all in a crowd of other gym goers, you do NOT have the genetics for this. In fact, if you are basing this on some lame comparison of people who aren’t serious at all and people who are, then you miss the point to start with.

This is a bodybuilding forum. We don’t give a shit about people who aren’t serious. They are NEVER the topic of discussion when we are talking about making gains.[/quote]

I think the vast majority of people would stand out in a crowd of gym goers if they put SERIOUS effort into lifting and eating right for 4 consecutive years. Obviously the people that have come farther in that theoretical timeframe of hard training will generally continue to make better gains in the future, and have a better shot at pro BBing.

Pretty sure you’re focusing on the wrong aspect of this debate X…I never said everyone could be a pro bodybuilder in any weight class they want to, and win. My issue is with people who blame their genetics on everything, instead of figuring what they can do to keep improving themselves. I didn’t say genetics don’t make a difference. That would be stupid. [/quote]

I’m not focused on the wrong part. Yes, some of these people allow some perceived limit to hold sway on what they think they can do…largely before they ever set one foot out the door. Whether we blame the internet or not, this seems to be some widely growing trend where people log onto internet forums before they ever set foot in a gym to ask random questions about how much they can gain in one month…as if the answer to that question is what will decide whether they ever actually start training.

I don’t give a shit about any of those dumbfucks.

What is worse than those guys…are all of those people who act like they have forever to make progress…or that they can make a 50lbs gain next year…even though they aren’t gaining shit right now and never have.

That is why I focused on your comment.

There should never be a point where one of us half asses our way through four whole initial years in the gym…before finally deciding to eat more food or lift more weight.

Therefore, no, if you have the genetics for this, you will not have to wait 10 fucking years to know it. Those with the genes for this are the guys benching 400+lbs drug free in 5 years. They are the guys walking around with 18" lean arms after only lifting 2-4 years…or the ones squatting a buik for reps. They are NOT the guys who fuck around for a half decade looking completely average the whole time before they decide to work.[/quote]

Ok I got your point now. Misread your previous post apparently.

Actually, reading your last paragraph made me think…I wonder how many people WOULD’VE had the opportunity to compete at a higher level in their respective endeavor (BBing, PLing, strongman, whatever) if they’d only started seriously training at a younger age? I can’t think of many people that never touched a weight in their lives until they were, say, 25, then became a pro BBer. Would make sense, considering the kinds of abuse your body can take in the late teens/early 20’s, and come back stronger the next day despite [because of] it. Guess that’s another topic though.

94

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

What the hell? Look, if you have been lifting weights seriously on a regular basis for 4 fucking years and you don’t stand out at all in a crowd of other gym goers, you do NOT have the genetics for this. In fact, if you are basing this on some lame comparison of people who aren’t serious at all and people who are, then you miss the point to start with.

This is a bodybuilding forum. We don’t give a shit about people who aren’t serious. They are NEVER the topic of discussion when we are talking about making gains.[/quote]

I think the vast majority of people would stand out in a crowd of gym goers if they put SERIOUS effort into lifting and eating right for 4 consecutive years. Obviously the people that have come farther in that theoretical timeframe of hard training will generally continue to make better gains in the future, and have a better shot at pro BBing.

Pretty sure you’re focusing on the wrong aspect of this debate X…I never said everyone could be a pro bodybuilder in any weight class they want to, and win. My issue is with people who blame their genetics on everything, instead of figuring what they can do to keep improving themselves. I didn’t say genetics don’t make a difference. That would be stupid. [/quote]

I’m not focused on the wrong part. Yes, some of these people allow some perceived limit to hold sway on what they think they can do…largely before they ever set one foot out the door. Whether we blame the internet or not, this seems to be some widely growing trend where people log onto internet forums before they ever set foot in a gym to ask random questions about how much they can gain in one month…as if the answer to that question is what will decide whether they ever actually start training.

I don’t give a shit about any of those dumbfucks.

What is worse than those guys…are all of those people who act like they have forever to make progress…or that they can make a 50lbs gain next year…even though they aren’t gaining shit right now and never have.

That is why I focused on your comment.

There should never be a point where one of us half asses our way through four whole initial years in the gym…before finally deciding to eat more food or lift more weight.

