Wendler 5/3/1 Program - pt 2.

Training Powerlifting
1041

[quote]SweetDaddyPatty wrote:
jsdool wrote:
I re-read the eBook (fourth time), searched here and at EliteFTS but couldn’t find an answer.

Can speed sets be done for assistance exercises? I figure they fit the criteria for assistance exercises in the eBook: 1) Strengthen weak areas of the body; 2) Compliment and help increase the four basic lifts; 3) Provide balance and symmetry to your body and your training; and 4) Build muscle mass.

I was thinking of doing speed deadlifts as an assistance on squat day and speed squats on deadlift day.

… I don’t know why these knuckleheads can’t understand the concept of slow, but constant progression…

Reminds me of when I was a newbie doing StrongLifts 5x5 3X per week starting with an empty bar as recommended and adding 5-10lb each workout. Slow and constant progression that worked for nearly six months. Lots of guys asking whether they could start the program with x lbs instead of an empty bar.

[/quote]

Fuck off

1042

Based on the principles of the book and the Q&A’s:

Why’d you need speed work? Is your weak point in your lifts not at the bottom of your lifts, as they are in most people who lift raw (unless if you’re long armed-short torso’ed)?

5/3/1 was designed for raw lifters in mind, and so he’d always recommend using other programs if you’re interested in DE work.

1043

[quote]anakayub wrote:
Based on the principles of the book and the Q&A’s:

Why’d you need speed work? Is your weak point in your lifts not at the bottom of your lifts, as they are in most people who lift raw (unless if you’re long armed-short torso’ed)?

5/3/1 was designed for raw lifters in mind, and so he’d always recommend using other programs if you’re interested in DE work.[/quote]

Speed work was to try to work on power. Lifting lighter weights faster supposedly translates to being able to lift heavier weights slowly (but not the other way around). Hence my thinking that it would work as assistance. I can see where Jim W. doesn’t recommend it since he says that assistance should be high reps.

I want to stick with 5/3/1. I am just figuring out options for assistance exercises whereas others talk about altering the main lifts.

BTW, thanks for replying with an honest answer (well, it was actually a question but I get your point).

1044

[quote]jsdool wrote:
anakayub wrote:
Based on the principles of the book and the Q&A’s:

Why’d you need speed work? Is your weak point in your lifts not at the bottom of your lifts, as they are in most people who lift raw (unless if you’re long armed-short torso’ed)?

5/3/1 was designed for raw lifters in mind, and so he’d always recommend using other programs if you’re interested in DE work.

Speed work was to try to work on power. Lifting lighter weights faster supposedly translates to being able to lift heavier weights slowly (but not the other way around). Hence my thinking that it would work as assistance. I can see where Jim W. doesn’t recommend it since he says that assistance should be high reps.

I want to stick with 5/3/1. I am just figuring out options for assistance exercises whereas others talk about altering the main lifts.

BTW, thanks for replying with an honest answer (well, it was actually a question but I get your point).[/quote]

Getting stronger allows you to lift light weights faster. I can squat 225 a lot faster now that my max is 385 than when my max was 225.

1045

[quote]jsdool wrote:
I re-read the eBook (fourth time), searched here and at EliteFTS but couldn’t find an answer.

Can speed sets be done for assistance exercises? I figure they fit the criteria for assistance exercises in the eBook: 1) Strengthen weak areas of the body; 2) Compliment and help increase the four basic lifts; 3) Provide balance and symmetry to your body and your training; and 4) Build muscle mass.

I was thinking of doing speed deadlifts as an assistance on squat day and speed squats on deadlift day.[/quote]

For one response Jim gives regarding speed/dynamic work work: http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=102839&tid=

"Only in the form of box jumps, jumps, throws (med ball, KB, shot put, etc).

“This would be a seperate [sic.] phase of the program and done prior to training.”

Given the question this was a response to, it seems 1) that Jim does not think speed-DL or Speed squat is appropriate, 2) speed work wouldn’t serve as standard assistance work.

See also: http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=100326&tid=

I hope this helps.

1046

“fuck off”? really? unnecessary.

i think 5/3/1 is a great program, understatement of the year.

that being said, i think it is the WRONG program for people that just really feel that they need bands and chains and speed work and all that stuff. if that’s what you want to do, why not follow a more traditional westside template? those guys are one of the groups that made all those add-ons popular. why the fuck would you not just follow their whole idea, rather than bastardize their ideas?

Wendler has said that he doesnt suggest speed work/DE (for example, not trying to call anyone out) because it really didnt help him much, and he doesnt think its right for most people. Therefore, asking if speed work can be added to this program is somewhat ignorant. Someone asks a question, gets an answer. You ask the same question, and expect a different answer?

The reason that the answer the all of the “can X be added to this program” question is the same- “Do the program as written”- is that the program FUCKING WORKS AS WRITTEN!!! What more do you want? The program works fucking awesome. Now you want something that works awesome-er? There’s got to be a point where you realize that you need to just chill, do the work suggested, put in the time and effort, and have some patience.

