Westside Program Comments

It was my experience that I was trying to keep my good mornings too strict. Head back, arched back, trying to go to parallel… screw that.

I use a head forward shoulders back posture now, and I don’t go down as low and it keeps the bar tighter on my back and doesn’t let it roll at the bottom. I can pump out a LOT more weight this way, and I feel my abs and lower back fighting the weight, and the next day my hammies are fried. Now that I do them “right” they are one of my favorite movements, especially since I can’t back squat regularly without back pain.

If you still can’t get them, try them suspended by strapping or chains, or even from the safety pins if you don’t have straps or chains. Starting from the bottom, most people have an easier time with them. If you can, get a video from the side view.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

Use briefs or a loose squat suit, even if you compete raw, to help with the hip pain. Box squats tear shit up.[/quote]

Other options:
Tight Carhart pants cut to shorts.
Rehband shorts
Inzer Warm Pants
Scuba shorts. Not sure if this is what they are called, but basically the bottom portion of a wet suit. Guy I competed with swears they are almost as good as rehband shorts, but cost less.

Point is, protect your hips.

that what I was figuring about the good mornings…I hate them because I suck at them…I suck at them because something is weak…the solution has to be to stop sucking at them .so yeah , I will be sticking with them. the first week of a cycle is usually pretty light , and then I’ll add weight the next couple weeks . hopefully each cycle the weights go up 5 lbs or so .

thanks for the tip on the briefs/loose suit; I’ll try that when I get back to box squatting .

Threewhites…it sounds like you’re saying that if the bar is close to rolling when I’m in the “bent over” position , I may be going too low. is that what you mean ?

I do use safety pins as a depth guide now . I un-rack like a standard squat , the bring the bar down and touch the pins…softly (never sounds like Im doing rack-pulls). maybe I need to raise the pins up 1 hole .

Yes. You want to still be partially vertical at the bottom position. If you go down to parallel, even if you don’t roll the bar, you’re gunna lose tightness because you’re no longer supporting the bar the same way.

For me, I set my belt low, and I force my hips back, back, back, until I feel like I’m getting low enough, and come up. If I start to go too low, I’ll feel the belt on my hips as a “warning”.

got it

thanks guys

edit…great thread . too bad these Westside/conjugate/whatever-the-fuck-you-wanna-call-it threads always fizzle out .

Some great thoughts here… thanks for the feedback everyone:

It’s true that you can use bench, squat, and deadlifts as your max effort exercises, and in fact, I recommend doing so some weeks. I was primarily trying to clarify the point that people often say “oh, westside/ conjugate (yea really, who cares what it’s called as long as it works, it could be called scrotie mcboogerballs for all i care), isn’t that where you max out on bench, squat, and deadlift every week,” when this totally isn’t the case.

As Louie Simmons puts it, you can read a textbook over and over again, and memorize it word for word, but you will only gain so much knowledge. In order to gain new knowledge, you need to read other books.

As for the box squats, I have had some great carryover in my squat and deadlift. In order to up your squat with it, you need to make sure you are using a box that is at or below where you usually squat. I am in the unfortunate case that my gym doesn’t really have much I can use as a box, so I stack 4 of the rubber 45 pound plates that are a few inches thick like this, Contact Support.

I’m not quite sure how high “the box” is, but I’m 6’2, and when I stand next to it, it grazes the upper-middle of my calf, and when I squat down to it, I’m a good few inches below parallel. Now, in order to get stronger, you need to A) lift more weight on the same height box, or B) lift a heavy weight, and decrease the height of the box each time.

I’ve heard of people who box squat the same weight on the same box, and wonder why they don’t get any stronger on free squats. Whereas, I have seen my max box squats increaseing almost in proportion with my free squat.

It is my understanding that equipped squats involve more posterior chain, while raw squats are more about quad strength. That said, I have found that you should keep your stance consistent between box squatting and free squatting. And, narrower squats work the quads more, while wider squats work the posterior chain and hip flexor. Personally, my stance is wider than shoulder width, but not as wide as a power squat.

Also, are you guys always remembering to squat back, not straight down? I know a guy who free squats very deep, but he squats straight down. He was angry when he box squatted for awhile, attempting to sit back, but then went back to free squatting straight down, not feeling any carryover at first. I told him to try free squatting by thinking of sitting back, and he was able to increase the weight after this.

