Wendler 5/3/1 Program

[quote]crankMAN wrote:
frankovic wrote:
I am wondering if anyone has tried doing 5/3/1 with a pause on every rep for the bench press. Let me know if you have had success.

Some lifters (Phil Wylie)had some great success with pause at the bottom. If your doing it with a pause just make sure to do the whole cycle that way!
[/quote]

If you compete or have a weak low end, the pauses work great. One of my training partners is weak off the chest and the pauses worked great for him. You will want to use lower percentages if you pause.

What I found that worked best for me on the bench was to have the percentages low enough to do at least 5 reps on the last set of the 5/3/1 week. I followed it up with close grip bench presses. The first wave I really worked on being explosive on my reps and keep it at 8-10 reps for 3 sets. The last two waves I pushed them a little harder and went to 3 sets of 5 reps.

I also did incline DB bench presses at a 45° angle. I did the inclines in the 8-10 rep range for 3 sets. I didn’t do military presses, but got awesome carry over to the bench with the inclines.

After a 3 waves of this my raw contest bench went from 386 to 402. 402 wasn’t a max rep either.

Thanks for all the support. Let me know if you have any questions about anything and I’ll try to answer them today.

Also, buy my book so I can get a gold plated toilet seat.

-Jim Wendler, www.elitefts.com

I have a question but it is not 5/3/1 related. I know you get enough of them.

Are you coming out with a conditioning manual and a yoke manual? I remember reading something about it.

Awesome if you do.

[quote]DF85 wrote:
I have a question but it is not 5/3/1 related. I know you get enough of them.

Are you coming out with a conditioning manual and a yoke manual? I remember reading something about it.

Awesome if you do.
[/quote]

Yes. Not sure when both of these will come out though. I have a lot of the Yoke manual done right now.

Hey Jim, about ab work. What do you think about doing it on conditioning days, so you can save more energy for lifts on 5/3/1 days? Thanks!

[quote]Hog Ear wrote:
Hey Jim, about ab work. What do you think about doing it on conditioning days, so you can save more energy for lifts on 5/3/1 days? Thanks![/quote]

That’s fine…but a couple sets of ab work shouldn’t kill you during your workout. Unless you are doing something that requires 40 minutes to set up.

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=182&pid=2976

Jim,

  1. What type of Prowler pushes/sprints would you recommend after one of the lower body training days?

Example:
Six sets of 40 yards with one-minute rest breaks (3 sets low handles and 3 sets on poles) or something else?

  1. Do you have a preference as to what seems to work best? I saw your article on the Prowler Challenges, but wasn’t sure if one is better suited after a leg day.

  2. Also, is it better to perform Prowler pushes/sprints after the deadlift or squat day?

  3. What about sprint intervals - do you recommend them after deadlift or squat day or does it matter?

[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
Hog Ear wrote:
Hey Jim, about ab work. What do you think about doing it on conditioning days, so you can save more energy for lifts on 5/3/1 days? Thanks!

That’s fine…but a couple sets of ab work shouldn’t kill you during your workout. Unless you are doing something that requires 40 minutes to set up.

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=182&pid=2976
[/quote]

Jim, I tend to suck at ‘heavier’ weights (80%+) in the squat on 531. Like on deadlift I got 12 reps the first week and then I got 9 reps on the third week.

But on the squat I got 12 reps the first week and only 6 reps on the third week. This happened the last time I did 531 as well.

What do you think is the reason for this?

Also, thank you for this great training system - it simply makes more sense than anything I’ve tried before.

[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
Jim,

  1. What type of Prowler pushes/sprints would you recommend after one of the lower body training days?

Example:
Six sets of 40 yards with one-minute rest breaks (3 sets low handles and 3 sets on poles) or something else?

  1. Do you have a preference as to what seems to work best? I saw your article on the Prowler Challenges, but wasn’t sure if one is better suited after a leg day.