The human body works pretty fucking awesome when you think about it. Still, there are those that would like it to work even awesome-er. For example, they would also like to be able to fly. They get out on the roof of some building somewhere, and attempt just that. What happens? Their shit no longer works pretty awesome.

1047

If you wanna do some speed work maybe you can buy this, training 3 days/week has about 10 different program including 5/3/1 and others that yes are using speed work and max effort!! Have fun!!

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?cid=370&m=PD&pid=2795

or

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=370&pid=2849

Sorry did not wanna sound rude about speed work but since i been reading all of Jim stuff for the last 2 or 3 years…Speed work and 5/3/1 been more then discuss…

1048

[quote]dez6485 wrote:
“fuck off”? really? unnecessary…[/quote]

Yes, probably unnecessary but it wasn’t with regards to whether I should or should not do something within the 5/3/1 program. The poster re-posted a comment I made earlier without quoting me so it looked like he was saying it to me. I took it as sarcasm. The difference between what I was saying that he took exception to was that he wanted to change the main lifts. All I was asking was whether ASSISTANCE exercises could (should?) be changed to target some weakness in the main lifts.

I’ll refrain from such petty sh*t from now on.

1049

[quote]crankMAN wrote:
If you wanna do some speed work maybe you can buy this, training 3 days/week has about 10 different program including 5/3/1 and others that yes are using speed work and max effort!! Have fun!!

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?cid=370&m=PD&pid=2795

or

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=370&pid=2849

Sorry did not wanna sound rude about speed work but since i been reading all of Jim stuff for the last 2 or 3 years…Speed work and 5/3/1 been more then discuss…[/quote]

I didn’t take it as being rude.

I’m not all that tied to speed work. I was just asking about it because it seems to make sense. You get your CNS used to moving fast which is more easily done with lighter weights and then you use that “memory” to later lift heavy weights. I did them a year ago. In retrospect, I don’t think they helped much for squat or deadlift but I did seem to notice that they helped my bench.

So, I don’t plan on doing any of that but I would like to read more detailed thoughts on the negative side of speed work if someone has a link. Rippetoe discussed them in Practical Programming and Cressy had them as part of Maximum Strength. However, I like to understand both the pros and the cons of any exercise and its variations.

1050

Just finished up my first Cycle and made some awesome gains. Anyone else think the deload week sucked? I finally realize what deloading is actually used for: making you itch to get back to some real weights the next week! haha…I couldn’t wait to get back in the gym for a real workout after deloading.

1051

[quote]jsdool wrote:
All I was asking was whether ASSISTANCE exercises could (should?) be changed to target some weakness in the main lifts.
[/quote]

to clarify:

that HAS been the point of the assistance exercises all along. if bench press uses mainly pecs, delts, tris, lats, then that is what your assitance should work on. not fucking bicep curls and shit like that.

on the other hand, if you arent approaching decent numbers* in your lifts, dont waste your time looking for weaknesses- because the weakness would be the whole thing, not as a put-down, but youre simply weak! not directing that at you, jsdool, just generalizing.

*decent numbers= there’s various guidelines people like to quote, but i would say if youre not at AT LEAST squat 2x bodyweight, bench 1.5x bodyweight, deadlift 2.5x bodyweight, dont bother looking for weaknesses yet! (in fact, id really say 2.5x, 2x, and 3x, respectively)

1052

[quote]dez6485 wrote:
…
*decent numbers= there’s various guidelines people like to quote, but i would say if youre not at AT LEAST squat 2x bodyweight, bench 1.5x bodyweight, deadlift 2.5x bodyweight, dont bother looking for weaknesses yet! (in fact, id really say 2.5x, 2x, and 3x, respectively)[/quote]

OK. I am at 1.7x, 1.3x, 2x, respectively. I think that is not too bad considering that I am 46 and didn’t start progressively lifting until a couple of years ago. I like to squat ass to grass (I have good flexibility and no knee problems whatsoever) so my squat could easily be higher if I just went to parallel.

1053

[quote]dez6485 wrote:

*decent numbers= there’s various guidelines people like to quote, but i would say if youre not at AT LEAST squat 2x bodyweight, bench 1.5x bodyweight, deadlift 2.5x bodyweight, dont bother looking for weaknesses yet! (in fact, id really say 2.5x, 2x, and 3x, respectively)[/quote]

I love the arrogance of powerlifters sometimes.

1054

[quote]gsherman14 wrote:
dez6485 wrote:

*decent numbers= there’s various guidelines people like to quote, but i would say if youre not at AT LEAST squat 2x bodyweight, bench 1.5x bodyweight, deadlift 2.5x bodyweight, dont bother looking for weaknesses yet! (in fact, id really say 2.5x, 2x, and 3x, respectively)

I love the arrogance of powerlifters sometimes. [/quote]

Yeah that post made me LOL too…let’s see, I’m 257, for 2.5-2-3 that means I should be able to squat 645, bench 515, and deadlift 770…holy shit! I would be an elite powerlifter with a raw total of 1930 before I could even work on weak points!!! LMAO! 98% of stats are made up on the spot

1055

Guys,

I don’t think it is arrogance. It’s just that until you start hitting some generally accepted multiples of your weight, you do not need to do specialized work. This is lgoical. Now, what you as an individual need to decide is whether that multiple of your bodyweight for a given exercise actually applies. Those numbers are just guidelines but they are a good starting point for most lifters.

