What Constitutes Strong?

Training Powerlifting
121

The numbers in this thread are unrealistic for most natural trainees. Some might reach these numbers if they train for enough time, but most people will not even come close.

Here you have a few proper sets of high rep squats.

Blenderate 462x20:

Bastionhead 335lbsx22:

Blenderate was the only one that beat me in the 20-rep squat T-Nation challenge that I started a long time ago. Not even this natural monster has been able to do a 500x20 rep squat. So who’s up to beat him on this forum? Not any lifetime natural lifter that I know of. In fact, the response to the 20 rep challenge was very disappointing. Most people are not able or willing to dig in to their last reserves and really work that high rep squat set till absolute concentric failure. I can understand that, because it is hard, and it is difficult, painful and all your instincts tell you to stop squatting when you are starting to dig into the very uncomfortable zone.

The numbers put forth in this thread as measurements to be met to be considered “strong” are very very high, and it would not put many natural trainees in the “strong”-category.

Here is a list of some more sane numbers for what’s considered strong:

There’s no point in setting standards that’s out of reach for many people, even if they trained their entire life.

Here’s links to some tables were you can see how you perform in your class regarding weight and gender:

It is more interesting if you are a “normal” person with a life outside training to see how you stand with these standards.

Of course, if you are an advanced powerlifter, you will already have reached “elite” levels in all three exercises according to these standards.

But the core of the issue is “what is strong?”. It depends on who you ask. We all have different standards. I believe that once you have trained for a few years, and you are stronger than most at your gym, then you are strong. Then there is superstrong, and out-of-this-world-strong.

So if you want to see how strong you are in comparison to other lifters in your federation, then check the results from the nationals etc… And be aware that there are many factors that determine how strong a lifter is (steroids or no-steroids, lifting gear or no lifting gear, type of gear,lifestyle, funding etc. etc.)

So use the exrx-standards as a guide, untill you’ve reached advanced status, then look further to “impossible” levels! :slight_smile:

Have a GREAT day!

122

i appreciate your passion for the squat Stallion. i believe you are taking this challenge too seriously. i started this thread to have some fun and hopefully have some people challenge themselves.

obviously each person will have their own ideas of how these movements should be performed and what the other criterias should be. for me, i use knee wraps and a belt and still consider this raw. i also use elbow sleeves on rep work. this is what i do and don’t expect anyone else to follow my lead.

just have fun with it. life is way to serious.

123

Stallion,

The website is pretty interesting, but I like the idea of seeing just how strong I can get, with the initial challenge. Maybe it’s just me, but looking at the numbers on the exrx website seemed too…final. It’s humorous to think that I am an “elite” lifter according to a couple of those categories, but I think I could probably push myself even further. And define “normal”! :wink:

124

[quote]stallion wrote:
The numbers in this thread are unrealistic for most natural trainees. Some might reach these numbers if they train for enough time, but most people will not even come close.

Here you have a few proper sets of high rep squats.

Blenderate 462x20:

Bastionhead 335lbsx22:

Blenderate was the only one that beat me in the 20-rep squat T-Nation challenge that I started a long time ago. Not even this natural monster has been able to do a 500x20 rep squat. So who’s up to beat him on this forum? Not any lifetime natural lifter that I know of. In fact, the response to the 20 rep challenge was very disappointing. Most people are not able or willing to dig in to their last reserves and really work that high rep squat set till absolute concentric failure. I can understand that, because it is hard, and it is difficult, painful and all your instincts tell you to stop squatting when you are starting to dig into the very uncomfortable zone.

The numbers put forth in this thread as measurements to be met to be considered “strong” are very very high, and it would not put many natural trainees in the “strong”-category.

Here is a list of some more sane numbers for what’s considered strong:

There’s no point in setting standards that’s out of reach for many people, even if they trained their entire life.

Here’s links to some tables were you can see how you perform in your class regarding weight and gender:

It is more interesting if you are a “normal” person with a life outside training to see how you stand with these standards.