  2. Also, is it better to perform Prowler pushes/sprints after the deadlift or squat day?

  3. What about sprint intervals - do you recommend them after deadlift or squat day or does it matter?[/quote]

Nate - remember that these challenges (the ones listed in the article) are just that…challenges. So doing these would be tests that you would work up to. I would pick one challenge that you want to accomplish (or something similar) and make a plan to work up to it or prepare for it.

I personally like doing the sprints better BUT that means nothing really; just personal preference. Probably because I’m better at them.

The Prowler work (or any intensive conditioning work) is usually best done after either squat or deadlift day.

Sprinting, with the idea of becoming faster, should be done first in a workout when you are fresh. Conditioning work should be done last. There is a big difference.

  • Speed
  • Strength
  • Conditioning

Think about it those terms.

[quote]ev1bl wrote:
Jim Wendler wrote:
Hog Ear wrote:
Hey Jim, about ab work. What do you think about doing it on conditioning days, so you can save more energy for lifts on 5/3/1 days? Thanks!

That’s fine…but a couple sets of ab work shouldn’t kill you during your workout. Unless you are doing something that requires 40 minutes to set up.

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=182&pid=2976

Jim, I tend to suck at ‘heavier’ weights (80%+) in the squat on 531. Like on deadlift I got 12 reps the first week and then I got 9 reps on the third week.

But on the squat I got 12 reps the first week and only 6 reps on the third week. This happened the last time I did 531 as well.

What do you think is the reason for this?

Also, thank you for this great training system - it simply makes more sense than anything I’ve tried before.
[/quote]

I’m sure there is a physiological explanation for this but since my IQ is about 25, I’m not sure. Plus I was an English major so I spent most of my college days reading Shakespeare. But this is something I wouldn’t worry too much about because the progress is all that matters. The squat is a humbling and gut check kind of exericse, way more than the deadlift because you can never catch your breath, even when you are “resting”.

All of my lifts have different rep characteristics…my bench sucks ass and always has. Reps on that were always tough for me and still are. The deadlift was the same way until fairly recently. So I think a lot of this is a learned technique - sometimes more mental than physical.

[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
Jim,

  1. What type of Prowler pushes/sprints would you recommend after one of the lower body training days?

Example:
Six sets of 40 yards with one-minute rest breaks (3 sets low handles and 3 sets on poles) or something else?

  1. Do you have a preference as to what seems to work best? I saw your article on the Prowler Challenges, but wasn’t sure if one is better suited after a leg day.

  2. Also, is it better to perform Prowler pushes/sprints after the deadlift or squat day?

  3. What about sprint intervals - do you recommend them after deadlift or squat day or does it matter?

Nate - remember that these challenges (the ones listed in the article) are just that…challenges. So doing these would be tests that you would work up to. I would pick one challenge that you want to accomplish (or something similar) and make a plan to work up to it or prepare for it.

I personally like doing the sprints better BUT that means nothing really; just personal preference. Probably because I’m better at them.

The Prowler work (or any intensive conditioning work) is usually best done after either squat or deadlift day.

Sprinting, with the idea of becoming faster, should be done first in a workout when you are fresh. Conditioning work should be done last. There is a big difference.

  • Speed
  • Strength
  • Conditioning

Think about it those terms.[/quote]

Excellent advice!

Thanks.

Thanks for chiming in Jim!

I think you’ll find a gold toilet seat is not all it’s cracked up to be - easily scratched, and damned cold. However, a padded toilet seat, now that’s something else. And yes I actually had one of those once.

Great book, great routine, good other info in there too, good tips, highly recommended to all people.

I have one question regarding intermediates: if a person can normally add 5lbs/10lbs to a lift every WEEK, do you still think this approach of adding 5lbs/10lbs per month is a good idea? They normally would be adding 20 lbs to upper body or 40 lbs to lower body movements per month. Do you think that keeping the poundages added each month so low would be inefficient for people at that stage?

I am specifically thinking of people who might have finished starting strength type approach and are ready for 5x5 or Texas method or something.

