None of those factors actually mean anything w.r.t. steroid use.
If you like the guy, cool. What difference would it make if he used or not?
agreed. I hadn’t decided if I was going to respond further, since emperor is pretty sure of himself and the knowledge he thinks he has. I don’t think I have the ability to help him see the light, lol. But yea, that last post is pretty telling regarding his lack of understanding of the subject. No reason to argue further. You would THINK someone who has no real interaction with the world of PED’s would listen to a dude who’s been on his side of the spectrum, and eventually learned a thing or 2 by crossing over to the dark side. Is what it is though, I think emperor’s like 20 years old. I thought I knew things at that age too. In fact, his list is pretty much exactly what I believed 10-15 years ago, and I would have sworn by it too.
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I grew up around it. A few of my cousins used them, but it wasn’t even like a big deal. In fact, I think that they weren’t even illegal at that point (late '70’s early 80’s). I do know of one actual psychopath that used steroids, and that was literally a fatal combination for others, but he was already so far outside of the norm that it doesn’t have any bearing on a conversation about normal people.
As I was typing I just had a laugh thinking about lunch with the old member here, Chushin. He basically used as TRT. One of the coolest most down to earth guys I’ve ever met. I think he said that they aren’t even regulated, or minimally, in Japan.
The puzzler for me is “pre-steroid era”. When was that? The '30’s?
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a dark fucking time for humanity
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Not sure why the lists I mentioned doesn’t mean anything w.r.t steroid use. They clearly do, although they don’t encompass all aspects. Again, hard to think clear when jealousy kicks in and knowing that a possible (keyword, no absolute) natural have made more gains than they ever will even with steroids.
no jealousy on my part. I’m not even a bodybuilder, lol.
I never took issue with the claim that what he’s done is POSSIBLE. I don’t actually know if it is or not, although I feel pretty confident that it is. The only thing I argued at any point was related to probability.
well then I can explain.
that’s not accurate, first of all. There is basically one study that refers to FFMI and steroid use, that everyone turns to for this argument. In this study, every natural athlete had an FFMI under 25 (not 26). The only athletes who exceeded 25 were on steroids. So to claim a FFMI of above 25 as ‘reasonable’ is… well, unreasonable. I’m attaching a link the abstract of that study here. Fat-Free Mass Index in Users and Nonusers of Anabolic-Androg... : Clinical Journal of Sport Medicine
This study is far from being the final word on ‘natural limits’, but it doesn’t exactly lend credence to your claim here. As far as pre steroid era bodybuilders go, I’m not sure who you’re talking about. Steroids have been around since the '30’s, and were being used by athletes in the '40’s. So you’d have to go before that, unless you’re just going to believe people who claimed they didn’t use them, which you can’t do for this particular argument. And it’s nearly impossible to truly judge actual FFMI of any bodybuilders pre 1930 because we don’t have much data to go by, only claims. We don’t actually know what a guy like Eugene Sandow ACTUALLY weighed. Just what he said he weighed. That’s why so many old strongman lifts and stuff like that are rather dubious claims, the older they get. So much related to the iron game is based on word of mouth, or claims by athletes themselves, but unverified by 3rd parties.
The next thing, the ‘no crazy delts or traps’ part, is shear bullshit. There has been no proven correlation between location of androgen receptors in the body, and bodyparts that become more highly developed through the use of steroids. If you have a study that proves otherwise, feel free to share it. I’ve never seen any statistical evidence. It’s bro science.
The hair thing is even stupider. Hair LENGTH has absolutely nothing to do with steroid use. What steroids CAN do is accelerate male pattern baldness in individuals who are prone to it. They can also increase the rate of hairline recession (which he has, by the way). But PLENTY of steroid users have great hair. Not all users end up with the same side effects, particularly when ancillary drugs are used to combat the sides. Hell, his hair could just be evidence that he’s used propecia, lol.
