[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
For the record - if I could grow my hair out to look like Charles Manson on Steroids, I would. I hate not having hair and sporting the wrap-around ala Captain Stubing.
[/quote]
LMAO!
Did anyone think anout using the standard west side templete with 5/3/1 for the first lift, 4 days a week?
I wrote it out for the hell of it and it looks pretty solid.
Wouldn’t that just be doing westside? ? ? ? In what way does that make it 5-3-1?
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Bench Press 5/3/1
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Tricps
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Shoulder
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Lats/upper back.
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Squat 5/3/1
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Hamstrings
-
Quads
-
Abs
Same thing for military press and deadlift, just with diffrent lifts.
Heavy tris would be on MP day, lite shoulders would be on bench day so would heavy last/upper back.
Something like that
Any women here doing 5/3/1? My wife is interested, she may start it soon.
[quote]DF85 wrote:
-
Bench Press 5/3/1
-
Tricps
-
Shoulder
-
Lats/upper back.
-
Squat 5/3/1
-
Hamstrings
-
Quads
-
Abs
Same thing for military press and deadlift, just with diffrent lifts.
Heavy tris would be on MP day, lite shoulders would be on bench day so would heavy last/upper back.
Something like that[/quote]
The Bible periodization , its in the book. Very similar!
[quote]Phillip Wylie wrote:
Jim Wendler wrote:
For the record - if I could grow my hair out to look like Charles Manson on Steroids, I would. I hate not having hair and sporting the wrap-around ala Captain Stubing.
LMAO!
[/quote]
Phil, I saw you are doing Sheiko training for your next contest, why the change? Need something new?
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
I have no problem with complexity or simplicity.
5-3-1 is a very good simple, effective, flexible periodised system for advanced and elite lifters.
It is probably a good system for people who are intermediate-advanced.
It ~might~ be good for people who are newly intermediate, people who are still adding 5-10lbs per WEEK using existing systems like Texas of 5x5. It ~might~ be as good as these systems, for these people. That is what I am trying to establish.
It is probably NOT a good system for beginners, who can add 5-10lbs every single workout. What is the point of going through all this for months with tiny chicken weights based on a newbie 1RM when these people are just learning the moves.
For these people, a Starting Strength type approach adding weight every single workout is more efficient, bringing them up to speed until they plateau … until they can only add weight on a weekly basis.
Now, if 5-3-1 is just as good for the early intermediates, then it is one heck of a clever, self-adapting, self-adjusting system that can be used from early stages of a persons’ training to very late stages. And that is just awesome.
People porobably wonder what I mean by self-adapting … well, whenever you take some arbitrary % and stick in a routine, who is to say that is a % that is going to give a good workout? For some people it will, for others it won’t. On a good day it won’t be enough work, on a bad day it will be too much. etc… but because on hte last set you go for as many as you can, you pick up the slack, or you back off, naturally, based on your current condition/progress/energy levels - getting close to an optimum workout for the day.
[/quote]
You are WAY over-thinking this stuff my man. If a beginner is due for a 60 pound increase on his squat or whatever, it’ll happen.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Now, if 5-3-1 is just as good for the early intermediates, then it is one heck of a clever, self-adapting, self-adjusting system that can be used from early stages of a persons’ training to very late stages. And that is just awesome.
People porobably wonder what I mean by self-adapting … well, whenever you take some arbitrary % and stick in a routine, who is to say that is a % that is going to give a good workout? For some people it will, for others it won’t. On a good day it won’t be enough work, on a bad day it will be too much. etc… but because on hte last set you go for as many as you can, you pick up the slack, or you back off, naturally, based on your current condition/progress/energy levels - getting close to an optimum workout for the day.
[/quote]
how does this statement
"but because on hte last set you go for as many as you can, you pick up the slack, or you back off, naturally, based on your current condition/progress/energy levels - getting close to an optimum workout for the day. "
Not completely contradict the rest of what you wrote? You’re speaking out of theory, and there’s too much empirical data that says this is a great program that has worked well for a lot of people. I dont recall seeing anywhere that anyone said it was BETTER than starting strength. I dont recall seeing anywhere that someone wrote that it is the PERFECT training system. But when you start looking for perfect, or optimal, you start down a maze with no end. Find something that is “good” and give it an honest try - bust your ass. If you have a reason to change something, do it. But this arguing about theory - what is the point?
[quote]MikeyKBiatch wrote:
Phil, I saw you are doing Sheiko training for your next contest, why the change? Need something new?[/quote]
Mikey,
5/3/1 was working great, but I have wanted to do a Sheiko program quite some time and decided to give it a try. A couple guys from the gym have been telling me I need to at least try it once.