At first I thought it might be inefficient but I am starting to think maybe it is NOT inefficient … people at that level who do 5-3-1 instead, would be getting many reps over their target 1+ reps etc… which is actually what they want to be doing, rather than heavy singles they are doing heavy 5+ reps and steadily progressing

At least that is what I am starting to think.

Now if lost in my drivel, the question is: is it inefficient for intermediates or beginners? If in your experience it is not, I will recommend to all (except true beginners who I still point at Starting Strength).

Coz it is great value and a good simple flexible system and I think it is self-adapting which is bloody marvellous.

“TheDudeAbides” thanks for that point [quote]“It is foreseeable to get 6-10 reps on wave 3(5/3/1) for the first several cycles. I did this for the first three cycles. This will not last for long, so just stick to the plan.”[/quote] that is useful to know and cleared that up for me.

“I have one question regarding intermediates: if a person can normally add 5lbs/10lbs to a lift every WEEK, do you still think this approach of adding 5lbs/10lbs per month is a good idea? They normally would be adding 20 lbs to upper body or 40 lbs to lower body movements per month. Do you think that keeping the poundages added each month so low would be inefficient for people at that stage?”

I think this is kind of wishful thinking - 5-10lbs every week is a little tough UNLESS they start very, very light (i.e. the bar). 20lbs every month is a little tough, for anyone. But I believe that a base must be built for anyone regardless of sport. For example, we have a young girl training at EFS with NO athletic background, no lifting skill, etc. Basically an empty canvas. Luckily she is open to whatever we tell her to do, which sounds very dirty. But I digress…

Anyway, we had her start with a 25-30lbs bar with every lift for 5 sets of 5 reps on squat, bench, press and deadlift. We squatted her every day and did some kind of pressing. We followed that with sit-ups, some low back work, etc. Very boring but effective. She struggled with all of this for about a month and now we are getting her to start pushing some of her last sets. All of the exercises are methodically planned and we never overreach. Tonight she squatted 60x10 reps and pressed 40x12.

The point is this: the principles will remain the same but the approach may be a little different. Build a solid base of technique and then progress slowly. Lifting weights has to be seen as long term pursuit of strength - trying to get everything done in 4 months and expecting the world in this time is irrational. Strength involves patience and the will to succeed. Trying to accelerate this progress usually results in frustration, quitting or a continuous cycle of plateaus. If you bench press 225 and want to get to 315, please remember that you have to press 230 to get there.

Embrace the art of strength.

Thanks Jim, obviously I am talking about people who are at the end of beginner level, and might say squat 150 lbs … I’d imagine they should be able to add 10 lbs per week for awhile longer, at least until they get to 200 lbs or so in say, 5 or 6 weeks. If they were adding 10 lbs per month that might have taken them 5 months instead of 1.5 months - not that it really matters - what I am wondering is if by doing 5-3-1 they might have added only 10 lbs for the second month, but actually, developed strength at the same rate ie. in the same time their progress would be roughly the same.

But instead of trying max effort and higher poundages each week, they are adding only a little more weight but a LOT more reps on the final set. And hence developing strength at the same rate, but adding less weight to the lifts.

I am not talking about beginners, people who should be able to add 10 lbs every second day because they have never lifted a weight before and are really just learning to fire nerves - not the first few months of touching weights.

I am talking about intermediates who cannot add weight every single time they go to the gym, but can only add weight weekly. Something like the Texas method, which recommends adding 5 lbs per week to 5 sets of 5 reps. So that would be 20 lbs per month.

But, of course, it might cause stalling every so often and in the long run might end up being the same - and if you could compare the two systems, after 6 months the Texas method might be using higher poundages in the workouts but testing the max might get the same result ie just as much progress on 5-3-1 as the Texas method, smoother, less stalling (if any) and less poundage in the workouts.

It would be interesting to know, but I will never get the chance to compare the two approaches. Unless I start coaching people and run experiments on them.

but I would not want to recommend 5-3-1 to an intermediate who ~might~ be able to add 60 lbs to their (initially pathetic) lifts in 3 months if 5-3-1 means they are going to take 6 months to do the same thing. But, by golly, if in fact the rate of gain is similar, and 5-3-1 has more variation, flexability and uses less poundage to get the job done, and the person has less plateau and resetting by 10% and feels less beat up (and isn’t squatting 3x a week) then 5-3-1 it is for anyone who is not an absolute beginner.

