Wendler's 5/3/1 Program - Part 5

Training Powerlifting
361

[quote]moshcamp wrote:
Anyone try increading the set monthly increments above what’s recommended? Instead of 5 for upper and 10 for lower, anyone try 10 for uppr and 20 for lower?

[/quote]
For a true beginner trainee, the following is acceptable: 20 lb increase, deadlift only, 4 cycles or until the weight catches up to the soaring gains in strength.

That is from firsthand experience. When I started 5/3/1 as a beginner trainee, my strength skyrocketed for about the first four or five months, which is typical of a pure beginner. I was hitting 15 reps on my 95% set for the first couple cycles. By adding 20 lbs to my training max instead of 10, the weight caught up to my strength gains after about the first five cycles and I was getting 6-8 reps on that 95% set, which is much more reasonable. Then I followed the program’s protocol of 10 lb increases.

Looking at my journal, I noticed that I used 10 lb increases with bench press for the first few cycles, then dropped to 5 as the program states.

As mikral described, if someone was returning from a layoff, one could start cautiously light and add more than the 5 & 10 lb increments for a couple of cycles in order to figure out where they are, but then one should return to following the program as it is written.

362

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

[quote]DeadKong wrote:

[quote]dlp wrote:

An important point most people miss is that you are neither limited by or forced to do the 5/10 pound increases. For instance if first cycle you squat 300x 10 on the 5 day and second cycle you add 10 to max and do 307 x 13 you’ve likely improved your max by more than the 10 pound!
[/quote]

this is something I have been wondering approximately myself. I just am finishing my first cycle after some time off lifting. (a few weeks off). I am going on muscle memory so I amended max weights for calculating purposes throughout this first cycle. Now that i am just about to deload, I was thinking of using 3rd week achievement to calculate maxes for the next cycle. Then likely keep it at that for the whole cycle since I have already come back to lifting after the short layoff. Does anyone think this is reasonable?

Edit: oh, and I am keeping a journal in over 35 lifter, Wendler starts about haflway through the journal.[/quote]

I think the point dlp is making here isn’t to jump ahead in weights. You can progress more than the 5/10 pounds increases allow, but consider that you have another trick up your sleeve: the rep. It’s the story of the Kroc row. Matt couldn’t put more weight on the dumbbell, so he just went for rep PRs. I feel like this is part of the 5/3/1 philosophy, at least my perspective on it. Eventually, the weights will just get too heavy for you and you’ll reset anyway. Until then, just ride it out.[/quote]

Nice avatar. Please and thanks ahead and behind to respondents.

The problem I have run into with 5/3/1 is exemplified by let’s say squats. Here is the second last page of my current journal if anyone has time.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_senior/deadkongs_latest_journal?id=4659878&pageNo=4

cycle 1 week 1 I have 215lbs X 10 (5 rep minimum) week 2 230 X 9 (3 reps minimum) and week 3 255lbs X 7 (1 rep minimum). I kept thinking I was ridiculously lowballing it. I thought muscle memory after time off justified it.

cycle 2 week 1 [last week] I ambitiously went for 240lbs but only got 7, like I did before deload with 255lbs. I am regressing, and I wonder how I should fix it at this point, I squat tomorrow morning.

Maybe go for 240lbs again, as it is 10lbs above last cycle’s week 2? And see if I can get 9 or 10? (the minimum is of course 3 reps)

363

What was your training max in the first cycle, and what is your current training max?

Jumping from 215 to 240 looks like a big change, maybe you tried to add too much. You were doing 5 reps at 210 vs 3 reps at 205 (cycle 1 week 2) as your 2nd set so it is natural that you are more fatigued?

364

[quote]booneyx wrote:
What was your training max in the first cycle, and what is your current training max?

Jumping from 215 to 240 looks like a big change, maybe you tried to add too much. You were doing 5 reps at 210 vs 3 reps at 205 (cycle 1 week 2) as your 2nd set so it is natural that you are more fatigued?[/quote]

I actually didn’t calculate a max to start. I based it originally off of 75% of my deadlift max. that at the time was 360lbs, so 270lbs. I didn’t want to fatigue my hamstring a lot on test day, nor did I want to draw out the test period. I realized through the first cycle I could out achieve that so I was calling week 3 achievement about 310lbs (255lbs X 7 reps). this was for calculating the second cycle. the first 2 sets of any day aren’t I didn’t think a big deal.