[quote]MikeyKBiatch wrote:
Phil, I saw you are doing Sheiko training for your next contest, why the change? Need something new?[/quote]
Mikey,
5/3/1 was working great, but I have wanted to do a Sheiko program quite some time and decided to give it a try. A couple guys from the gym have been telling me I need to at least try it once.
[quote]Phillip Wylie wrote:
Mikey,
5/3/1 was working great, but I have wanted to do a Sheiko program quite some time and decided to give it a try. A couple guys from the gym have been telling me I need to at least try it once.[/quote]
Cool, Ive heard good things about it also and hear it can be kinda brutal at times. I’m looking forward to see your progress with it, although I am making such good progress on this 5/3/1(on my sixth wave now) it will be a while before I change it up.
[quote]how does this statement
"but because on hte last set you go for as many as you can, you pick up the slack, or you back off, naturally, based on your current condition/progress/energy levels - getting close to an optimum workout for the day. "
Not completely contradict the rest of what you wrote? You’re speaking out of theory, and there’s too much empirical data that says this is a great program that has worked well for a lot of people. I dont recall seeing anywhere that anyone said it was BETTER than starting strength. I dont recall seeing anywhere that someone wrote that it is the PERFECT training system. But when you start looking for perfect, or optimal, you start down a maze with no end. Find something that is “good” and give it an honest try - bust your ass. If you have a reason to change something, do it. But this arguing about theory - what is the point?[/quote]
You are making too many assumptions. I am NOT looking for a perfect training system. I am looking for something that would be a good substitute for Texas Method for people at that stage. So when people ask me what they should do I can recommend something that won’t waste months of their time adding 5 lbs a month when they could be adding 5 lbs a week - at least for awhile.
I am not looking for perfect.
I am wondering if this is self-optimising for people in an early intermediate stage.
Why is this hard for anyone to understand?
If you tell someone to do 5 sets with 75% how do you know that is going to be optimum or even useful for that person at that time - you don’t - so you have to introduce something that changes the workload for the day. like
… do as many reps as possible at the end
… or do as many reps in 2 mins … or add as much poundage as you possibly can for a max single or 2 reps
… or, add 5 lbs this week and see if you get 5 reps and if you only get 4 reps keep it the same weight next week and if you continue to stall drop the weight 10%
Again, not looking for a perfect system, but a system lacking some kind of self-adjusting element is crappy. And this one is damned simple, and provides a good idea in calculating and comparing your max. So, I highly recommend it to someone who is latter stage intermediate (adding 5 lbs every fortnight or so) and advanced etc… - but not to beginners and probably not to early intermediates.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
You are making too many assumptions. I am NOT looking for a perfect training system. I am looking for something that would be a good substitute for Texas Method for people at that stage. So when people ask me what they should do I can recommend something that won’t waste months of their time adding 5 lbs a month when they could be adding 5 lbs a week - at least for awhile.
I am not looking for perfect.
I am wondering if this is self-optimising for people in an early intermediate stage.
Why is this hard for anyone to understand?
If you tell someone to do 5 sets with 75% how do you know that is going to be optimum or even useful for that person at that time - you don’t - so you have to introduce something that changes the workload for the day. like
… do as many reps as possible at the end
[/quote]
But on the last set you are doing as many reps as possible… so even if that person is adding strength at a fast rate they are still going all out at the end of the last set… Also as said previously, if you are making fast gains you can bump the weight up more then the recommended 5 or 10 pounds, at least for a little while. Maybe I am misunderstanding you…
[quote]
Mikey,
5/3/1 was working great, but I have wanted to do a Sheiko program quite some time and decided to give it a try. A couple guys from the gym have been telling me I need to at least try it once.[/quote]
Such a sad, sad day! Good luck Phil - I appreciate all the support. You are like a well made bra and I…heavy hangers with dark, rich areolas and cocoa bean nipples.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
how does this statement
"but because on hte last set you go for as many as you can, you pick up the slack, or you back off, naturally, based on your current condition/progress/energy levels - getting close to an optimum workout for the day. "
Not completely contradict the rest of what you wrote? You’re speaking out of theory, and there’s too much empirical data that says this is a great program that has worked well for a lot of people. I dont recall seeing anywhere that anyone said it was BETTER than starting strength. I dont recall seeing anywhere that someone wrote that it is the PERFECT training system. But when you start looking for perfect, or optimal, you start down a maze with no end. Find something that is “good” and give it an honest try - bust your ass. If you have a reason to change something, do it. But this arguing about theory - what is the point?
You are making too many assumptions. I am NOT looking for a perfect training system. I am looking for something that would be a good substitute for Texas Method for people at that stage. So when people ask me what they should do I can recommend something that won’t waste months of their time adding 5 lbs a month when they could be adding 5 lbs a week - at least for awhile.
I am not looking for perfect.
I am wondering if this is self-optimising for people in an early intermediate stage.
Why is this hard for anyone to understand?
