[quote]jimmyjames wrote:
Lots of good info, Yoda. In a few weeks I’ll start posting my training log.
Lift strong[/quote]
You should come over to the oly thread. It’s lonely over there. Would be good to have another regular poster, especially one with decent numbers.
this thread is Hawt.
I love how we can get along and proceed with a balanced discourse.
What I love most is Jimmy’s actual schedule. Reminds me of mine during the first year of university. had tons of time for doubles.
Too bad I was such a fabulous clown pussy and did mostly shitty lifts. If only I’d have squatted.
Shit.
-chris
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/science_of_winning.htm
"“What upsets me is that the method of training used by an overwhelming number
of weightlifters, in spite of the amazing growth in records, is still at the
same point it was in the fifties. For example, you want to improve your
technique on the snatch - you practise the snatch; the jerk – you practice
the jerk. I tell them to correct their mistakes differently – to strengthen
separate groups of muscles. A simple example: an athlete is having trouble
with the snatch. They advise him to start differently, to change his grip on
the barbell – wider or narrower. But it turns out that it’s enough to build
up a group of muscles which ‘do the trick’ with the maximum effort and he
gets better results …”
[quote]iceman187 wrote:
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/science_of_winning.htm
"“What upsets me is that the method of training used by an overwhelming number
of weightlifters, in spite of the amazing growth in records, is still at the
same point it was in the fifties. For example, you want to improve your
technique on the snatch - you practise the snatch; the jerk – you practice
the jerk. I tell them to correct their mistakes differently – to strengthen
separate groups of muscles. A simple example: an athlete is having trouble
with the snatch. They advise him to start differently, to change his grip on
the barbell – wider or narrower. But it turns out that it’s enough to build
up a group of muscles which ‘do the trick’ with the maximum effort and he
gets better results …”[/quote]
how the chinese roll.
That’s why i dont miss my assistance shit if at all possible. Gotta have your block-up days every-so-often.
-chris
[quote]iceman187 wrote:
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/science_of_winning.htm
"“What upsets me is that the method of training used by an overwhelming number
of weightlifters, in spite of the amazing growth in records, is still at the
same point it was in the fifties. For example, you want to improve your
technique on the snatch - you practise the snatch; the jerk – you practice
the jerk. I tell them to correct their mistakes differently – to strengthen
separate groups of muscles. A simple example: an athlete is having trouble
with the snatch. They advise him to start differently, to change his grip on
the barbell – wider or narrower. But it turns out that it’s enough to build
up a group of muscles which ‘do the trick’ with the maximum effort and he
gets better results …”[/quote]
Hold up… he’s upset that they’re still training the way they’re training, even tho the records are going up???
Just something to consider from someone whos been there and done that, he found what worked for him and look at the results he got.
Wow, this is a fantastic thread!
Does anyone know how the belarus athletes like rybakou and aramnau train?
That coach seems to know his stuff.
That’s a good question…I really don’t know, but I had a conversation with Glenn Pendlay on the Crossfit forum the other day that was pretty cool. He posted a vid of and 18-year-old kid he has (Caleb Ward) cleaning 195kg pretty easily, so I asked some questions. Posted below (FRAT warning).
Me: Glenn,
From the three workouts in a day, and near-max lifting each session, I would assume that he is following some sort of Abadjiev-inspired programming. Is this accurate? How long did it take him to build up to this level of intensity and volume, and did he always train in this style, or have you experimented with other “systems”?
Glenn: Ben,
When Caleb started he was 12 years old. He trained 2-3 times per week. Once he was past the stage of learning basic form on the lifts, most workouts were 10-20 snatches, followed by 10-20 clean and jerks, followed by squats or some other strength exercise. On the snatches and clean/jerks, we usually started with a light or medium weight, and got at least 10 lifts with good form and speed, and if that was successful we gradually increased the weight over the last 10 lifts. On an off day, he might have never got over 80%, on a good day he might have made a new PR on his 20th lift. We usually did the lifts pretty quickly, taking around 20 minutes, and never more than 30, to complete 20 lifts. He didnt always do 20, sometimes it was 10 and 10, sometimes 15 and 10, sometimes 20 and 15 (referring to snatch and clean and jerk respectively), you get the picture.
On squats Caleb did a lot of 5 sets of 5 on the back squat when he was young, a lot of 3 sets of 3 on the front squat, and a few overhead squats… not as many overhead squats as other lifters i have coached, because he was naturally good at this position luckily we didnt have to spend that much time working it.
Gradually over time we went from 2-3 workouts to 3 workouts every week, and started including workouts where he went straight up to a max or near max, then dropped the weight for one or two doubles. Caleb was also one of the original group of guys using what is now called the “Texas method” in the squat, or 5 sets of 5 on monday, lighter on wednesday, and a max set on Friday. We didnt do it exactly like that, I was still experimenting around with it at that time, but the idea was the same.
As years passed, Caleb went slowly to the majority of his workouts consisting of going to a max or near max effort on the snatch and clean and jerk, then backing off to lighter doubles in each lift, and higher volume squatting being replaced by max singles and doubles done on a frequent basis. We also added 2-3 “lighter” workouts to the week in addition to the 3 main heavy days, those consisted of remedial work like muscle snatch, push press or military press, bent rows, and the power versions of the lifts.
