Westside Program Comments

[quote]zombiec wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
If you’re a beginner, then you probably don’t need to deload very often. You don’t have enough neural efficiency to wear our your CNS. Once you get more advanced then deload every 4th week.

I used to just do 3x5 or 5x5 with 50% of my max and go lighter on accessories. Now I stay away from barbell movements and just do light accessories. As you get stronger, you need more of a deload.[/quote]

thanls i just than to get that 275 bench ive been training like 4 months not stop…very few light days…
and the in the past 6 weeks ive missed the third lift in two me movement …so dont know if i need a deload or just start changing me movements more often…
however put +40 pounds in my bench this year…[/quote]

You’ve missed the 3rd rep when going for a 3RM or you missed your 3rd single over 90%? It might not be a bad idea to back off for a week.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:

Tuesday:
ME bench (rotation of a lower end movement, mid-range movement, and lockout movement)
4/5-bd for sets of 5 (sometimes rolling DB extensions)
Barbell rows for sets of 5-8
Panora press for sets of 15-20

[/quote]

What are some good lower and mid-range movements for Bench? Most of the variations I can think of are more for the upper/lockout part.
[/quote]

I’d go with 3-sec paused bench, 2-bd, illegal wide, and floor press. The lower part should be lats and leg drive. Barbell rows are a good accessory to help. Mid-range is usually shoulders, and I like floor press for it. It takes away your leg drive, and I’ve always felt it’s hard to use lats on it.

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:

[quote]zombiec wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
If you’re a beginner, then you probably don’t need to deload very often. You don’t have enough neural efficiency to wear our your CNS. Once you get more advanced then deload every 4th week.

I used to just do 3x5 or 5x5 with 50% of my max and go lighter on accessories. Now I stay away from barbell movements and just do light accessories. As you get stronger, you need more of a deload.[/quote]

thanls i just than to get that 275 bench ive been training like 4 months not stop…very few light days…
and the in the past 6 weeks ive missed the third lift in two me movement …so dont know if i need a deload or just start changing me movements more often…
however put +40 pounds in my bench this year…[/quote]

You’ve missed the 3rd rep when going for a 3RM or you missed your 3rd single over 90%? It might not be a bad idea to back off for a week.[/quote]
one was my third rep the third week with one movement

others was my third single the third week with another movement,

I’d try rotating exercises every two weeks then. Then when you can’t PR the second week start switching every week, but keep it to 4-6 exercises.

[QUOTE]TomVZ wrote:
too much accessory work will actually hinder your progress[/quote]
This is very true and I often see people doing a crazy amount of accessory work, but even if you take a look at the westside training log (from the westside barbell website), you’ll see that you really want to keep it to 3-4, maybe 5 exercises with the main ME exercise (it seems the more experienced the lifter the fewer the exercises used).
Another thing people seem to have problems with is not going to failure on assistance work - most people need an ego check before they can use lower weights for their sets.

[/QUOTE]

They don’t list everything they do on the training log. I know AJ Roberts goes in to do upper back work twice a week, and those workouts aren’t posted on the training log.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
They don’t list everything they do on the training log. I know AJ Roberts goes in to do upper back work twice a week, and those workouts aren’t posted on the training log.[/quote]

While this could very well be true it doesn’t really change the point.

edit: I don’t mean to say I’m 100% correct, but in my opinion some people ARE doing too much assistance work… Many of the people I see for whom westside ‘didn’t’ work had too much accessory work – that and personal experience is what I’m basing it off of.

Now, you did disprove one part of my evidence, but the guys at westside are far from the level of even most lifters here, to be fair.

edit 2: By the way, thanks for pointing that out. It is good to know.

Westside really depends on the assistance work, otherwise you just aren’t going to be getting in enough volume to grow and get stronger. Max effort and dynamic effort work will get you stronger, but only to a point. At some point you are going to need volume and that’s what the assistance work is for.

The fact that not everything they do is on their website does change the point. You can’t draw conclusions regarding what westside doesn’t do based on the incomplete info on their website.