Therefore, no, if you have the genetics for this, you will not have to wait 10 fucking years to know it. Those with the genes for this are the guys benching 400+lbs drug free in 5 years. They are the guys walking around with 18" lean arms after only lifting 2-4 years…or the ones squatting a buik for reps. They are NOT the guys who fuck around for a half decade looking completely average the whole time before they decide to work.[/quote]

For what it’s worth… A lot of the people who eventually came to me for help at our local gyms (before I switched to my totally awesome homegym) wasted their first 2-6 (or even more!) years of training more or less… Mostly because of their dietary habits, but they also usually didn’t come to the right conclusions about training-related stuff through trial and error…
A few had stand-out genetics (not Oly level obviously), and those looked better than the rest, but mostly they ended up at sub-200 or so at average height and fairly weak and just not all that impressive, sometimes after a decade of training…

Usually, fixing their diet and teaching them some important things about how to lift did the trick and they all went past 300/400/500 on the big three in no time, often within a year… Real old guys take longer obviously…

Now, most of them have fairly average genetics. They can all get to 250+ lbs of bodyweight without being fat, they can all build 19 or more inch arms eventually, if they do everything right and if they want to go there, food-wise (that’s the main issue, most of these guys are skinny hobby-soccer-players who need to eat a truckload to get anywhere)…

And despite all that, most of them didn’t make it anywhere on their own for a long time until they got someone to help them. Few big people to ask about stuff, lots of anti-big-guy propaganda from all the internet forums over the last decade, all the men’s health crap advice etc, or just plain ignorance of those who have literally no access to any kind of info source…

None of those guys will ever go pro in the IFBB or do real damage in the NPC, due to muscle-shape etc (quite a few could probably hold enough or nearly enough mass in contest shape at least with gear… But then again, most don’t have enough interest to go there) but it’s not like that really matters to them… Imo, the average person’s genetics are entirely sufficient for getting way bigger and stronger than most on this site, at least if they start before they turn 50… It’s usually other factors that limit them… Whether they know or want to acknowledge that or not.

Some people are simply naturals at this. Even if their shape isn’t right for making a major impact in the sport, they still learn quickly and on their own. A lot of people aren’t like that, from my experience, even some with better genetics than average…

So yeah… I would hesitate to judge someone based on their first few years of training, too. Really depends on whether they’ve been doing shit right or not… Over here, people mostly do a lot of things wrong. They may make some gains, but those don’t even remotely reflect their potential…

You have more serious trainees and serious gyms over in the U.S. though, so maybe that’s just a cultural difference or something… Most people here just mess up for a long time before they start making progress.

95

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

None of those guys will ever go pro in the IFBB or do real damage in the NPC, due to muscle-shape etc …

[/quote]

In my opinion, someone with 'GOOD GENETICS FOR BODYBUILDING" has the right muscle shape and they are also the ones who you look at and think, “given enough time and prep, this guy COULD do well at an NPC high level contest”.

I think we have a very drastic difference in opinion of what good genetics are.

Someone with the genes for this is going to progress rapidly assuming they are actually eating enough to gain weight and LIFTING. There isn’t much trial and error at all in beginner gains…and people with good genetics are going to blow those gains out of the water more than most. They are types who gain 20lbs in the first 1-2months.

Based on that, I am having a hard time understanding a client like you mentioned who trained hard and couldn’t even figure out they needed to eat enough to support it…FOR TEN WHOLE YEARS.

I would actually like to see a picture of one of these guys.

96

Judging by the RIDICULOUS amount of people I’ve had tell me “I can’t gain weight, I always eat a ton of food though”, and then turn out to be eating under 3000 calories a day…I’d assume there’s plenty of people with TONS of genetic potential or whatever you wanna call it, but it will never come CLOSE to being realized for this reason, combined with lack of training knowledge.

People assume everyone got where they are without even trying…not realizing that those of us who WANT that extra 20/40/60 lbs eat EVERY DAY until we are totally stuffed, week after week, year after year, constantly pushing our bodies to their limits, session after session. That isn’t luck.

97

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

None of those guys will ever go pro in the IFBB or do real damage in the NPC, due to muscle-shape etc …

[/quote]

In my opinion, someone with 'GOOD GENETICS FOR BODYBUILDING" has the right muscle shape and they are also the ones who you look at and think, “given enough time and prep, this guy COULD do well at an NPC high level contest”.

I think we have a very drastic difference in opinion of what good genetics are.

Someone with the genes for this is going to progress rapidly assuming they are actually eating enough to gain weight and LIFTING. There isn’t much trial and error at all in beginner gains…and people with good genetics are going to blow those gains out of the water more than most. They are types who gain 20lbs in the first 1-2months.

Based on that, I am having a hard time understanding a client like you mentioned who trained hard and couldn’t even figure out they needed to eat enough to support it…FOR TEN WHOLE YEARS.

I would actually like to see a picture of one of these guys.[/quote]

Maybe there weren’t as many “hard-gainers” in the Navy as the Marine Corps seems to magically have or something…haha.