For good mornings, I’ve heard a good rule of thumb is to have your 1rm good morning be about 60% of your 1rm free squat. Personally, on the descent, I like to look as high as I can, without straining my neck. In the gym I go to, the slots for the racks and safety pins are numbered, and the slots are about 5 inches apart. I will take the bar off the racks at 11. For squatting, I will squat till the bar on my back is about level with 6 or 7, and for good mornings, I will go down till the bar is level with 7.

In my initial post, I forgot to mention one thing… This program is very effective for upping your olympic lifts. The programs my coaches have given me often require these, and I generally dislike olympic lifts, yet I want to become more explosive. Well, I recently set very respectable PRs on my power clean and snatch, and I hadn’t attempted a single rep in training since last year.

peace

the link’s not working, its on that site somewhere tho…

…just one question…when will you know when to start changing me movement more often than the three weeks you start with

[quote]zombiec wrote:
…just one question…when will you know when to start changing me movement more often than the three weeks you start with[/quote]

When 3 weeks stops working well.

If you’re a beginner to intermediate lifter, then you shouldn’t max on a variation you’ve never done. Try it as an accessory 2-3 times before you use it for max effort. That’ll let you learn the movement and get a realistic idea of what your goal should be. Too often people try something completely new and either:

  1. Max below their potential because the movement is unfamiliar
  2. Take too many small jumps and are tired before they reach a max
  3. Take too big of jumps and don’t get any real volume or training effect

Beginners can keep the same accessory exercise, sets, and reps for 3 weeks. The more experience you get the more you need to vary the accessory lifts as well. After your ME movement, you should hit another barbell movement for sets of 5. If you feel good, go for a 5RM PR. If you don’t feel good, then do 3x5 with a weight that’s challenging.

Personally, my current template looks like:

Sunday:
DE squats for 8-12 sets of 2 with bands or chains
Alternate rack pulls and speed pulls by week
Front squats for sets of 10
Sled or other GPP (This is where I use farmer’s walk, Powerpohl, box jumps, or some combination of them)
Abs

Tuesday:
ME bench (rotation of a lower end movement, mid-range movement, and lockout movement)
4/5-bd for sets of 5 (sometimes rolling DB extensions)
Barbell rows for sets of 5-8
Panora press for sets of 15-20

Thursday;
ME squat, dead, or GM (only go for 3 or 5 RM if it’s a GM)
Squat, dead, or GM for sets of 5
Narrow stance squats for 3 x 5-8
GHR for sets of 8
Sled sometimes

Saturday:
DE bench vs bands or chains
Floor press or overhead press for sets of 10
Dumbbell rows rows sets of 10+
Dumbbell bench for 2 x 15
Panora press sets of 20-25
H-roll sets of 10

[quote]whitestpimpuknow wrote:

For good mornings, I’ve heard a good rule of thumb is to have your 1rm good morning be about 60% of your 1rm free squat. Personally, on the descent, I like to look as high as I can, without straining my neck. In the gym I go to, the slots for the racks and safety pins are numbered, and the slots are about 5 inches apart. I will take the bar off the racks at 11. For squatting, I will squat till the bar on my back is about level with 6 or 7, and for good mornings, I will go down till the bar is level with 7.
[/quote]

IMO, if you are only doing good mornings with 60% of your squat, you’re doing something wrong. Further, Louie recommends only doing a 3RM or 5RM for ME good mornings, and after going pretty heavy with them, I can see why (form would break down with a heavy single, wouldn’t get as much out of it).

Also sounds like you may be going down too far or bending your knees too much on the Good Mornings. If you are bringing the bar almost to the same point as when you squat, that doesn’t seem right.

…well as a begginer using a few cycles of ME i finally hit an 275 bench…wich is huge for me… it works…

so i have a question…training using conjugate periodization…how often do you deload ???

and a little something something on the recovery issue…

when I first started lifting , I lifted 3 a week … bench / squat & deadlift / bench asssistance. thats how the guys I lifted with did it , so thats how I learned . when I had to start lifting alone , I stuck with that scheme , and even after I started studying and applying Westside principals , I stuck with ME bench / ME squat / RE bench . never did I squat more than once a week . and my lower body recovery absolutely SUCKED…only I didnt know that it sucked ; I thought thats just the way it was . so I just assumed that to go to 4 a week was completely out of the question for a long time .

