Wendler 5/3/1 Program

Training Powerlifting
521

Jim,

Bit of a “how long is a piece of string” question, but any idea what the average increase in peoples lifts has been over a 3 and 6 month period while using 5/3/1??

A guy I train with from time to time’s using it and loves it. I’m giving serious thought to running it from May-Mid September.

Also, for single ply lifters, have you had any feedback on the success of the program? Or any changes you’d suggest?(obviously there’s the need to work in the equipment before the comp like)

Cheers big man!

522

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Jim,

Bit of a “how long is a piece of string” question, but any idea what the average increase in peoples lifts has been over a 3 and 6 month period while using 5/3/1??

A guy I train with from time to time’s using it and loves it. I’m giving serious thought to running it from May-Mid September.

Also, for single ply lifters, have you had any feedback on the success of the program? Or any changes you’d suggest?(obviously there’s the need to work in the equipment before the comp like)

Cheers big man![/quote]

This is a good question and one that I have no idea how to answer. I wish I did because I think it would be very interesting. But since I don’t know, I will admit it and not try to blow smoke up your ass. Having said that, I really think that any program can work well if it is well thought out with focus, and adheres to the philosophy that I talk about in the book.

As for single ply (or even double ply lifters) - the best advice I can give you is to put your equipment on AFTER the main lift of the day and work into it. I’m not a big believer in getting in your gear too often; this takes away valuable training time that you can use to get stronger.

I have had people use their gear every 3rd week and work up to a certain % of their best geared squat/bench press. The whole gear issue is really just a large clusterfuck and training to use it is so random and individual. I never put my squat suit on until 2 weeks or so before the meet. Others SWEAR that you have to put it on all the time.

I really think that how a person successfully trains with his gear is totally dependant on what he wants to believe is effective. I hated putting the stuff on and thus…didn’t need to put it on.

523

I know I’m late to the party but: HOLY SHIT JW POSTS HERE!? lol

Thanks for this amazing program man. I did about 3.5 cycles through and my strength went through the roof in bench/deadlift. I don’t back squat thanks to a nifty back injury that I just so happen to have just re-injured.

Any chance you have a “way to work around a lower back injury” guide there too?

I have my ways around it…but it wouldn’t hurt to take some advice from JW himself.

524

[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:

This is a good question and one that I have no idea how to answer. I wish I did because I think it would be very interesting. But since I don’t know, I will admit it and not try to blow smoke up your ass. Having said that, I really think that any program can work well if it is well thought out with focus, and adheres to the philosophy that I talk about in the book.

As for single ply (or even double ply lifters) - the best advice I can give you is to put your equipment on AFTER the main lift of the day and work into it. I’m not a big believer in getting in your gear too often; this takes away valuable training time that you can use to get stronger.

I have had people use their gear every 3rd week and work up to a certain % of their best geared squat/bench press. The whole gear issue is really just a large clusterfuck and training to use it is so random and individual. I never put my squat suit on until 2 weeks or so before the meet. Others SWEAR that you have to put it on all the time.

I really think that how a person successfully trains with his gear is totally dependant on what he wants to believe is effective. I hated putting the stuff on and thus…didn’t need to put it on.

[/quote]

Thanks for the reply Jim… Might be an idea to try and assemble the data going forward, would give you a nice little back up to the effectiveness of the program in quantifiable terms!!

As for the equipment debate…I totally agree. I need a 10-12 weeks in my shirt (mainly because it’s 2-3 inches under chest size!!), but I normally put that on after doing some ME work and before doing some boards.

I typically only need 3-4 weeks in my suit, and 1 or 2 in wraps.

What’s the scope for modifying 5/3/1 for equipped lifting like anyway… using box squats, rack pulls board presses as assistance exercises after the main lifts? I’d be thinking a sensible enough approach to them, like multiple sets of 5-6 would be ok?

Also, the 4-6 or so of my 5/3/1 life will probably be done while dieting, I assume using 90% of your max as the basis for the program percentages will still be safe enough?

525

[quote]B rocK wrote:

Thanks for this amazing program man. I did about 3.5 cycles through and my strength went through the roof in bench/deadlift. I don’t back squat thanks to a nifty back injury that I just so happen to have just re-injured.
[/quote]

Dude… ya gotta give us numbers… How long does a cycle last anyway?

526

[quote]B rocK wrote:
I know I’m late to the party but: HOLY SHIT JW POSTS HERE!? lol

Thanks for this amazing program man. I did about 3.5 cycles through and my strength went through the roof in bench/deadlift. I don’t back squat thanks to a nifty back injury that I just so happen to have just re-injured.

Any chance you have a “way to work around a lower back injury” guide there too?

I have my ways around it…but it wouldn’t hurt to take some advice from JW himself.[/quote]

The best advice I ever got regarding injuries came from Buddy Morris, “Train what is trainable.”

If you can’t squat, figure out a way to train your legs that doesn’t involve a barbell.