I’m reasonably sure C_C isn’t saying all these guys could be competing on a national level though. Even if trainees don’t “blow up” the first 2-4 years of their training, it doesn’t mean they can’t get well over 200 lbs at average height, lean…it just takes time and dedication that the vast majority aren’t willing to put in.

98

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

None of those guys will ever go pro in the IFBB or do real damage in the NPC, due to muscle-shape etc …

[/quote]

In my opinion, someone with 'GOOD GENETICS FOR BODYBUILDING" has the right muscle shape and they are also the ones who you look at and think, “given enough time and prep, this guy COULD do well at an NPC high level contest”. [/quote] True, of course. There were a few of those (but not top of the line, as I said… A ronnie coleman would have blown past them easily of course, doing the exact same stuff they did, but even he can’t grow all that big without eating… [quote]

I think we have a very drastic difference in opinion of what good genetics are.
[/quote] Yeah well, I mostly deal with average guys, and my point was, even someone with average-joe genetics rarely gets into a situation where they can legitimately pull the “oh, my genetics are holding me back” -card… At least not in these internet discussions… None of these guys arguing so hard that they knew all about genetic limits and how you can’t possibly get past 200 lbs or built arms over 17 inches unless you have olympia-genetics (the ones I’ve seen pictures of) where anywhere close to the development of the rather average people (with 2-3 years of proper training and eating under their belt) I mentioned above… So I think they’re making excuses. [quote]

Someone with the genes for this is going to progress rapidly assuming they are actually eating enough to gain weight and LIFTING. There isn’t much trial and error [/quote] Not for you, and not for me, but for others there is… And I think that’s more of a mental issue than a physical one (not to say they’re stupid, they’re just smarter when it comes to other stuff, like mathematics or whatever… I suck at math.) [quote] at all in beginner gains…and people with good genetics are going to blow those gains out of the water more than most. They are types who gain 20lbs in the first 1-2months. [/quote] 20 lbs or so in the first 2 months are pretty much average gains of the people I’m talking about, especially for guys who start out underweight… Sometimes gaining like 6-8 lbs a week without getting fat… Once they get their shit together (mostly), and until they reach the intermediate stage where they slow way down again…

It’s just that they previously never really took the steps needed to make it happen, or make it happen at a speed faster than a crippled snail… Oh, some of them train quite intensely and all, but they eat very, very little protein and too little food overall, or party too much or whatever… And then they can train as intensely as they want, there’s nothing around for the body to build itself up with.

Some guys make gains, but slowly and it’s a constant up and down in performance during their training… Mostly those who eat just a bit above maintenance (the way so many internet gurus recommend)… They gain quite a bit of fat along with that (slowly, of course, haha) and their strength gains never really take off…
Now have them eat way above maintenance with maybe a little cardio here or there, give them a proper routine and their strength gains go crazy and they gain really fast with quite a reasonable amount of fat, sometimes little to none of long periods of time…
May not work with those crappy 5x5 routines, but whatever…

Extreme measures to make serious gains, none of that half-assed overly cautious shit so many here seem to do.

[quote]
Based on that, I am having a hard time understanding a client [/quote] They’re just guys I used to help out over the years, so not really clients… I did that for free (to the horror of my entire family, bwahaha) [quote] like you mentioned who trained hard and couldn’t even figure out they needed to eat enough to support it…FOR TEN WHOLE YEARS.

I would actually like to see a picture of one of these guys.[/quote]
Just look at most of the threads in the RMP forum… And yes, common sense (or dedication in the kitchen) does not exactly run rampant over here…

I might have been in the same boat if it weren’t for a few bigger guys who used to help me and my buddies out back in the day. We were all incredibly ignorant about this stuff at first. Don’t forget that in what used to be Eastern Germany, especially the rural areas like the one where I live and grew up in, people and culture are very different compared to the U.S. etc… 99 percent of the physical activity here is made up of soccer and walking around. That’s it. People here know jackshit about anything that doesn’t fit into their teeny-tiny horizons.

99

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

None of those guys will ever go pro in the IFBB or do real damage in the NPC, due to muscle-shape etc …

[/quote]

In my opinion, someone with 'GOOD GENETICS FOR BODYBUILDING" has the right muscle shape and they are also the ones who you look at and think, “given enough time and prep, this guy COULD do well at an NPC high level contest”.

I think we have a very drastic difference in opinion of what good genetics are.

Someone with the genes for this is going to progress rapidly assuming they are actually eating enough to gain weight and LIFTING. There isn’t much trial and error at all in beginner gains…and people with good genetics are going to blow those gains out of the water more than most. They are types who gain 20lbs in the first 1-2months.