Well, the last I could call a max is 240lbs X 7 so 288lbs.

365

[quote]DeadKong wrote:

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

[quote]DeadKong wrote:

[quote]dlp wrote:

An important point most people miss is that you are neither limited by or forced to do the 5/10 pound increases. For instance if first cycle you squat 300x 10 on the 5 day and second cycle you add 10 to max and do 307 x 13 you’ve likely improved your max by more than the 10 pound!
[/quote]

this is something I have been wondering approximately myself. I just am finishing my first cycle after some time off lifting. (a few weeks off). I am going on muscle memory so I amended max weights for calculating purposes throughout this first cycle. Now that i am just about to deload, I was thinking of using 3rd week achievement to calculate maxes for the next cycle. Then likely keep it at that for the whole cycle since I have already come back to lifting after the short layoff. Does anyone think this is reasonable?

Edit: oh, and I am keeping a journal in over 35 lifter, Wendler starts about haflway through the journal.[/quote]

I think the point dlp is making here isn’t to jump ahead in weights. You can progress more than the 5/10 pounds increases allow, but consider that you have another trick up your sleeve: the rep. It’s the story of the Kroc row. Matt couldn’t put more weight on the dumbbell, so he just went for rep PRs. I feel like this is part of the 5/3/1 philosophy, at least my perspective on it. Eventually, the weights will just get too heavy for you and you’ll reset anyway. Until then, just ride it out.[/quote]

Nice avatar. Please and thanks ahead and behind to respondents.

The problem I have run into with 5/3/1 is exemplified by let’s say squats. Here is the second last page of my current journal if anyone has time.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_senior/deadkongs_latest_journal?id=4659878&pageNo=4

cycle 1 week 1 I have 215lbs X 10 (5 rep minimum) week 2 230 X 9 (3 reps minimum) and week 3 255lbs X 7 (1 rep minimum). I kept thinking I was ridiculously lowballing it. I thought muscle memory after time off justified it.

cycle 2 week 1 [last week] I ambitiously went for 240lbs but only got 7, like I did before deload with 255lbs. I am regressing, and I wonder how I should fix it at this point, I squat tomorrow morning.

Maybe go for 240lbs again, as it is 10lbs above last cycle’s week 2? And see if I can get 9 or 10? (the minimum is of course 3 reps)
[/quote]

You jumped from a 255 training max to a 280 training max from cycle 1 to cycle 2. I would recommend you to do your current cycle based on a 265 training max, so that means your 3-day tomorrow would be 240 again. I say to do this because starting low is good. Using the training max you should’ve been using (265) gives you more time before you start using weights close to your true 1RM. Cycle 3 means a 275 training max. I don’t try to jump weights up because I’ve found out I can gain strength while not using near-max weights. You don’t need to be as psyched up for a set of 8 as you do with a set of 2. It’s mentally stressful to have to be that amped for every gym workout. I get worn out if I am going heavy all the time. On another note, you don’t have to break a PR every single workout. It’s feels awesome to do so but sometimes you need to ease off the gas. If you can hit all 12 PR’s every month, great. If you only hit 9, you still hit 9 fucking PRs. Remember, you’re gonna have more chances at it later. It’s about sustainability, the long haul.