People would be better served figuring out the amount of assistance work that works for them personally. Wendler liked to do 3-4 exercises per session TOPS. Ano Turtiainen does 7-8 exercises per session. I’ve seen Vogelpohl do upwards of 10 exercises in a training session on a regular basis and train in some way 6 times per week. AJ Roberts trains 6 days a week, where as Matt Rhodes and Wendler train 3 now. All of these guys however, have a couple of things in common: the smash fucking weights on a weekly basis and they don’t get sand in their panties if they end up doing more than 5 exercises in a training session because they’re more concerned with what they know works for them as opposed to some arbitrary limit on the number of exercises you’re supposed to do.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Westside really depends on the assistance work
[/quote]

You’re right, if you’re doing 3-5 exercises you’re just wasting your time and ruining the program.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
otherwise you just aren’t going to be getting in enough volume to grow and get stronger. Max effort and dynamic effort work will get you stronger, but only to a point. At some point you are going to need volume and that’s what the assistance work is for.
[/quote]

Yea, ‘figuring out the amount of assistance work that works for them personally’ - that is, unless it’s not enough for your taste! Then they’re wasting their fuckin time!

Listen, you’re off course here, we’re not talking about NOT doing assistance, but how much to do - you’re twisting your argument (indirectly or no) in a way that makes it appear that I’m suggesting that assistance takes a back seat and should be done as little as possible.

My MAIN point is that people need to be careful about not overdoing assistance. I can’t imagine you can honestly disagree with this.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
The fact that not everything they do is on their website does change the point. You can’t draw conclusions regarding what westside doesn’t do based on the incomplete info on their website.[/quote]

Again, as I said, that is only one part of my evidence, and I did yield that you proved it wrong. It isn’t my only source of information.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
the smash fucking weights on a weekly basis and they don’t get sand in their panties if [/quote]

You’re a twat lol.

For what it’s worth, I agree with:

[though I would like to qualify that care should be taken to not over do it]

Which is your main point, I take it, and we can end it at that.

I don’t think the aggressiveness is warranted, personally, and I already regret my reciprocation of it, but this is pointless.

What’s your other source of information then? I’ll let you answer before I give mine.

I never said that there was a definite, catch-all minimum or maximum amount of assistance work. In fact, if you read my posts, you’ll see that I’m saying that there ISN’T one and people SHOULDN’T make absolute rules out of fuzzy, broad guidelines like you did previously.

You’re suggesting that someone should limit their assistance work to 3-4 exercises after their main movement. If you do, say, a max effort board press, one auxiliary pressing exercise (lets say dumbell presses), a tricep isolation exercise, and two lat movements, then that’s 4 lifts. Now, is throwing in some shoulder training and some direct bicep work in order to keep tendons happy going to fuck up the progress? Of course not, but according to your little arbitrary rule of 5 lifts that you made up based on some incomplete info on WSB’s website, that’s too much because it’s 7 exercises. Training is not this black and white and the fact that you are making it out to be tells me you haven’t been at it for very long because you’re dead set on clinging to templates rather than listening to your body and getting shit done.

I understand your main point, but you did a bad job of making your main point and I am clarifying this for you. You’re the one arguing with me. If you’re doing too much or too little work, then you aren’t going to get stronger, and if you aren’t getting stronger, you’re wasting your fucking time. I’m arguing against wasting your time.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
You’re suggesting that someone should limit their assistance work to 3-4 exercises after their main movement. If you do, say, a max effort board press, one auxiliary pressing exercise (lets say dumbell presses), a tricep isolation exercise, and two lat movements, then that’s 4 lifts. Now, is throwing in some shoulder training and some direct bicep work in order to keep tendons happy going to fuck up the progress? Of course not, but according to your little arbitrary rule of 5 lifts that you made up based on some incomplete info on WSB’s website, that’s too much because it’s 7 exercises. Training is not this black and white and the fact that you are making it out to be tells me you haven’t been at it for very long because you’re dead set on clinging to templates rather than listening to your body and getting shit done.
[/quote]
We’re having a few misunderstandings.

1st] I am not referring to everything that is not the ME exercise as assistance, but rather those that work the muscles directly involved - chest, tris, and shoulders for bench - these would include exercises like JM Press, Shoulder Press, Triceps Extensions, etc…

I would not include rows, pull ups, biceps work, rear delt work, forearm work, core work, etc… as assistance.