Of course, if you are an advanced powerlifter, you will already have reached “elite” levels in all three exercises according to these standards.

But the core of the issue is “what is strong?”. It depends on who you ask. We all have different standards. I believe that once you have trained for a few years, and you are stronger than most at your gym, then you are strong. Then there is superstrong, and out-of-this-world-strong.

So if you want to see how strong you are in comparison to other lifters in your federation, then check the results from the nationals etc… And be aware that there are many factors that determine how strong a lifter is (steroids or no-steroids, lifting gear or no lifting gear, type of gear,lifestyle, funding etc. etc.)

So use the exrx-standards as a guide, untill you’ve reached advanced status, then look further to “impossible” levels! :slight_smile:

Have a GREAT day!

[/quote]

I agree somewhat with you, as I’ve said before… But those ERX numbers are waaaay too low for the second half of the weight-classes. And maybe even a little high for the lighter classes… Bit weird. They start off high and soon get to a point where they’re just a joke (too low).

Anyway, there are some numbers in the original table from realpc that I have no hope of reaching (squat especially, probably the pullups too), and some exercises I can’t do (dips, straight bar curls), but then again some I’ve reached years ago in training (mil press, bench)… I think it’s a nice mixed list, everybody probably has at least a chance at one or two of those numbers, maybe more… Provided they aren’t afraid of gaining some weight and doing some BB-style work…
It would be crazy to expect someone to be able to hit all of these… Kaz could probably have done it, maybe poundstone… But who cares, it’s a challenge after all, and not one to take all that seriously.

Btw, what about bluecollartr8n… Old man (drug-free, I believe) is one impressive squatter for his low bodyweight and “old” age… And supposedly could get pretty darn close to those 500x20, as a drug-free guy… I believe him, anyway. 2 years ago he was still out-squatting me for reps, a guy weighing at the time 100 lbs more than he did and being some 20+ years younger.

Some people are totally out-standing at a few particular exercises, everyone probably has one they’re great at, potential-wise… Just not every exercise.

125

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[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i appreciate your passion for the squat Stallion. i believe you are taking this challenge too seriously. i started this thread to have some fun and hopefully have some people challenge themselves.

obviously each person will have their own ideas of how these movements should be performed and what the other criterias should be. for me, i use knee wraps and a belt and still consider this raw. i also use elbow sleeves on rep work. this is what i do and don’t expect anyone else to follow my lead.

just have fun with it. life is way to serious.

[/quote]

126

[quote]stallion wrote:
The numbers in this thread are unrealistic for most natural trainees. Some might reach these numbers if they train for enough time, but most people will not even come close.
[/quote]

The whole point was to come up with #'s to put you at an elite level. So of course most people will not even come close!

The exrx #'s are ok, if you go by their definitions. Exrx defines “Elite” as “Refers specifically to athletes competing in strength sports. Less than 1% of the weight training population will attain this level.” I’d say that less than 1% of the weight training population will attain this level, only because the other 99% never care to; most people will be able to reach Exrx’s status of elite given enough time & proper training.

The elite #'s posted here, are referring to the elite of Exrx’s elite. And actually, the purpose of said #'s are entirely different; conditioning is taken into account with the #'s posted here, while it’s ignored on Exrx’s tables.

127

short one tonight…

decided to give the strict standing military press a go first tonight. i’ve decided to just keep adding 10-15lbs each week until i hit a true max. worked up to 265 tonight. that was 15lbs over last week. still very easy… then moved on to reverse band deads with the medium bands. hit a 30lb PR with these but that left my P chain fried.

highlights from tonight…

standing strict military press
265x1 +15lbs from last week

reverse band deads- medium bands
765x1 +30lb PR

had planned to hit the rep deads against bands but was wayyyy too fried.

that’s it.

128

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]stallion wrote:
The numbers in this thread are unrealistic for most natural trainees. Some might reach these numbers if they train for enough time, but most people will not even come close.

Here you have a few proper sets of high rep squats.