366

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

You jumped from a 255 training max to a 280 training max from cycle 1 to cycle 2. I would recommend you to do your current cycle based on a 265 training max, so that means your 3-day tomorrow would be 240 again. I say to do this because starting low is good. Using the training max you should’ve been using (265) gives you more time before you start using weights close to your true 1RM. Cycle 3 means a 275 training max. I don’t try to jump weights up because I’ve found out I can gain strength while not using near-max weights. You don’t need to be as psyched up for a set of 8 as you do with a set of 2. It’s mentally stressful to have to be that amped for every gym workout. I get worn out if I am going heavy all the time. On another note, you don’t have to break a PR every single workout. It’s feels awesome to do so but sometimes you need to ease off the gas. If you can hit all 12 PR’s every month, great. If you only hit 9, you still hit 9 fucking PRs. Remember, you’re gonna have more chances at it later. It’s about sustainability, the long haul. [/quote]

^This

Getting 10, 9 and 7 reps on your 5+, 3+ and 1+ sets on your first cycle is normal

If you feel like you aren’t working with heavy enough weights, add a set on top of 5/3/1, don’t mess with the training max. For example with a 265 training max, on your 3s week, do 185x3, 210x3, 240x3(not 3+), 265x3. This is pretty much literally what I did today on squats, percentage-wise.

It’s not illegal to work with weights at or above your Tmax.

367

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

You jumped from a 255 training max to a 280 training max from cycle 1 to cycle 2. I would recommend you to do your current cycle based on a 265 training max, so that means your 3-day tomorrow would be 240 again. I say to do this because starting low is good. Using the training max you should’ve been using (265) gives you more time before you start using weights close to your true 1RM. Cycle 3 means a 275 training max. I don’t try to jump weights up because I’ve found out I can gain strength while not using near-max weights. You don’t need to be as psyched up for a set of 8 as you do with a set of 2. It’s mentally stressful to have to be that amped for every gym workout. I get worn out if I am going heavy all the time. On another note, you don’t have to break a PR every single workout. It’s feels awesome to do so but sometimes you need to ease off the gas. If you can hit all 12 PR’s every month, great. If you only hit 9, you still hit 9 fucking PRs. Remember, you’re gonna have more chances at it later. It’s about sustainability, the long haul. [/quote]

^This

Getting 10, 9 and 7 reps on your 5+, 3+ and 1+ sets on your first cycle is normal

If you feel like you aren’t working with heavy enough weights, add a set on top of 5/3/1, don’t mess with the training max. For example with a 265 training max, on your 3s week, do 185x3, 210x3, 240x3(not 3+), 265x3. This is pretty much literally what I did today on squats, percentage-wise.

It’s not illegal to work with weights at or above your Tmax.
[/quote]

Or you could just do the program as written and realize that this is the way it is supposed to be.

368

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]TisDrew wrote:

You jumped from a 255 training max to a 280 training max from cycle 1 to cycle 2. I would recommend you to do your current cycle based on a 265 training max, so that means your 3-day tomorrow would be 240 again. I say to do this because starting low is good. Using the training max you should’ve been using (265) gives you more time before you start using weights close to your true 1RM. Cycle 3 means a 275 training max. I don’t try to jump weights up because I’ve found out I can gain strength while not using near-max weights. You don’t need to be as psyched up for a set of 8 as you do with a set of 2. It’s mentally stressful to have to be that amped for every gym workout. I get worn out if I am going heavy all the time. On another note, you don’t have to break a PR every single workout. It’s feels awesome to do so but sometimes you need to ease off the gas. If you can hit all 12 PR’s every month, great. If you only hit 9, you still hit 9 fucking PRs. Remember, you’re gonna have more chances at it later. It’s about sustainability, the long haul. [/quote]

^This

Getting 10, 9 and 7 reps on your 5+, 3+ and 1+ sets on your first cycle is normal

If you feel like you aren’t working with heavy enough weights, add a set on top of 5/3/1, don’t mess with the training max. For example with a 265 training max, on your 3s week, do 185x3, 210x3, 240x3(not 3+), 265x3. This is pretty much literally what I did today on squats, percentage-wise.

It’s not illegal to work with weights at or above your Tmax.
[/quote]

Or you could just do the program as written and realize that this is the way it is supposed to be.[/quote]

Yep. My example is in fact as written, in the 5/3/1 for PL book.

And since that’s mentioned, I gotta say, I like the 3+/5+/1+ week order instead of the original 5+/3+/1+

369

I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for the past year now and have gained a good amount of strength while doing this program. I know that Jim said that if you retest your max and it’s higher than your training max, don’t reset and just stay the course and keep going. But what if my actual max is lower than my training max (this is pretty much how it is for all my main lifts currently, I just tested my max the end of last year).

