Wendler's 5/3/1 Program - Part 3

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]harrimark wrote:
The thing that puzzles me with this program are the percentages of 1RM used. Cressey and many other strength coaches recommend that a person with long strength training experience should train mainly at intensities above 90%, if looking to increase maximal strength. Even with the 1+ set, the intensity will be around 85% of true 1RM. I’m not arguing that the program won’t work, but this contradiction concerns me. Is the intensity high enough for a guy with efficient CNS?[/quote]

This has already been said but here are some numbers to make it easier. This is for a lift that gets 10lbs added each cycle

Month 1, yes you will be doing about 85% of your 1RM
Month 3, over 90% of your 1RM for reps
Month 6, about 100% of your 1RM for reps
Month 7+, More than 100% of your 1RM for reps

This means somewhere between Month 1 and 7 your 1RM went up.

42

[quote]PHGN wrote:
Sheiko routines like 29 or 37 (didn’t mention the others because I don’t know them) don’t have very high percentages for powerlifting programs yet they are effective at increasing strength in the three power lifts.

The beauty about 5/3/1 is that you don’t have to operate at your true max and also don’t have to max out all the time to PROGRESS on your four main lifts. Plus it’s relatively easy on the joints and tendons compared to others “strength” program.

Having a well thought plan with a logical progress scheme is the key here, not going over 90% of your true max.[/quote]

Thank you for good arguments. Now I’m starting to realize the true beauty of the program. You will get to 90% eventually, it just takes a lot of time. I remember reading that it is very important to start conservatively on this program and therefore build up the intensity slowly.

I think with most programs I have used, the intensity has been too high initially. I have burned out and most of the times the gains have not been optimal. Best gains have probably occurred, when starting out easy and not building the intensity up too rapidly. With this program, you just have to be very patient and willing to do it for months. Also, the progression is very logical and easy to follow. The progression and building the intensity up slowly are IMHO reasons for the success of the program.

43

[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
Steel Nation wrote:
Just wanted to share my progress:

Military Press 205x7

Previous rep max with this weight was 3 reps.

5/3/1 - It Just Fucking Works

EDIT: This was the last MP workout of my 3rd cycle.

Dude, that’s WEAK!!..

… no Steelers visuals on your walls???

Pretty sweet lift though.
[/quote]

Yeah all the Steelers shit is in the family room.

44

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
harrimark wrote:
The thing that puzzles me with this program are the percentages of 1RM used. Cressey and many other strength coaches recommend that a person with long strength training experience should train mainly at intensities above 90%, if looking to increase maximal strength. Even with the 1+ set, the intensity will be around 85% of true 1RM. I’m not arguing that the program won’t work, but this contradiction concerns me. Is the intensity high enough for a guy with efficient CNS?

This has already been said but here are some numbers to make it easier. This is for a lift that gets 10lbs added each cycle

Month 1, yes you will be doing about 85% of your 1RM
Month 3, over 90% of your 1RM for reps
Month 6, about 100% of your 1RM for reps
Month 7+, More than 100% of your 1RM for reps

This means somewhere between Month 1 and 7 your 1RM went up.[/quote]

Good example. I played with some numbers and realized that you should probably only add 5lb to 1RMs less than 200lb unless you really think you can do upwards of 150% 1RM after 7 months.

45

Just finished bench press (3x5). Needed 10 reps for a PR but only got 6. I went back and plotted reps versus weight and compared it to the 1RM calculation. My results fall on a curve where the weight drops more rapdily as the reps go up. My press, deadlift and squat are closer to the 1RM predictions. I decided to do BBB this cycle so maybe that will help turn this around.

46

just in case there are new readers on this thread, if you want a spreadsheet that calculates your lifts etc. send me a pm that says

“I swear to god and Preach Vice that I bought Jim’s book with real fucking money”

and give me an email address that I can send it to.

47

Jim, closing out my 3rd cycle and I gotta say I really like this program. It just feels right.

I’ve gleaned enough from your articles and the forum to get the basics of the program but I still plan on buying the book. I’m looking forward to the read and buying it is a good way to say thanks. Thanks to the 5/3/1 program, I’ve got a lot of progress ahead of me this year.