Blenderate 462x20:

Bastionhead 335lbsx22:

Blenderate was the only one that beat me in the 20-rep squat T-Nation challenge that I started a long time ago. Not even this natural monster has been able to do a 500x20 rep squat. So who’s up to beat him on this forum?

Not any lifetime natural lifter that I know of. In fact, the response to the 20 rep challenge was very disappointing. Most people are not able or willing to dig in to their last reserves and really work that high rep squat set till absolute concentric failure.

I can understand that, because it is hard, and it is difficult, painful and all your instincts tell you to stop squatting when you are starting to dig into the very uncomfortable zone.

The numbers put forth in this thread as measurements to be met to be considered “strong” are very very high, and it would not put many natural trainees in the “strong”-category.

Here is a list of some more sane numbers for what’s considered strong:

There’s no point in setting standards that’s out of reach for many people, even if they trained their entire life.

Here’s links to some tables were you can see how you perform in your class regarding weight and gender:

It is more interesting if you are a “normal” person with a life outside training to see how you stand with these standards.

Of course, if you are an advanced powerlifter, you will already have reached “elite” levels in all three exercises according to these standards.

But the core of the issue is “what is strong?”. It depends on who you ask. We all have different standards. I believe that once you have trained for a few years, and you are stronger than most at your gym, then you are strong. Then there is superstrong, and out-of-this-world-strong.

So if you want to see how strong you are in comparison to other lifters in your federation, then check the results from the nationals etc… And be aware that there are many factors that determine how strong a lifter is (steroids or no-steroids, lifting gear or no lifting gear, type of gear,lifestyle, funding etc. etc.)

So use the exrx-standards as a guide, untill you’ve reached advanced status, then look further to “impossible” levels! :slight_smile:

Have a GREAT day!

[/quote]

I agree somewhat with you, as I’ve said before… But those ERX numbers are waaaay too low for the second half of the weight-classes. And maybe even a little high for the lighter classes… Bit weird. They start off high and soon get to a point where they’re just a joke (too low).

Anyway, there are some numbers in the original table from realpc that I have no hope of reaching (squat especially, probably the pullups too), and some exercises I can’t do (dips, straight bar curls), but then again some I’ve reached years ago in training (mil press, bench)…

I think it’s a nice mixed list, everybody probably has at least a chance at one or two of those numbers, maybe more… Provided they aren’t afraid of gaining some weight and doing some BB-style work…

It would be crazy to expect someone to be able to hit all of these… Kaz could probably have done it, maybe poundstone… But who cares, it’s a challenge after all, and not one to take all that seriously.

Btw, what about bluecollartr8n… Old man (drug-free, I believe) is one impressive squatter for his low bodyweight and “old” age… And supposedly could get pretty darn close to those 500x20, as a drug-free guy… I believe him, anyway. 2 years ago he was still out-squatting me for reps, a guy weighing at the time 100 lbs more than he did and being some 20+ years younger.

Some people are totally out-standing at a few particular exercises, everyone probably has one they’re great at, potential-wise… Just not every exercise.
[/quote]

The biggest factor in these numbers is that they do not allow for weight gain just to cheat them in. I’ve heard of guys gaining 20-30 pounds in a month to make bench attempts.

These numbers will not allow you to do that because something else takes a dive. You can’t gain 30 pounds to bench bigger and also hit the chins at the same time. Or stay in good enough condition to make the 20 rep squats and deads.

As this has gotten around the net out of shape/fat guys have protested the most. And that’s good, because Wendler and I have the same motto. Run, lift, bang. I don’t really care if you can bench 700 pounds if you need an oxygen tank to walk around because you’re so damn fat and bloated. I’ll gladly sacrifice some strength in order to feel good, be able to run and move.

And it’s ok if you don’t like these numbers. No, not everyone will hit them natural or not. But if you get close you’re going to be a heck of a beast, natural or not. And isn’t it about maximizing genetic potential? I think it also makes you think more about training economy. Quit doing so much “crap” and narrow it down to just what you need.