I finally tried it winter of 08/09 ; it didnt go well , but I did notice that my hams/glutes werent screaming as bad . so this past winter (09/10) , I tried it again , but this time a little more prepared for it . so for the most part , I’ve been on the 4 a week template since January , and my lower body recovery is frikkin’ fantastic . hamstring/glute/groin pain was less than half of what it was . I have since begun learning to foam roll , which helps even more . I do however , cut back on the assistance compared to what most template articles advise ; but I could give a fuck . I’m just stoked that I’ve been able to keep up the 4 a weeks . and I’m pretty sure my strength is progressing faster . and yes …I’ve gained some weight . it has run me down a bit though . during the winter , that didnt bother me ; but now it’s starting to bother me .

funny thing is , the plan was to go back to 3 a week as soon as the weather started getting nice , assuming I wouldnt be able to keep it up much longer any way . but now I’m terrified to NOT be hitting the lower body twice a week ! so I’m gonna flip the days a bit , hitting the ME days early in the week , and DE days later in the week . best of both worlds …I stick to 4 a week , and Im not depleted every saturday and or sunday .

[quote]zombiec wrote:
…well as a begginer using a few cycles of ME i finally hit an 275 bench…wich is huge for me… it works…

so i have a question…training using conjugate periodization…how often do you deload ???[/quote]

Deloads…this could be a thread all it’s own !

I think this is a topic that I have much to learn about

Deload when you need to. For me, it’s usually week 4, but it’ll depend on how hard you are training and what you’re doing.

If you have to ask if you need to deload, then you don’t need to deload.

If you’re a beginner, then you probably don’t need to deload very often. You don’t have enough neural efficiency to wear our your CNS. Once you get more advanced then deload every 4th week.

I used to just do 3x5 or 5x5 with 50% of my max and go lighter on accessories. Now I stay away from barbell movements and just do light accessories. As you get stronger, you need more of a deload.

YODALERT

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
If you’re a beginner, then you probably don’t need to deload very often. You don’t have enough neural efficiency to wear our your CNS. Once you get more advanced then deload every 4th week.

I used to just do 3x5 or 5x5 with 50% of my max and go lighter on accessories. Now I stay away from barbell movements and just do light accessories. As you get stronger, you need more of a deload.[/quote]

thanls i just than to get that 275 bench ive been training like 4 months not stop…very few light days…
and the in the past 6 weeks ive missed the third lift in two me movement …so dont know if i need a deload or just start changing me movements more often…
however put +40 pounds in my bench this year…

[quote]zombiec wrote:

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
If you’re a beginner, then you probably don’t need to deload very often. You don’t have enough neural efficiency to wear our your CNS. Once you get more advanced then deload every 4th week.

I used to just do 3x5 or 5x5 with 50% of my max and go lighter on accessories. Now I stay away from barbell movements and just do light accessories. As you get stronger, you need more of a deload.[/quote]

thanls i just than to get that 275 bench ive been training like 4 months not stop…very few light days…
and the in the past 6 weeks ive missed the third lift in two me movement …so dont know if i need a deload or just start changing me movements more often…
however put +40 pounds in my bench this year…[/quote]

Sounds to me like you should just start switching ME exercises more often. It’s been my experience that early on in the program, you will make about about 10-15 pound jumps each week, and be able to stick with the 3 weeks for each exercise. But, as you get stronger, you will begin to only be breaking your ME record by 5 pounds, and you will need to switch the movements more often.

Another thing you may wanna consider is testing your bench, squat, and deadlift, and possibly video taping it, or having a coach, trainer, or other experienced person look at it (or you could even upload videos and post em on hter), and tell you where your “sticking points” (which are where the speed of the bar slows down on your lifts, and often leads to the bar “sticking” and you missing the lift). I say this, because you’re old weak points may now be stronger, and you may have other weak points now, hence you may wana remove some exercises from your “rotation” and replace them with some new ones.

hope this helps.

[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:

Tuesday:
ME bench (rotation of a lower end movement, mid-range movement, and lockout movement)
4/5-bd for sets of 5 (sometimes rolling DB extensions)
Barbell rows for sets of 5-8
Panora press for sets of 15-20

[/quote]

What are some good lower and mid-range movements for Bench? Most of the variations I can think of are more for the upper/lockout part.