Over the last 18 months, the lighter workouts have had the remedial things like presses and rows dropped, and the powersnatch and powercleans have gone up to the point where he is doing maximal efforts on these even though we still call them light days, simply because not as much weight is being lifted and no squatting is done. Morning workouts have been added to the heavy days which have a variable intensity, if sore and stiff from the day before, they can be light, just a way to loosen up (by light I mean something on the order of 120kg snatch and 150kg clean and jerk) or if he feels good they can be fairly heavy. We have also started to include 2 squat workouts per day, and started throwing in a third workout on some heavy days.
Now, nothing was as smooth as this sounds, I am condensing 6 years of training here, and there were twists and turns and sometimes reversion back to methods used earlier for a while, and also some failed experiments with slightly different ways of doing things.
But in general, his training has gone in a fairly steady fashion from higher amounts of lifts per workout with usually more medium weights to less lifts with maximal or near maximal weights, from fewer workouts per week to more workouts per week, and from a more varied program with various strength exercises including things like pressing and rowing to strength work that is over 90% front squatting, an exercise very specific to weightlifting.
If we had it to do over again, i dont think we would change much. I guess this is a long way to answer a simple question, the short way would be to say that no he didnt always train this way, it took about 6 years to get him where he is today.
And one more thing… this IS what many call the “bulgarian program” and is associated with Abadjiev. But I wouldnt call it inspired by him… Pete George and his brother were doing similar things here in the USA 20 years before the Bulgarians did them, and Joe Mills used a lot of the same ideas here in the USA in the 1960’s, again, before Abadjiev ever got the chance to coach the Bulgarian national team. And about a year ago I got the chance to sit down for dinner with Abadjiev and the first world champion he ever coached, Alexander Kraichev (world champ at 110kg in 1971, silver medalist at the 1972 Olympics) and found that he freely admits to “borrowing” ideas from American athletes, both in weightlifting and other sports.
So, calling it the “Bulgarian” program is, IMO, kind of a disservice to the Americans who went down the road first… maybe they didnt go quite as far down the road, but they certainly were on it first.
glenn
Me: Very, very cool. When Caleb began showing long-term promise, did you begin to orient his training toward this end (i.e. high frequency, high intensity, high specificity), or was it a more organic process, and this simply turned out to be the result of seeking higher performance?
What is your opinion of the “Russian” and “Chinese” systems (in quotes, as I realize there isn’t really a centralized system), which, as far as I know, utilize a more volumetric approach and more assistive training? Do you feel that at some point, most high-level lifters converge upon Caleb’s type of training, as it is most specific to the sport?
Glenn: Ben,
I cant say I really had what he does in mind specifically when he started training. I continue to grow and learn as a coach as the years go by, and I have been coaching Caleb for 6 years. I can say that as early as 1999/2000 I believed that for elite lifters the very specific approach would in the end prove to be the best. different lifters I have coached have taken various roads and various amounts of time to get there, but if they stick around long enough, they all get there.
With Caleb, I had the sort of ideal situation that most coaches rarely or never get. For one, he started young (age 12) with no bad habits to overcome. another thing is that he never did any other sports, so there was no, say, football coach to fight with about training. Another is that Caleb is mature, focused, and coachable. So he has always done what I wanted him to do, some discussion but no argueing.
Russian and Chinese programs obviously work. Just look at their lifters. But I think that a lot of their lifters do at least a portion of the years training very similar to what Caleb does, or the “bulgarian” method. This opinion comes from talking to their coaches and athletes. Many admit to following a “bulgarian” program quite a bit of the time, no matter what is written about them.
My personal belief is that the drug issue does have something to do with training. I am not accusing anyone or any country, that is counterproductive, but we all have brains and to discount the issue would be to not use our brains. My feeling is that it is hard to recover for a drug-free athlete, so that everything they do must be as effecient as possible, maximal training effect for whatever effort is put forth. I dont think there is any more effecient training than maximal effort competitive lifts.
By the way, Caleb clean and jerked 191kg, and cleaned 200kg but missed the jerk this last weekend at the Texas State Championships. The 200kg clean was a pretty good clean. Its on youtube.
glenn
bump for anyone who hasn’t seen this.
IMO this deserves a sticky
Can anyone give a sample training program for this style of training? I would greatly appreciate it.
Which style?
[quote]Sneaky weasel wrote:
Which style?[/quote]
russian olympic lifting.
Buy A Program of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting. It lays out every single workout for the training of an athlete for the first 6 years. Its companion book, A System of Multi-Year Training, explains (sort of) how they laid out the workouts. I’ve never found a more comprehensive training plan.
But again, there’s the problem of the first few years of lifting lacking specific prescriptions for loading. I feel like that would make it very hard for a total beginner to attempt to follow the program and succeed.
For a total beginner it’s basically just 4-8 sets of 3-6 reps for everything. The first programs are for 12 year olds who’ve never touched a weight as it is.
The loading is based on bodyweight (snatch 40-50% bodyweight, C&J 10-15kg heavier, squats same or 10-20kg heavier). Everything is 4-8 sets of 3-8 reps. If you’ve been working out you can probably skip the first two years and go straight to the planned loading of year 3.
A total beginner will have a lot of trouble because of technique anyway, which is what the first 4 years of training are focused on.
What do you mean total beginner? Someone who’s never lifted anything and doesn’t have a coach? Honestly, that person is not gonna make it anyway. Or do you mean someone who’s new to weightlifting but not necessarily lifting in general? You need the technique coaching but once you have that then you can skip to year 3 most likely and do it twice.
I see. That makes a lot of sense. Not a program for the impatient, though.