For example, my training max for deadlift is currently 525 this cycle, and last cycle I was able to get 475 for 7 reps (touch and go, no belt, w/straps) which equates to an estimated max of 585. But when I actually tested my max, I was only able to get 495 (no straps/belt). I just recently switched to doing 5/3/1 for powerlifting so that I can throw in some singles. I’m just a little frustrated at the fact that I can rep out 475, but I continuously struggle to get over the 495 mark. Should I just reset and go lighter for the required reps and throw in the heavy singles or just keep going with my current training max.

370

I just want to say that, after a long while I have come back to 5/3/1 for squats and deads, with BBB for squats and OHP variations too. And its awesome.

371

[quote]NS wrote:
I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for the past year now and have gained a good amount of strength while doing this program. I know that Jim said that if you retest your max and it’s higher than your training max, don’t reset and just stay the course and keep going. But what if my actual max is lower than my training max (this is pretty much how it is for all my main lifts currently, I just tested my max the end of last year).

For example, my training max for deadlift is currently 525 this cycle, and last cycle I was able to get 475 for 7 reps (touch and go, no belt, w/straps) which equates to an estimated max of 585. But when I actually tested my max, I was only able to get 495 (no straps/belt). I just recently switched to doing 5/3/1 for powerlifting so that I can throw in some singles. I’m just a little frustrated at the fact that I can rep out 475, but I continuously struggle to get over the 495 mark. Should I just reset and go lighter for the required reps and throw in the heavy singles or just keep going with my current training max.[/quote]

Sounds like a form/mental block issue. I’d post a vid in a new thread and let some of the more experienced guys comment.

Also what works for me in those situations is to try different weights. Rep out 480-485-490, if you can get 475 for 7 there should be no question you can get 480 at least a few times, once you get 480 a few times, you should be able to at least single 485, and so on. Or say to hell with it and try 500+, this worked for me on my last 2RM in bench (missed 355x2 a few times and got 360x2 easily)

372

[quote]NS wrote:
I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for the past year now and have gained a good amount of strength while doing this program. I know that Jim said that if you retest your max and it’s higher than your training max, don’t reset and just stay the course and keep going. But what if my actual max is lower than my training max (this is pretty much how it is for all my main lifts currently, I just tested my max the end of last year).

For example, my training max for deadlift is currently 525 this cycle, and last cycle I was able to get 475 for 7 reps (touch and go, no belt, w/straps) which equates to an estimated max of 585. But when I actually tested my max, I was only able to get 495 (no straps/belt). I just recently switched to doing 5/3/1 for powerlifting so that I can throw in some singles. I’m just a little frustrated at the fact that I can rep out 475, but I continuously struggle to get over the 495 mark. Should I just reset and go lighter for the required reps and throw in the heavy singles or just keep going with my current training max.[/quote]

Take off the straps and reset each rep, it should help.

373

Anybody here do 5/3/1 for Barbell Rows? I just read the 2nd edition and really like the one big assistance lift with the weight progression for each set but I also like doing DB Rows. Would it be too redundant to do,

5/3/1: Barbell Rows
One Big Assistance Lift: Barbell Rows 10/6/5 format (don’t have the book in front of me but I think that was the weekly progression)
DB Rows 5 x 10
Chin-ups 5 x 10

374

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
Anybody here do 5/3/1 for Barbell Rows? I just read the 2nd edition and really like the one big assistance lift with the weight progression for each set but I also like doing DB Rows. Would it be too redundant to do,

5/3/1: Barbell Rows
One Big Assistance Lift: Barbell Rows 10/6/5 format (don’t have the book in front of me but I think that was the weekly progression)
DB Rows 5 x 10
Chin-ups 5 x 10[/quote]

Wendler said he’s done this I believe. I’ve heard of others doing it as well, so you should be good to go.