Competing in drug tested shows is something I already addressed. In the 90s it was not hard to pass drug tests. Many thousands of athletes have passed drug tests in the 90s, and more recently, who were definitely on steroids. This has been proven by later testing that was done on old samples, when testing technology improved.
‘Natural bodybuilding ambassador’? Is this a joke? That’s evidence to you? Moving on…
or maybe I shouldn’t move on, your last point is also dumb. Show me evidence that steroid use leads to ‘psychopathic behaviors’. And then show me your psychology degree that would give me a reason to believe you would be able to detect said behavior.
So yea. your list is garbage. Sorry.
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I mostly agree with your second and third points. You’ve made some good points
However,
You are only looking at only one study. Science is a collection of evidence. As a person who does scientific research in a reputable university, it is annoying how many times I’ve told this to people
2:16 Mike Israetel explains how research works, not even a reputable researcher and I doubt he does have many publications, but he knows the basic.
Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, a reputable researcher who works directly in exercise science, even said it himself, that FFMI of 25 is not the natural limit.
Who said steroids lead to psychopathic behaviors? I think you misunderstood my point. Read my post again. What I have said is Ade Rai is a naturally nice guy, I have seen him in a lot of talks shows, etc. He doesn’t exhibit psychopathic behaviors that would allow him to lie about his status in polygraph tests which can be passed easily by psychopaths. He also admitted being natural.
For example, most clueless people would think that Mike O’Hearn is a nice and passionate guy but as someone who knows ‘psychopath’ pretty well I can tell by his body language in interviews, his language, his facial expressions, tendencies etc that he has narcissistic personality disorder or other similar disorder. C’mon, do you really need a psychology degree to understand psychopathic tendencies? No. Just like you don’t need a physics degree to understand Newton’s Law of Gravity. You don’t need an exercise science degree to understand to build muscle the most efficient way. You just need to be in it long enough and learn from experiences. That’s what I exactly did to understand psychopathic tendencies, I was in that kind of relationship and I was aware of what’s happening and I learned from it. Ain’t no need to be a psychologist to understand baby.
In the end, believe what you believe, you’ve made a couple good points about the androgen receptors as well as the hair patterns. But other than that, rest are garbage because of what seems to be your lack understanding of science and a bit of jealousy. Also just to stress again, I don’t believe in absolutes. I am not convinced that he is natural but there is still a moderately high chance that he is. I am just gonna end it here.
He big.
He joocin.
I am all natural.
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yea I know that lol. My dad is a physics phd, my mom has a Chemistry degree. I grew up with science.
The problem with the FFMI stuff, as it relates to science, is that there aren’t a lot of studies that have been done. If you have other FFMI studies to share that are related to athletes not on steroids, that’d be great. I haven’t found any. There’s also the fact that FFMI may not even be a great formula in the first place. And aside from that, the study that has been done is kind of a crap study. So yes, I’m well aware of the limitations of the study. I also didn’t say at any point that 25 is a hard cap on a natural limit. What I SAID was that this particular study did not find any natural athletes, in a field of 80, who exceeded a 25 FFMI. It certainly does not prove anything regarding limits. The way it SHOULD be taken is that, when you come across an athlete over 25 FFMI, that skepticism should be employed regarding ‘natty status’.
Which is what I’ve said THIS ENTIRE TIME. I have not been saying that this guy is definitely on steroids, because I don’t believe he has to be. What I’m saying is that, given what we know about him, and given what we know about FFMI (which is admittedly not a ton), his appearance, etc, I believe that there’s a very high chance, well over 50%, that he used steroids. That’s all I’m claiming. Your insinuation, by saying that he’s probably natural, is that the odds are well under 50% that he’s used steroids. That’s all I take issue with. Honestly, if I had to guess, I’d bet there are natty lifters who have achieved 28+ FFMI. Maybe higher. The top IFBB pros, guys like Ronnie Coleman, would have probably had incredibly high FFMI if they had never touched steroids. The problem with bodybuilding is a sample size issue. The best bodybuilders are generally going to use steroids because the pinnacle of bodybuilding is The Olympia. And everyone on that stage uses. There’s no money, no real fame in natural bodybuilding. Ultra-competitive bodybuilders will almost always eventually turn to steroids, because they want to win.