527

What’s the scope for modifying 5/3/1 for equipped lifting like anyway… using box squats, rack pulls board presses as assistance exercises after the main lifts? I’d be thinking a sensible enough approach to them, like multiple sets of 5-6 would be ok?

This can be used as assistance work. Sets and reps are up to you, but if they take away from the main lift (and progress) then something has to change.**

Also, the 4-6 or so of my 5/3/1 life will probably be done while dieting, I assume using 90% of your max as the basis for the program percentages will still be safe enough?

As with any program when dieting, you are going to have to be tuned in pretty well to make some on-the-fly adjustments.*

528

[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
What’s the scope for modifying 5/3/1 for equipped lifting like anyway… using box squats, rack pulls board presses as assistance exercises after the main lifts? I’d be thinking a sensible enough approach to them, like multiple sets of 5-6 would be ok?

This can be used as assistance work. Sets and reps are up to you, but if they take away from the main lift (and progress) then something has to change.**

Also, the 4-6 or so of my 5/3/1 life will probably be done while dieting, I assume using 90% of your max as the basis for the program percentages will still be safe enough?

As with any program when dieting, you are going to have to be tuned in pretty well to make some on-the-fly adjustments.*[/quote]

Thanks a million Jim. The replies are much appreciated. I’ll probably have loads of questions, but I’ll repay you by keeping everyone up to date on my progress :wink:

529

[quote]Hanley wrote:
B rocK wrote:

Thanks for this amazing program man. I did about 3.5 cycles through and my strength went through the roof in bench/deadlift. I don’t back squat thanks to a nifty back injury that I just so happen to have just re-injured.

Dude… ya gotta give us numbers… How long does a cycle last anyway?

[/quote]

A cycle is 4 waves, which could take 4-5 weeks depending on how you setup your workouts. Also 1 wave != 1 week … it could be but doesn’t have to.

530

So I finished my first wave of the program, this is my breakdown:

DAY 1
Bench (main)
Chins (3x10)
Bent-over rows (2x12)
Dips (3x10)
Declined flies (2x12)

DAY 2
Power Cleans (main)
Deadlift (main)
Glute-ham raises (3x10)
Bulgarian Split-Squats (2x12)
Planks (4x1 min.)

DAY 3
Military (main)
Pull Ups (main)
Incline DB Press (3x10)
Cable Horiz. Presses OR Blast Straps (2x12)
Cable Rows (rev. grip) (3x10)
Face Pulls (2x12)

DAY 4
Snatch (main)
Squat (main)
Rev. Lunges from Deficit (3x10)
Kettlebell Swings (2x12 each arm)
AB roller wheel (4x12)

So far I’m really digging it! For the past few years, my training has been based on alternating Waterbury Style workouts, WSFSB,Complexes and a couple of other programs that I experimented with. I got great results, but a lot of the high volume/high intensity got my joints in pretty bad shape and I had been nurturing an injury ( I threw my back doing power cleans), well, even after the first week of 5/3/1 my joints feel GREAT and the low volume is being very welcome but the intensity and the challenges are still there.

I don’t know if I know my percentages a little too well, or I was a bit ambitious with the weights, but I’ve “only” gotten between 6 and 9 reps on my last set of the main lifts and tonight I got 7 reps on the second wave of bench (3x3). In any case, I’m going to keep the weights I started with and improve from there. I’m also hoping to get some mass gains if possible so I’m going to stay on a calorie surplus and adjust my energy systems if needed.

Anyway, I’ll do an update after the end of the 2nd and 3rd waves. Thanks a lot Jim for putting up such a straight-forward program and for “stepping in” and answer questions!

531

I forgot to mentioned that the workouts are shooort! I almost felt guilty at first since I’m used to working myself to the ground, but now I’m embracing it a bit, get in there, go all out fast, do my stretching/foam rolling and get the hell out of there… good shit!

532

[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
So I finished my first wave of the program, this is my breakdown:

DAY 1
Bench (main)
Chins (3x10)
Bent-over rows (2x12)
Dips (3x10)
Declined flies (2x12)

DAY 2
Power Cleans (main)
Deadlift (main)
Glute-ham raises (3x10)
Bulgarian Split-Squats (2x12)
Planks (4x1 min.)

DAY 3
Military (main)
Pull Ups (main)
Incline DB Press (3x10)
Cable Horiz. Presses OR Blast Straps (2x12)
Cable Rows (rev. grip) (3x10)
Face Pulls (2x12)

DAY 4
Snatch (main)
Squat (main)
Rev. Lunges from Deficit (3x10)
Kettlebell Swings (2x12 each arm)
AB roller wheel (4x12)

So far I’m really digging it! For the past few years, my training has been based on alternating Waterbury Style workouts, WSFSB,Complexes and a couple of other programs that I experimented with. I got great results, but a lot of the high volume/high intensity got my joints in pretty bad shape and I had been nurturing an injury ( I threw my back doing power cleans), well, even after the first week of 5/3/1 my joints feel GREAT and the low volume is being very welcome but the intensity and the challenges are still there.