If you tell someone to do 5 sets with 75% how do you know that is going to be optimum or even useful for that person at that time - you don’t - so you have to introduce something that changes the workload for the day. like
… do as many reps as possible at the end
… or do as many reps in 2 mins … or add as much poundage as you possibly can for a max single or 2 reps
… or, add 5 lbs this week and see if you get 5 reps and if you only get 4 reps keep it the same weight next week and if you continue to stall drop the weight 10%
Again, not looking for a perfect system, but a system lacking some kind of self-adjusting element is crappy. And this one is damned simple, and provides a good idea in calculating and comparing your max. So, I highly recommend it to someone who is latter stage intermediate (adding 5 lbs every fortnight or so) and advanced etc… - but not to beginners and probably not to early intermediates.
[/quote]
I’m making too many assumptions? That’s hilarious. There are two main points that are worth me repeating
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There is a ton of empirical evidence showing that this program has gotten great results, including the beginners that Jim has worked with. If somebody comes on here and says “Hey guys, yknow, I coach HSers, and a lot of my freshman are stagnating on this” then I’ll listen. You’re not saying that. You’re talking about things that you think and things you suppose. That is utterly useless
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You have already said that it IS “self-regulating” in that you BUST YOUR ASS ON THE LAST SET. So I dont care whether a newb is adding 15lbs every week or if he’s adding 3 reps on his squat - he is making roughly commensurate progress. Frequency is not the be-all and end-all
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
how does this statement
"but because on hte last set you go for as many as you can, you pick up the slack, or you back off, naturally, based on your current condition/progress/energy levels - getting close to an optimum workout for the day. "
Not completely contradict the rest of what you wrote? You’re speaking out of theory, and there’s too much empirical data that says this is a great program that has worked well for a lot of people. I dont recall seeing anywhere that anyone said it was BETTER than starting strength. I dont recall seeing anywhere that someone wrote that it is the PERFECT training system. But when you start looking for perfect, or optimal, you start down a maze with no end. Find something that is “good” and give it an honest try - bust your ass. If you have a reason to change something, do it. But this arguing about theory - what is the point?
You are making too many assumptions. I am NOT looking for a perfect training system. I am looking for something that would be a good substitute for Texas Method for people at that stage. So when people ask me what they should do I can recommend something that won’t waste months of their time adding 5 lbs a month when they could be adding 5 lbs a week - at least for awhile.
I am not looking for perfect.
I am wondering if this is self-optimising for people in an early intermediate stage.
Why is this hard for anyone to understand?
If you tell someone to do 5 sets with 75% how do you know that is going to be optimum or even useful for that person at that time - you don’t - so you have to introduce something that changes the workload for the day. like
… do as many reps as possible at the end
… or do as many reps in 2 mins … or add as much poundage as you possibly can for a max single or 2 reps
… or, add 5 lbs this week and see if you get 5 reps and if you only get 4 reps keep it the same weight next week and if you continue to stall drop the weight 10%
Again, not looking for a perfect system, but a system lacking some kind of self-adjusting element is crappy. And this one is damned simple, and provides a good idea in calculating and comparing your max. So, I highly recommend it to someone who is latter stage intermediate (adding 5 lbs every fortnight or so) and advanced etc… - but not to beginners and probably not to early intermediates.
[/quote]
… I think it’s time for you to stop reading and start lifting.
Anyway, on the topic at hand, Jim, have you had reports of people doing your thing but that have come up with their own twist on the system? It’d be interesting to see what others have come up with.
"… I think it’s time for you to stop reading and start lifting.
Anyway, on the topic at hand, Jim, have you had reports of people doing your thing but that have come up with their own twist on the system? It’d be interesting to see what others have come up with."
Not really. If they are I haven’t heard much or it’s the standard “I wanna do dynamic work but not do X” or whatever they read in a magazine two hours ago and seems like a good idea. I’m not going to ever say this is the best training system or whatever - it’s not and it’s not perfect. I never claimed it to be so let me clear that up. But it is set up for a reason and whenever people start adding things (or taking them away) or twisting them around and start asking questions…what the fuck am I gonna do? I don’t know the answers and it’s all hypothetical on my part.
The main point I want people to learn is the philosphophy I discuss and the principles in the program. These are solid and will stand the test of time. Learn and internalize them and go do your own thing. If someone does this then I have done my job and have given back.
If they can tweak it better for themselves they no longer need me to analzye their program and I would never do it - they have found their own path.
Everyone else should squat, bench, deadlift and press.
Off Topic. Just read in the q/a over at elitefts.com that you are a Dax Riggs fan. That is awesome, I have rverything hes ever done (that came out). Been listening to acid bath since middle school.
Hey Jim, thanks for the quick reply. I figured your answer would go along those lines, but I was still curious.
Love the quote “Everyone else should squat, bench, deadlift and press.”