129

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
To me, the most feasible one would be deadlifts. 500x20 doesn’t seem so bad.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

Me too…

Johnnytang, You think deadlifting 500x20 is easier to achieve than pressing 315 overhead once, standing?
[/quote]

To me 500x20 is probably the easiest thing to get there, I’ve only been deadlifting for 6 months and got 315x15 the other day, and that was with max rest of 5 seconds between reps. I know 315 is not 500, but still 500x20 deadlift seems a hell of a lot easier than those other one. 500x20 squat is just fucking ridiculous though…

130

[quote]TD54 wrote:
I’m such a pussy, these numbers are out of my comprehension

To me, strong on the main three lifts is
Bench 315
Squat 315
Dead 405

If big JW thinks a 500 x 20 squat is strong, i wonder what the regular public thinks of it hah
[/quote]

Those would be insanely wacked out ratios, if you are benching 315 you should be squatting at LEAST 405, probably mid 400’s+, and deadlifting in the 500’s

131

[quote]shootingman99 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
To me, the most feasible one would be deadlifts. 500x20 doesn’t seem so bad.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

Me too…

Johnnytang, You think deadlifting 500x20 is easier to achieve than pressing 315 overhead once, standing?
[/quote]

To me 500x20 is probably the easiest thing to get there, I’ve only been deadlifting for 6 months and got 315x15 the other day, and that was with max rest of 5 seconds between reps. I know 315 is not 500, but still 500x20 deadlift seems a hell of a lot easier than those other one. 500x20 squat is just fucking ridiculous though…
[/quote]

i would rather squat 500x20 than deadlift. It’s all in how you are structured. i need an extra 6 inches or so of arm length and i’ll be good.

132

[quote]shootingman99 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
To me, the most feasible one would be deadlifts. 500x20 doesn’t seem so bad.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

Me too…

Johnnytang, You think deadlifting 500x20 is easier to achieve than pressing 315 overhead once, standing?
[/quote]

To me 500x20 is probably the easiest thing to get there, I’ve only been deadlifting for 6 months and got 315x15 the other day, and that was with max rest of 5 seconds between reps. I know 315 is not 500, but still 500x20 deadlift seems a hell of a lot easier than those other one. 500x20 squat is just fucking ridiculous though…
[/quote]

when you first start deadlifting, gains come ridiculously fast. After they shoot up, they will all but stall out. Gaining weight and growing will only help your deadlift so much (once you reach a point it doesn’t help at all and can even hurt it). After a while, your squat will start to catch up to your deadlift.

133

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i need an extra 6 inches or so of arm length and i’ll be good.
[/quote]

Is that something you’re working on? how do you train for arm length?

134

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i need an extra 6 inches or so of arm length and i’ll be good.
[/quote]

Is that something you’re working on? how do you train for arm length?[/quote]

there’s an experimental procedure that i’m looking into. I’ll have to fly to South America and pay in cash though. I’m sure it will all workout just fine.

my ultimate goal is to have arms long enough that if i get tired of walking i can just pick them up and walk on my nuckles. considering i wear 40x29 jeans, an extra 6 inches of arm length should do the trick.

135

BOF training…

highlights from tonight…
4 board bench press- feet up, no liftoff, paused.

515x1 +20lb PR

535x hit upright

standing strict military press- decided to do these tonight instead of on accessory day… bad move. i was so gassed when i got to these that everything felt heavy and slow. pretty happy with the outcome though. this was still 10lbs over last week in a very fatigued state. hopefully fresh(er), i’ll be good for low 300’s soon.
275x1 + 10lb PR- totally gassed and triceps fried.

136

WARNING: Long post. Originally posted in Meats “Riding the Line” thread in the bodybuilding forum.

Ok I am joining Meat in his quest for these Wendler numbers.

Squat: I have done 500 for a set of 10 in the past. Video bellow. This was about 2 months ago. I managed to tweek my shoulders by letting my head drop forward after rep 9, which caused the bar to roll back a little bit. Got to work on staying tight and getting the breathing down.