1056

After reading a little on 5/3/1 I’ve decided to go ahead and try this because I’m in desperate need of strength (I’m a weak fucker relative to my weight…)

I don’t own the book and just read over a template write-up at bb.com, and this is what I got from it:

-3 workouts per week,
A squat
B bench
C Deadlift
D Military Press (this one begins in week 2, I’m assuming Monday)
-week one is 3x5, week 2 is 3x3, week 3 is 5/3/1 and week 4 is deload (excluding warm up sets)
-parameters are (again, excluding warm up sets)
week one: 75%x5, 80%x5, 85%x5
week two: 80%x3, 85%x3, 90%x3
week three: 75%x5, 85%x3, 95%x1
week four: 60%x5, 65%x5, 70%x5
-2 sets of assistance exercises
-should take 5 weeks for one mesocycle

Is this correct?

From the posts here I’m assuming I can finish the deload week and then just start another mesocycle, correct me if I’m wrong.

Oh yeah, I’ll be consuming around 4000 calories, I’m assuming that’s sufficient.

1057

No, what makes sense is to figure out what works for you and keep it and throw away the stuff that doesn’t. I don’t understand why you would all of the sudden start focusing on yoru weakpoints only when you hit some magcal ratio. Yes, keep the basic compound movements, but if you know that your lower back is holding you back, who the hell cares if you are only squatting 1.76826 times your bodyweight.

You aren’t going to get to 1.77 times without strengthening your lower back. The guidance was that you didn’t need to start farting around with chains, bands, and other crazy contraptions like many people do because they have ADD until you get reasonably strong.

1058

[quote]Sick Rick wrote:
After reading a little on 5/3/1 I’ve decided to go ahead and try this because I’m in desperate need of strength (I’m a weak fucker relative to my weight…)

I don’t own the book and just read over a template write-up at bb.com, and this is what I got from it:

-3 workouts per week,
A squat
B bench
C Deadlift
D Military Press (this one begins in week 2, I’m assuming Monday)
-week one is 3x5, week 2 is 3x3, week 3 is 5/3/1 and week 4 is deload (excluding warm up sets)
-parameters are (again, excluding warm up sets)
week one: 75%x5, 80%x5, 85%x5
week two: 80%x3, 85%x3, 90%x3
week three: 75%x5, 85%x3, 95%x1
week four: 60%x5, 65%x5, 70%x5
-2 sets of assistance exercises
-should take 5 weeks for one mesocycle

Is this correct?

From the posts here I’m assuming I can finish the deload week and then just start another mesocycle, correct me if I’m wrong.

Oh yeah, I’ll be consuming around 4000 calories, I’m assuming that’s sufficient.

[/quote]

That’s basically right if you can’t work out 4x week. But the real 5-3-1 is 4x week. But for fucks sake, why don’t you just buy the book??? It’s $20!!!

1059

arrogance-

first of all, im not a “powerlifter” yet. i havent competed, so as of now im a guy that does military, deads, bench, and squat.

second of all, do any of you know what “guidelines” are? not everyone is 257lbs. so you can take those ratios with a grain of salt. there are 157lb trainees, and 257lb trainees, those ratios work “ok” for both of them! and if you are a 257lb tub of goo, then youd be doing yourself a disservice to include all your goo when using those ratios!

not saying you are, just saying IF (IF!) you are. god damn, i guess everything needs to be spelled out for some of you people, or you need basic reading comprehension skills.

i said “approaching decent numbers” then gave an idea, using very widely used ratios, of what decent numbers were. then i put (my ideals) after that.

in-other-fucking-words: if a person were 200lbs, and they were at a 300lbs bench press (not too hard to get there) and they just couldnt get that number up, then they might start looking at what is weak. now if that same 200lb trainee were at a 275lb bench, they probably DONT need to start obsessing about what is weak, they just need more time under the fucking bar.

how is it that Dave Tate and the like can say these things, and people shut up and listen, but when someone you dont know says these things, people argue about it like its pure bullshit?

its common fucking sense, have some patience, and put in the time.

there will be a time when we all have to say this lift isnt making progress, and its because this muscle isnt strong enough. my point was not to get caught up in that shit until youve put in a decent amount of time. until then, EVERYTHING is a weak point and should be given equal attention.

i for one have a weak squat. im ~204lbs, and squat 405lbs. im not endlessly searching for a weak point there because i know that i havent been seriously training the squat long enough, so for me the whole damn thing is weak. i dont need to focus on my lower back, focus on my glutes, etc, i need to do it all.

are we done? or is there something else that someone would like to pick apart?

1060

another thing-

5/3/1 was first in print in Jim’s “Three Days a Week” ebook, set up as, you guessed it, 3 days/week lifting. just for anyone concerned with whether or not theyre doing the “real” 5/3/1.

ridiculous.