*edit: and yes, by the way, I do realize there are many who would consider lats work direct assistance work supplemental to the bench press

2nd] I think you misunderstood how much of a ‘rule’ the figure I stated was. I would think from the way I worded it would be taken more as range mentioned in passing… Furthermore, if you consider my naming reference above, you’ll see that 3-5 is a pretty broad range.

I’d like make an aside now that you’re still a twat:

‘little’ ‘arbitrary’ ‘incomplete info on WSB’s website’

lol…

Ok, carrying on:

3rd] Set on making it black and white? Sticking to templates? Not listening to my body?

For fuck-sakes, come on man; what do you think I meant by this?

That is nothing but a shallow ad-hominem attack.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
What’s your other source of information then? I’ll let you answer before I give mine.
[/quote]
Again, reading people’s logs (as I said, I noticed most people who had a bad time with westside had a lot of assistance), and personal experience.

On top of that, Dave Tate and Louie Simmons’ writings.

4th possible misunderstanding] What I wrote, and my sources^^^, are for beginners on the westside program and perhaps in general, not seasoned and expert powerlifters.

If you INSIST, I can look through the articles and such I have saved to find figures, but I don’t think it’s incredibly important.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I never said that there was a definite, catch-all minimum or maximum amount of assistance work. [/quote]
No you didn’t explicitly say it, but you went on about westside being about the accessories and not doing enough of them in such a way that you implied that what I said was far too little volume.

That’s what I meant by the ‘twisting’ - I do believe it was subconscious and not intentional.

Most important of all, though:

[quote]TomVZ wrote:
For what it’s worth, I agree with:

[though I would like to qualify that care should be taken to not over do it]

Which is your main point, I take it, and we can end it at that.

I don’t think the aggressiveness is warranted, personally, and I already regret my reciprocation of it, but this is pointless.[/quote]

Do you really think this is worth arguing over, seeing as how I agree with you?

ok the bottom line is that you need to figure out what works for you. That’s the great thing about the conjugate/ Westside program, there is no program set in stone, you tailor it to your individual needs. What worked for a Westside lifter, and made him a world-record holder, may not get you anywhere.

Personally, I am having great results with no more than 4 accessory movements, which target my weak points, and areas that don’t get enough work during my ME/ DE movements. When my gains slow down, and my lifts plateau, I may change this. When I said too much accessory work could hinder your progress, I was referring to some of the guys I train with who had that happen to them, and some of the reports of this I’ve read happening. Of course, we aren’t professional, world-ranked power lifters. We’re ordinary guys in our 20s working to get bigger, faster, and stronger, in the most efficient manner possible. I know that Westside guys often do extra workouts. With my lifestyle, I have about an hour and a half MAX to spend in the gym, I don’t have the time to do extra workouts, or do bunches of accessory movements.

[quote]TomVZ wrote:
If you INSIST, I can look through the articles and such I have saved to find figures, but I don’t think it’s incredibly important.

[/quote]

If you insist, I can go talk to the people I know that actually trained there and get their perspective on assistance work. I guarantee you it’s nowhere near as set in stone as you like to believe based on the articles you read somewhere.

For the people that are just starting a westside based program, 3-5 exercises is a great STARTING POINT. That is what the thread is, a starting point. After a few weeks or months on the program, people should figure out if that is too much or not enough OBVIOUSLY.

Damn, and I was just starting to think “holy shit, a decent thread on T-Nation”

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
If you insist, I can go talk to the people I know that actually trained there and get their perspective on assistance work. I guarantee you it’s nowhere near as set in stone as you like to believe based on the articles you read somewhere.[/quote]

Misconceptions #2 and #3 buddy; I’ve covered this.

[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
For the people that are just starting a westside based program, 3-5 exercises is a great STARTING POINT. That is what the thread is, a starting point. After a few weeks or months on the program, people should figure out if that is too much or not enough OBVIOUSLY.

Damn, and I was just starting to think “holy shit, a decent thread on T-Nation”[/quote]

Haha I think it’s still a pretty good thread to have around, though I regret my part in lowering it’s quality, and apologize to T-Nationers for that.