[video]1619[/video]

My plan to take it to 20 reps is this: I feel like the only way to attain that kind of volume with this weight is to get my body accustomed to it gradually over time. I intend to work with 500 until I can get it for 5X5 for a total of 25 reps in one squatting session. From there, I will play with the set/rep layout untill I can hit 5X10, or 50 total reps with it in one session. I think that if I can get 50 good reps with it in one night, then I should be good for one all out 20 rep set.

Deadlift: I have done 500 for 10 here also. These were with no wraps. Chalk and belt only. I paused at the bottom to catch my breath and stretch out my glutes/hams/low back after about rep 5 I think. This was done before I got my camera, so no video, yet. I plan on attacking this one the same way as the squat, with the difference being that I will be focusing on rack pulls untill I hit the squat I think. Trying to do the full range deads and squats at once seems like a recipe for failure to me. I also have some hitching issues I want to work out first.

[video]1656[/video]

Bench: I tried 315 last night and banged out 14. It was pretty damn hard to stay tight for the whole set. Gotta work on that. I think I will attack this one the same as the squat and dead.

[video]1699[/video]

Standing military press: This one, is a bit different I think. I have never actually done strict standing military presses before. I managed 275 the other day, but after looking at the video, I saw that I had much more knee drive than I thought I had. The only standing pressing work that I have ever done is the clean and jerk from the hang, and regular clean and jerks. So, unlearning this exploading thing is going to take a bit I think. I am pretty sure I have the shoulder stregnth for it, as I have seated DB military pressed 140s for sets of 5, and done seated pin presses with 315 for a double before. I also need to figure out what base to use in order to avoid leg cramps/spasms. I played with this throughout the session, and will simply have to keep experimenting with it.

[video]1698[/video]

Dips: I tried those for the first time in over a year the other night. I ditched these a while ago due to shoulder pain. I think this was caused by excessive forward lean as Meat said. Staying upright, or close to it, helped a good bit. I stayed with bodyweight here and am going to slowly build up with them.

The curls: Ok, I absolutely HATE barbell curls. I will start on these light and see if my wrists can take it. Hopefully they will adapt. If not, I will sub in a wrapless 140LB dumbell hammer curl for 10 reps per arm.

Pull-ups: Alright, this will be the hardest one by a long mile. I have not worked on these in quite a while, and my 285LB fat ass is not going to like it. I believe I am going to have to hit all the others first, and then drop weight for this. The best I have ever done with pull-ups is a bodyweight set of 19 at 235LBs. This one will be a long time comming I think.

I think this was everything. I find it rather odd that we have a horizontal and verticle press, but only a verticle pull(the bench, MP, and pull-ups repsectively). I know the deadlift is a pull, but I have always thought of it as more of a total body lift or lower body lift, where as the previous three are clearly upper body dominant in the extreme. So, I am adding a 300LB Kroc row for a set of 12 or more each arm. I feel this should be in there because Kroc is the only dude I have ever seen do it, and by God, we can’t let people be lonely can we?

[video]1691[/video]

[video]1692[/video]

The previous videos are me hitting 271.2LBs for 12 each arm. Only 10LBs shy of bodyweight, and on the way to 300.

As always, any advice, feedback or whatever is welcome. Now, lets get fucking huge.

EDIT: I will be attempting to hit all of these in a fresh state. I have not had a solid overall goal to shoot for in a while, so this should be fun.

137

That’s why when someone was saying the 315 strict was so easy it made me laugh. Everyone I know that talks about putting that kind of weight overhead it’s almost always a push press or a push jerk. And yeah, lots of guys can do 315 in that fashion. That doesn’t really impress me. A 315 STRICT standing overhead is pretty rare.

Instead of trying to drop weight later just get in shape and start the chins now. Again, the whole point of all the numbers is to produce something that is in awesome shape and strong as hell. Striving for all the numbers at once is really the big picture because it forces you into uncomfortable places.