And I think it’s a real good comment on your character that you hang out here and answer all of these questions on a regular basis.

Nice work.

48

[quote]harrimark wrote:
PHGN wrote:
Sheiko routines like 29 or 37 (didn’t mention the others because I don’t know them) don’t have very high percentages for powerlifting programs yet they are effective at increasing strength in the three power lifts.

The beauty about 5/3/1 is that you don’t have to operate at your true max and also don’t have to max out all the time to PROGRESS on your four main lifts. Plus it’s relatively easy on the joints and tendons compared to others “strength” program.

Having a well thought plan with a logical progress scheme is the key here, not going over 90% of your true max.

Thank you for good arguments. Now I’m starting to realize the true beauty of the program. You will get to 90% eventually, it just takes a lot of time. I remember reading that it is very important to start conservatively on this program and therefore build up the intensity slowly.

I think with most programs I have used, the intensity has been too high initially. I have burned out and most of the times the gains have not been optimal. Best gains have probably occurred, when starting out easy and not building the intensity up too rapidly. With this program, you just have to be very patient and willing to do it for months. Also, the progression is very logical and easy to follow. This and
[/quote]

good. jim makes the point that you dont need to train at max but you can get stronger with submaximal weight lifted maximally. the other strength coaches you mentioned run a specific strength phase and then back off. you can essentially not back off because you arent trying to max every week.

when i first started my max bench was 325, wide grip. i had been stuck there for 6 months. just kept pinging off that number because i didnt know how to go and systematically overload it. ive been running 5/3/1 since janury and 2 weeks ago i benched 365x3 close grip. when i started the percentages were based off 300. now they are based off 390. can i bench 390? maybe, but i sure as shit know i can bench 325; hell i smoked it for 7, close grip.

just give it time.

49

[quote]seth.ewan wrote:
Airness wrote:
ThirdUncle wrote:
Airness wrote:
Time for a new thread.

My question from the previous thread:

Can you ramp up to the final set and then perform the supposed earlier sets as ‘back off’ sets for extra volume?

What I mean:

Warmup sets
40% x5
50% x5
60% x3
70% x1 Feel set
80% x1 Feel set

Working Set
85% x5+

Back off sets
75% x5
65% x5

Because from personal experience, I don’t seem to work as well as I am able to (especially on the bench) without these ‘feel sets’.

What I did for my squat was I worked up to my 3RM and then went back down to my 85% set and that worked extremely well. I got 13 reps. Even though technically I wasn’t doing 5/3/1 then but I think what matters ultimately is that you get rep pr’s for the last set. Sure, I think the prescribed reps are important but I think if you calculate your numbers well (and even then, it’s probably not all that accurate anyway because your strength levels are different each time-- but that’s what the 90% is for so this is not my point really.)

Personally, I feel like it benefits me more if I ramp up to the last set by warming up and then doing feel sets and then ‘back off’ and do the 65% x 5 and 75% x 5 for extra volume.

I think this was answered in the previous thread, but if I’m mistaken, I’ll say now that it would probably not be recommended. Why not try using the BBB template if you feel you need more volume?

It’s actually not that I need extra volume but more so that I feel like I can bang out more reps if I do it this way as opposed to the original way.

because that is not the point. the point is to go all out on the last and final set. jim just answered this question on elitefts. its a mental block you need to get over and do the program the way he laid it out.[/quote]

Yes, I know haha because I AM the guy who asked on elitefts lol. It’s fine now. 5/3/1 is working fine.

Last week for my full squat, I got 210lbs x 13. This week for 225, I got 13 reps too (week 2). I really pushed it.

50

I think someone in the last thread wanted to see Wendler’s cleans.

51

yes! yes! awesome dude finally did it. TFEJN is one of my favorite movies too, i had no idea Pegg was the inspiration.

thanks for the vid Jim, it actually looked much less like a reverse curl than i thought it would.

52

I like to make my wife do power cleans because they make her boobs shake, and watching boob flesh jiggle is really, really awesome. So that is how I judge power clean form. If there are titties shaking, good. No titties shaking, bad.