I don’t know if I know my percentages a little too well, or I was a bit ambitious with the weights, but I’ve “only” gotten between 6 and 9 reps on my last set of the main lifts and tonight I got 7 reps on the second wave of bench (3x3). In any case, I’m going to keep the weights I started with and improve from there. I’m also hoping to get some mass gains if possible so I’m going to stay on a calorie surplus and adjust my energy systems if needed.

Anyway, I’ll do an update after the end of the 2nd and 3rd waves. Thanks a lot Jim for putting up such a straight-forward program and for “stepping in” and answer questions!

[/quote]

Sounds like you are on the right track. Don’t feel guilty about the short workouts. You either fall into two categories as a lifter:

  1. One that is results oriented.
  2. One that is workout oriented.

Most of us are a mix of both but those that want results will do what is necessary (which is sometimes NOTHING) to get the results that we want. Programs that don’t focus on a goal are pretty worthless. And if you are in the goddamn weight room, your goal better be to get strong and move more weight.

533

Thought I would share that I am ‘only’ adding 5 lbs for all lifts each cycle. Going for that long term gain.

534

I should also add that I’m in my 5th cycle and almost doubling the goal reps every workout … so that’s good.

535

[quote]Hanley wrote:
B rocK wrote:

Thanks for this amazing program man. I did about 3.5 cycles through and my strength went through the roof in bench/deadlift. I don’t back squat thanks to a nifty back injury that I just so happen to have just re-injured.

Dude… ya gotta give us numbers… How long does a cycle last anyway?

[/quote]
Oh sorry man. I think the Dude summed it up. 4 weeks. I only did 2 on my last cycle thanks to some contest prep and then an injury. Now I’m finishing up the cycle by sitting on my ass for a week doing jack shit.

536

Hey guys, you ARE making too many assumptions about what I am saying, especially when recommending that I “stop reading and start lifting.” - what I have been posting about is not about ME, it is about whether or not I recommend this to beginners etc… when they ask my advice, which they inevitably do.

But I answered my own question by digging around other people’s results.

Adding 5 lbs per month to the 1RM does not translate to adding 5 lbs per month to your maxs’ or personal bests

I went through calculating 1RMs and checking the results people had achieved in logs/in the ebook etc… and realised they were getting the same rate of progress as they would have been getting if they were doing 5x5 or Texas or whatever other method where they are adding 5 lbs per week to their 5 reps etc… and so forth - so, they are not wasting their time. So pretty good for even early intermediate lifters.

537

Jim,

I am a powerlifter who needs some time away from shirts, suits, chains and bands.

In the process of getting to where I am now, I have become “quite soft around the edges”.

Will I still be able to increase my raw maxs on 5/3/1 whilst getting stronger and fitter?

I know Phil has done well with gaining muscle mass…have other people done so?
I am looking to get a bigger back and shoulders.

538

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Hey guys, you ARE making too many assumptions about what I am saying, especially when recommending that I “stop reading and start lifting.” - what I have been posting about is not about ME, it is about whether or not I recommend this to beginners etc… when they ask my advice, which they inevitably do.

But I answered my own question by digging around other people’s results.

Adding 5 lbs per month to the 1RM does not translate to adding 5 lbs per month to your maxs’ or personal bests

I went through calculating 1RMs and checking the results people had achieved in logs/in the ebook etc… and realised they were getting the same rate of progress as they would have been getting if they were doing 5x5 or Texas or whatever other method where they are adding 5 lbs per week to their 5 reps etc… and so forth - so, they are not wasting their time. So pretty good for even early intermediate lifters.
[/quote]

I get what you’re saying. The question then becomes how long will you be able to keep adding weight to a 3x5 or 5x5. OR does it even matter.

Reading through the Elite Q & A, I’ve noticed that all sorts of lifters (young/old, beginners/experienced, raw/equipped) are giving 5/3/1 a go with success.

So for looooong term gains, Jim is on to something. Then again, it could just be the JD he drinks, but I digress.

539

[quote]DCR wrote:
Jim,

I am a powerlifter who needs some time away from shirts, suits, chains and bands.

In the process of getting to where I am now, I have become “quite soft around the edges”.

Will I still be able to increase my raw maxs on 5/3/1 whilst getting stronger and fitter?

I know Phil has done well with gaining muscle mass…have other people done so?
I am looking to get a bigger back and shoulders.
[/quote]

Just in case Jim doesn’t answer, yes you will increase your raw maxes thereby getting you stronger. More fit? That’s going to be up to your conditioning beyond the basic lifts.

540

Bit of a question Jim,

Great progress so far, I’ll send the full results to ya for some marketing after I’ve went through a few more waves :D. Front squat is shooting through the roof.

I think I may have started Sumo Deadlift too low though; before I started training it I barely hit 275x3. 2 waves later I’m hitting 275x15 on the 95% day.

Do you think I should start making bigger jumps than 15 lbs a wave? Set for 245 tomorrow and I’m shooting for at least 20, slightly concerned about losing strength in the lower rep ranges.