Critique wise, the squats looked high to me. But I’m kind of an asshole about squat depth. The top of your thigh doesn’t look like it breaks below your hip or even gets parallel. Maybe a side view next time.

Obviously no hitching on the dead. You noted that.

Your video also has a lot to do with why I would never include rows in this. Everyone has their idea of what a row is. That’s not mine.

Your base is good on the squat, dead, bench, and overhead of course. I would start in some conditioning work after you lift and work the hell out of the chins now instead of later.

138

[quote]RealPC wrote:
That’s why when someone was saying the 315 strict was so easy it made me laugh. Everyone I know that talks about putting that kind of weight overhead it’s almost always a push press or a push jerk. And yeah, lots of guys can do 315 in that fashion. That doesn’t really impress me. A 315 STRICT standing overhead is pretty rare.

Instead of trying to drop weight later just get in shape and start the chins now. Again, the whole point of all the numbers is to produce something that is in awesome shape and strong as hell. Striving for all the numbers at once is really the big picture because it forces you into uncomfortable places.

Critique wise, the squats looked high to me. But I’m kind of an asshole about squat depth. The top of your thigh doesn’t look like it breaks below your hip or even gets parallel. Maybe a side view next time.

Obviously no hitching on the dead. You noted that.

Your video also has a lot to do with why I would never include rows in this. Everyone has their idea of what a row is. That’s not mine.

Your base is good on the squat, dead, bench, and overhead of course. I would start in some conditioning work after you lift and work the hell out of the chins now instead of later. [/quote]

Thanks for this. I will see if I can get a better video for the squats next time then and work on my depth. No worries on calling it high. If it looks high, then its high, its just something to work on.

Fair enough on the rows, as it does seem like everybody does rows a little differently.

Having never done the strict standing overhead press, I was rather supprised at its difficulty. Easy is not the word I would use for getting 315 strict on this, after having actually done them.

139

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]shootingman99 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
To me, the most feasible one would be deadlifts. 500x20 doesn’t seem so bad.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

Me too…

Johnnytang, You think deadlifting 500x20 is easier to achieve than pressing 315 overhead once, standing?
[/quote]

To me 500x20 is probably the easiest thing to get there, I’ve only been deadlifting for 6 months and got 315x15 the other day, and that was with max rest of 5 seconds between reps. I know 315 is not 500, but still 500x20 deadlift seems a hell of a lot easier than those other one. 500x20 squat is just fucking ridiculous though…
[/quote]

when you first start deadlifting, gains come ridiculously fast. After they shoot up, they will all but stall out. Gaining weight and growing will only help your deadlift so much (once you reach a point it doesn’t help at all and can even hurt it). After a while, your squat will start to catch up to your deadlift. [/quote]

NOOOOOOOOOOO! Don’t say that I never want my deadlift to stall out! I do think my deadlift will probably always be my strongest lift, I haven’t stalled yet on it.

140

[quote]shootingman99 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]shootingman99 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]johnnytang24 wrote:
To me, the most feasible one would be deadlifts. 500x20 doesn’t seem so bad.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree.[/quote]

Me too…

Johnnytang, You think deadlifting 500x20 is easier to achieve than pressing 315 overhead once, standing?
[/quote]

To me 500x20 is probably the easiest thing to get there, I’ve only been deadlifting for 6 months and got 315x15 the other day, and that was with max rest of 5 seconds between reps. I know 315 is not 500, but still 500x20 deadlift seems a hell of a lot easier than those other one. 500x20 squat is just fucking ridiculous though…
[/quote]

when you first start deadlifting, gains come ridiculously fast. After they shoot up, they will all but stall out. Gaining weight and growing will only help your deadlift so much (once you reach a point it doesn’t help at all and can even hurt it). After a while, your squat will start to catch up to your deadlift. [/quote]

NOOOOOOOOOOO! Don’t say that I never want my deadlift to stall out! I do think my deadlift will probably always be my strongest lift, I haven’t stalled yet on it.
[/quote]

i’ll agree with this. it seems like my deadlift is the only lift that keeps going up