Sorry Jim, but your form is seriously lacking in the titty shaking department.

53

better than mine. heavier too.

54

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
I like to make my wife do power cleans because they make her boobs shake, and watching boob flesh jiggle is really, really awesome. So that is how I judge power clean form. If there are titties shaking, good. No titties shaking, bad.

Sorry Jim, but your form is seriously lacking in the titty shaking department.[/quote]

Didn’t think I would see a reference to titties here but you managed to do it and one could argue that it wasn’t off-topic ;).

55

Hey, all. Long post, so thanks in advance for braving it!

First of all, thanks to everyone who contributes to these threads. I can’t even remember all the people who’ve given me good advice in this forum, and the bodybuilding one (CC in particular) on making 5-3-1 work for me.

In the past 3 months, I’ve been making great progress on the program. I estimate my deadlift 1RM went up by over 40 lbs, and is now around 400 lbs! If I keep progressing this fast, 500 lbs will not be far off, possibly attainable within 6-7 months. My front squat is also progressing nicely, and my military press is higher than ever.

The problem is in my bench press. In the same 3 cycles, it only grew by maybe 13-15 lbs (11 lbs weight increase and +1 to working set in week 12). Now, this isn’t bad, but I know I work hard, eat hard, and make much better progress everywhere else. Besides, the bench press is my (proportionately) weakest lift to begin with, so I was hoping to balance it out. (Today, I did 200 lbs x 4)

I pause it at the bottom, and few inches off my chest is the sticking point. I don’t think I can get any more out of my technique without professional training. Leg drive, tightness, shoulders, breathing: everything is fine. I tried various secondary exercises: more flat bench, incline bench, DB presses, dips, and nothing seems to give me the kind of progress I want to make (5 lbs + new set PRs each cycle).

This cycle, I started including a few sets of volume tricep work on top of the compound secondary exercises. On Bench day, I do dead-skullcrushers, and on Military Press day, I finish off with tricep pulldowns. I also started adding more horizontal lat work in addition to pull-up variations. Hopefully, this’ll pay off in my next cycle.

Is there anything else I can do to boost my bench progress on this program in the long run? I don’t know how much point there is in doing isolation chest work; don’t think there is much at all, to be honest!

Maybe I should stop doing paused bench press and switch to touch & go? Sometimes, I feel a bit uncomfortable in my shoulders at the bottom of the lift. On the other hand, I associate touch & go with bad form, because before I started focusing on slow lowering and a pause at the bottom 6-7 months ago, I was just ego-lifting, i.e. bouncing the bar off my chest, dropping the weight to my chest. In other words, my benching was a serious injury waiting to happen, even more than the shoulder discomfort the bottom of the lift.

56

[quote]G87 wrote:
Hey, all. Long post, so thanks in advance for braving it!

First of all, thanks to everyone who contributes to these threads. I can’t even remember all the people who’ve given me good advice in this forum, and the bodybuilding one (CC in particular) on making 5-3-1 work for me.

In the past 3 months, I’ve been making great progress on the program. I estimate my deadlift 1RM went up by over 40 lbs, and is now around 400 lbs! If I keep progressing this fast, 500 lbs will not be far off, possibly attainable within 6-7 months. My front squat is also progressing nicely, and my military press is higher than ever.

The problem is in my bench press. In the same 3 cycles, it only grew by maybe 13-15 lbs (11 lbs weight increase and +1 to working set in week 12). Now, this isn’t bad, but I know I work hard, eat hard, and make much better progress everywhere else. Besides, the bench press is my (proportionately) weakest lift to begin with, so I was hoping to balance it out. (Today, I did 200 lbs x 4)

I pause it at the bottom, and few inches off my chest is the sticking point. I don’t think I can get any more out of my technique without professional training. Leg drive, tightness, shoulders, breathing: everything is fine. I tried various secondary exercises: more flat bench, incline bench, DB presses, dips, and nothing seems to give me the kind of progress I want to make (5 lbs + new set PRs each cycle).

This cycle, I started including a few sets of volume tricep work on top of the compound secondary exercises. On Bench day, I do dead-skullcrushers, and on Military Press day, I finish off with tricep pulldowns. I also started adding more horizontal lat work in addition to pull-up variations. Hopefully, this’ll pay off in my next cycle.