375

just finished my 1st cycle this month.1rm’s went thru the roof as expected but i know i’ll soon platue for a bit.i’ve been sick these last 2wks so it’s messing with my workouts a bit.as for the Kroc row question i do them on chest day.my flat b.b. bench-5/3/1;5x10 smith mach incline;3x12-15 Kroc rows cause we only have d.b’s that go to 120.getting an olympic db soon.i’ve always had problems with even reg db rows due to nerve damage in my right arm/hand but since starting the Kroc rows everyone has said my whole upper body has just expanded so i know they’re working.after this 2nd cycle is over i may jusy go to bbb and one 5x5/5x10 acessory movement cause i’m actually losing too much weight yet the same time my b/f% is dropping and i’m outgrowing my clothes so i konw it’s gotta be working.really wanna see how he incorporates a rp set in there somewhere…

376

i would like to start learning/using sumo deadlift in my training as i think it may be superior technique for me and just for fun. I wonder where to put it if i pull conventional 531…i have been thinking about something like this :

deadlift conv.531
front squat
hyperextensions
leg rises

squat 531
sumo deadlift 3x5 (across/after gettin used to it, mayby ramping sets max 80%-85% procent of training max of conv?
good mornings 3x15
abs

any ideas? i ve never pulled sumo before .

377

[quote]Swashblucker wrote:
i would like to start learning/using sumo deadlift in my training as i think it may be superior technique for me and just for fun. I wonder where to put it if i pull conventional 531…i have been thinking about something like this :

deadlift conv.531
front squat
hyperextensions
leg rises

squat 531
sumo deadlift 3x5 (across/after gettin used to it, mayby ramping sets max 80%-85% procent of training max of conv?
good mornings 3x15
abs

any ideas? i ve never pulled sumo before .[/quote]

You want to use it as an Accessory movement rather than a main movement then? I guess you could do it on DL Day and do it as the Big Accessory movement that John lays out in the 2nd edition.

378

[quote]Swashblucker wrote:
i would like to start learning/using sumo deadlift in my training as i think it may be superior technique for me and just for fun. I wonder where to put it if i pull conventional 531…i have been thinking about something like this :

deadlift conv.531
front squat
hyperextensions
leg rises

squat 531
sumo deadlift 3x5 (across/after gettin used to it, mayby ramping sets max 80%-85% procent of training max of conv?
good mornings 3x15
abs

any ideas? i ve never pulled sumo before .[/quote]

I like to use squats as assistance on my DL days, and DLs as assistance on my squat days, it’s helped me get in more volume on both in the past. I would say that whatever % of your training max that you use on your front squats would be appropriate for the sumo DLs. 85% might be a little much after 531 squats though, sumo DLs can be just as taxing as conv DLs. IMO assistance work should be closer to the 75% range for big lifts like that.
I only pull sumo, I love it! It hits the glutes much harder than conv pulls, so be ready for a sore ass until you get used to it, lol.

379

[quote]sunshne wrote:

[quote]Swashblucker wrote:
i would like to start learning/using sumo deadlift in my training as i think it may be superior technique for me and just for fun. I wonder where to put it if i pull conventional 531…i have been thinking about something like this :

deadlift conv.531
front squat
hyperextensions
leg rises

squat 531
sumo deadlift 3x5 (across/after gettin used to it, mayby ramping sets max 80%-85% procent of training max of conv?
good mornings 3x15
abs

I only pull sumo, I love it! It hits the glutes much harder than conv pulls, so be ready for a sore ass until you get used to it, lol.[/quote]
[/quote]

I’m kind of the same way. Aside from my lower back issue I like the way it hits the legs compared to the conventional.

380

I’m running 5/3/1 for pl and I’m 8 weeks out from my next comp, so I’m in pre-meet training.

My squat training max is 385 and my meet goal is 415. The other day I hit singles of 355 and 385. In the 95% week I’m supposed to hit singles with 355 and 395.
95% of my 385 training max is 365, so I’m supposed to do 290 for 5 330 for 3 and 365 for 1 then down to 355 for 1 and up to 395 for 1.

Should I really go down from 365 to 355, what’s the point of that?
My bench and deadlift percentages are like this as well.