And for latter intermediate / advanced, 5-3-1 is a great one. It is a good book chock full of great info and a good routine.

I bet you did not think something so simple could be so misunderstood in so many ways …

Thanks JIM for stopping …

Quick one:
What do you think is the best way to incorporate pullups or chinups in the standar 4days rotation as a 5/3/1 exercice like your doing right now…(see 5/3/1 chins experiment)

Would you still used pullups or chinups as a assistance exercice on the others training days?

Personnaly i tought either as the first exercices after military or benchpress day,i would like to see your view on the subject.

Im asking because you recently started experiment the 5/3/1 with chinups.!

Thanks

I think 5/3/1 is the best and simplest strength training program for long term gains. I feel like people want to add complexity because they are used to complicated and confusing programs. You don’t(or shouldn’t) have to think about anything. Do X weight this month and add 5 or 10 more lbs next month. Push a prowler or pull a sled for improved conditioning, fat loss, and a big bald head just like Jim.

Perhaps he should have named it Secret German Pyramid 5/3/1 Training.

I have no problem with complexity or simplicity.

5-3-1 is a very good simple, effective, flexible periodised system for advanced and elite lifters.

It is probably a good system for people who are intermediate-advanced.

It ~might~ be good for people who are newly intermediate, people who are still adding 5-10lbs per WEEK using existing systems like Texas of 5x5. It ~might~ be as good as these systems, for these people. That is what I am trying to establish.

It is probably NOT a good system for beginners, who can add 5-10lbs every single workout. What is the point of going through all this for months with tiny chicken weights based on a newbie 1RM when these people are just learning the moves.

For these people, a Starting Strength type approach adding weight every single workout is more efficient, bringing them up to speed until they plateau … until they can only add weight on a weekly basis.

Now, if 5-3-1 is just as good for the early intermediates, then it is one heck of a clever, self-adapting, self-adjusting system that can be used from early stages of a persons’ training to very late stages. And that is just awesome.

People porobably wonder what I mean by self-adapting … well, whenever you take some arbitrary % and stick in a routine, who is to say that is a % that is going to give a good workout? For some people it will, for others it won’t. On a good day it won’t be enough work, on a bad day it will be too much. etc… but because on hte last set you go for as many as you can, you pick up the slack, or you back off, naturally, based on your current condition/progress/energy levels - getting close to an optimum workout for the day.

[quote]crankMAN wrote:
Thanks JIM for stopping …

Quick one:
What do you think is the best way to incorporate pullups or chinups in the standar 4days rotation as a 5/3/1 exercice like your doing right now…(see 5/3/1 chins experiment)

Would you still used pullups or chinups as a assistance exercice on the others training days?

Personnaly i tought either as the first exercices after military or benchpress day,i would like to see your view on the subject.

Im asking because you recently started experiment the 5/3/1 with chinups.!

Thanks[/quote]

Crankman - Either day would be fine. I haven’t exactly figured out how I’m going to do it right now but probably will do it on my bench day. The ONLY reason why I chose this is because I’m on the road on the weekends (which is when I do my military press) and I’m not bringing a dip/chin belt with me.

As for an assitance exercise in addition to - that’s fine. It’s no big deal either way.

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
I think 5/3/1 is the best and simplest strength training program for long term gains. I feel like people want to add complexity because they are used to complicated and confusing programs. You don’t(or shouldn’t) have to think about anything. Do X weight this month and add 5 or 10 more lbs next month. Push a prowler or pull a sled for improved conditioning, fat loss, and a big bald head just like Jim.

Perhaps he should have named it Secret German Pyramid 5/3/1 Training.[/quote]

For the record - if I could grow my hair out to look like Charles Manson on Steroids, I would. I hate not having hair and sporting the wrap-around ala Captain Stubing.