yes. I don’t know why you’re so convinced otherwise. I don’t know why you’re so convinced that making psychological diagnoses can be done just by looking at someone’s IG account, reading a few interviews, etc. You DON’T actually know that Mike O’Hearn has a personality disorder. That’s ridiculous for you to make that claim.
Here’s a thought. Ask a psychologist if THEY could make that kind of diagnoses just from someone’s social media accounts. They would likely tell you that they can see some evidence, but would need to perform an interview to come up with a diagnosis. You’re not qualified to diagnosis any person with a personality disorder. Period. If you’d actually studied psychology in an academic setting, you would know this.
this is funny, given that I actually have a psychology degree from a reputable private University, and you don’t. I don’t see any reason other than your ego for you to believe you understand the science of psychology better than me.
is this serious, or are you just trying to get under my skin? Why in the world would I be jealous of this guy? He has nothing that I want, lol. I’m living my dreams over here, man. I’m a World-class strongman competitor. I own a company that grosses several million dollars in sales every year. I’ve got a wonderful family, an amazing son. This dude has… what, exactly? A silver medal from some bodybuilding contest I’ve never heard of, an IG account, and long hair? You’re a silly person, emperor. A very silly person.
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don’t pretend you’re not a tiny bit jealous of his hair
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your psychopathic tendencies say otherwise
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Psychopathic tendencies and gallons of sweet tea are the ways to ascending the mortal plane of natural biology.
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Hmmnn yes, I recall one of my college professors expousing something along those lines… 
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You had a college professor that was ahead of his time then. I am quite impressed. =D
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Slightly off topic but your response got me curious, what does your company do? Sounds like you’ve had a ton of success, congratulations on that. It’s always cool to see people who can excel in multiple endeavors like you have with strongman and business
it’s a metal fabrication company. so we have things like: a plasma cutter, a bunch of welders, a hydraulic press brake, lathe, drill presses, heavy duty shear, wheel balancer… etc. I also work with a laser shop regularly, and a machinist. The primary product we manufacture is a dust collector. Our dust collectors range from around 400 lbs to 6000 lbs (just to give you an idea of scale), and they are used for surface mining applications. Like coal mining, copper mining, stuff like that. I sell primarily to drill manufacturers, and then the drills end up all over the world.
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damn, sounds like quite the show you got running over there. Very cool, thanks for sharing
So I was perusing another site yesterday and came across a whole thread on the topic of Hansen’s “natural” status. Thought it was relevant within this thread because John has been a very public figure in the sport and his claim to fame is pretty much winning the “NATURAL Olympia”
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Its funny how they discount their usage, and use “weeks” as a unit of time to make it seem like nothing.
Dude… 12 weeks a year means you are juicing ~25% of the time (and thats assuming he’s being honest about his level of usage). Somehow that accounts for only ~5-10% “finishing touches” because Arnold said it.
I think if I spent 25% of my weight lifting time juiced up I’d be more than 5% ahead of where I am now, but that is just a guess.
That seems to be the common rationalizations;
Either:
1- I onjy did it after I reached the highest level because everyone else was doing it an I couldn’t compete otherwise.
Or
2- I onjy did it during prep so I wouldn’t lose as much muscle in the process (of course then they end up gaining lbm in the process -lol)
Note: I’m not anti-PED, I just want to point that out. Imo it’s a personal decision that anyone should be well informed about. I competed in tested shows because I’m a city employee and as much as I love bodybuilding, I wasn’t going to do anything that might be an issue for my livelihood in any way.
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