Based on that, I am having a hard time understanding a client like you mentioned who trained hard and couldn’t even figure out they needed to eat enough to support it…FOR TEN WHOLE YEARS.

I would actually like to see a picture of one of these guys.[/quote]

Maybe there weren’t as many “hard-gainers” in the Navy as the Marine Corps seems to magically have or something…haha.

I’m reasonably sure C_C isn’t saying all these guys could be competing on a national level though. Even if trainees don’t “blow up” the first 2-4 years of their training, it doesn’t mean they can’t get well over 200 lbs at average height, lean…it just takes time and dedication that the vast majority aren’t willing to put in. [/quote]

Furthermore: I’m even hesitant to say “this guy has good genetics, this one doesn’t”. (er, to a degree I mean, obviously some guys really stand out right from the start, but bear with me here)

Okay, so for bbing, you have the best shot (overall… Super-mass potential comes into play more at the olympia level imo) with very good lines/muscle-shape, see flex wheeler, shawn ray, all those guys winning natty shows while being tiny…

Even Ronnie Coleman… Look at his 210 lb shots… That kind of muscle shape is what you usually need in order to be able to do real damage at a high level.

Still, a lot of guys with those lines gain fairly slowly, D-Jackson etc for example… Those guys didn’t really blow past everyone else during their first few years of training… Yet they still have some of the best genetics, shape-wise, and eventually all of them got fairly big (but not super-large, usually, more mid-sized by comparison).

Now you have guys like Cutler who’s kinda ugly, but gained really fast at the beginning… His shape is still good enough to compete at a high level, ok, but you see the difference?

Or Warren… Ugly motherfucker, and he only managed to sort of fix his imbalances during the last 2 years or so… And he didn’t even gain all that fast compared to many other pros at first (legs mostly, upper body was lagging behind a lot for a long time)…

All different kinds of “good genetics”. Ronnie combined almost all of them (ended up bloated later on of course and that sort of throws the readings off ;), or Levrone etc. Those are one in a million. A lot of guys at the O have a select few “good” genetic traits, but not all of them at once.

-Some guys can get really huge, really fast, and have great lines. Those are the most obvious from a young age. (but then again, sometimes they start out looking big already, sometimes not).

-Some have super great lines but take their time getting big, and probably won’t ever be super-heavies.

-Some can get really big but they take a long time to get there and their lines aren’t great, but they can still compete at a good level. Still good genetics, but it won’t be obvious for quite some time perhaps, especially if they start out underweight.

Even most average people have a few “good” genetic traits, say, great tricep shape and attachments, or the potential to get quite big (even though they don’t look overly aesthetic)… Hell, look at Yates and others like him. You wouldn’t have guessed that he’d ever turn pro if you’d seen him during his first few years… Or at least I wouldn’t have. Even his back didn’t look very impressive until he got his act together.

So… Even with guys who have above average genetics, you can’t always tell during the first few years… Kind of depends on which of the “good” genetic traits they have, no?

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Hell, let’s take H4M for example… Before his military time, he looked like every other guy in the rate-my-physique forum and was weak as a kitten and everything, not really making great progress from what I remember.

Then he gets his act together (especially diet, but also finds out what works for him, training-wise)and the gains take off like crazy… His barbell rowing strength for example is beyond anything I’ve seen anyone at that bodyweight do, even with tons of body-english… His overall strength at that weight etc (upper body hampered a bit by an injury temporarily) and the speed of his gains are crazy, you would never have guessed him to be capable of that if you’d followed his earlier progress…

So suddenly we find out that he’s actually got real great genetics for powerlifting… And with some more years under the belt he’ll do fairly well at bodybuilding as well. I can’t yet tell what his ultimate potential for bbing is… But I firmly believe now that he has the potential do get the all-time deadlift world record eventually. He may not reach that potential, but I think it’s there. I don’t say that without reason, and I’ve never seen anyone else on this site and thought the same.

Point is, it was simply impossible to gauge his potential before… There is one guy with apparently great powerlifting genes but he was dicking around for years looking like every other wannabe-lifter and not making any real gains… Until he figured it out. I would never have thought that this guy could reach any of the numbers I’m putting up, but now I’m sure that he’ll beat me in every pulling exercise, and probably squats too in a few years and he won’t even be at the top of his potential, and he can do it weighing way less than I do.

That’s what I mean… That’s why I don’t want to judge someones genetics based on their first few years of training, or even their total training age… Unless I know exactly how that guy trained and ate…

Not everyone with good to great genetics does actually stand out early… Just certain types, or guys who really do it right from the start.