Is there anything else I can do to boost my bench progress on this program in the long run? I don’t know how much point there is in doing isolation chest work; don’t think there is much at all, to be honest!

Maybe I should stop doing paused bench press and switch to touch & go? Sometimes, I feel a bit uncomfortable in my shoulders at the bottom of the lift. On the other hand, I associate touch & go with bad form, because before I started focusing on slow lowering and a pause at the bottom 6-7 months ago, I was just ego-lifting, i.e. bouncing the bar off my chest, dropping the weight to my chest. In other words, my benching was a serious injury waiting to happen, even more than the shoulder discomfort the bottom of the lift.[/quote]

Not sure I see much of a problem here but I am kind of confused by the numbers you gave. On cycle 1 what was your weight x reps for your 1+ set of bench on the last week. Also give the same for your most recent cycle.

57

Anybody aiming for 100 chin-ups per week as mentioned in the eBook? If so, how are you getting to that number? I don’t think I can work them in between push exercises as Jim suggests.

58

[quote]jsdool wrote:
Anybody aiming for 100 chin-ups per week as mentioned in the eBook? If so, how are you getting to that number? I don’t think I can work them in between push exercises as Jim suggests.[/quote]

I did it for my first two cycles. I split it half and half on the BP and MP days. Each time I’d just do as many chins in a set as I could while keeping one in the tank (so not to failure), and trying to ultimately lower the number of sets it took me to do 50 in each workout. I think at first it was taking me 7 sets and I got it down to 4 sets to get 50, so it seems to have worked pretty well. I’m still using 5/3/1 but I decided to try ramping per CT’s recommendations so I pick a number of reps to aim for, start with bodyweight, and then continue to add weight to my weight belt until I can barely get the number of sets, and I still do it on both BP and MP days. I just started that 2 or 3 weeks ago and my chin 5RM has gone up about 30 pounds. Both ways work well.

59

[quote]jsdool wrote:
Anybody aiming for 100 chin-ups per week as mentioned in the eBook? If so, how are you getting to that number? I don’t think I can work them in between push exercises as Jim suggests.[/quote]

with 2 upper body days, its not hard to get 100chins/pullups per week. you can do 50 on MP day, 50 on bench. 5 sets of 10, 10 sets of 5, 25 sets of 2, etc, etc. its really not hard to get them in. just look at your training, and split the 100 reps up where it makes sense.

on my MP and Bench days, i will do the main lift 5/3/1 style, then superset my MP or Bench assistance move with chins.

so, for example, MP day:

A) MP 5/3/1

B1) dips
B2) chins

if im doing 5 sets of dips, ill get as many chins done between the dips sets as i can, then ill probably have some left to do of the 50 for that day, so ill just do straight sets of however many reps til i hit 50.

60

[quote]G87 wrote:
Maybe I should stop doing paused bench press and switch to touch & go? Sometimes, I feel a bit uncomfortable in my shoulders at the bottom of the lift. On the other hand, I associate touch & go with bad form, because before I started focusing on slow lowering and a pause at the bottom 6-7 months ago, I was just ego-lifting, i.e. bouncing the bar off my chest, dropping the weight to my chest. In other words, my benching was a serious injury waiting to happen, even more than the shoulder discomfort the bottom of the lift.[/quote]

there is a difference between touch and go and bouncing. you just havent found the method that works best for you. i have a buggy shoulder from an old football injury and i just always bench off a 1 board. that has helped me tremendously. the problem is most people allow the bar to drop the last inch on touch/go instead of staying tight and all the way. the best way i found was to just use a bar and practice staying tight all the way down to the chest instead of relaxing and letting it drop/bounce/catch/press like i used to and most people do.

food for thought…when you take just the barbell and bring it down to your chest do you find it stops 1-2inches above your chest and you have to pull it down or relax to get it to touch? if the bar does stop short then you are probably relaxing to let it come all the way down instead of pulling it down. if you relax the probability of injury is higher then pulling it down; which keeps you in tighter position.