One of my gee-wizz training goals is to be able to do chins with my body weight (i.e a chin with 250lbs attatched to me); I figure that if I can do that than my bench will have a nice strong platform to push off of. So how should i go about building up my weighted chin strength? Latly, I have been doing rows 3 times a week for 3-6 sets of 6-8 reps. Should I keep the rows and put weighted chins in as a second back exercise?
Thanks
Will42
If you want a strong weighted chin, train it 1st. Treat the chin like any other exercise. If you want a strong bench what would you do?
beef
[quote]Will42 wrote:
One of my gee-wizz training goals is to be able to do chins with my body weight (i.e a chin with 250lbs attatched to me); I figure that if I can do that than my bench will have a nice strong platform to push off of. So how should i go about building up my weighted chin strength? Latly, I have been doing rows 3 times a week for 3-6 sets of 6-8 reps. Should I keep the rows and put weighted chins in as a second back exercise?
Thanks
Will42[/quote]
I read an interesting article by Charles Poliquin on this subject a while back where he basically said what beefcake is implying to you - work your way up to weighted chin up’s. What he said in the article was to start off with a spotter assisting you on chins by slightly supporting both ankles. By the time you can do 12 reps this way, work your way up to the spotter assisting w/ either one ankle or slight support around your waist. After you can do 12 that way, you’re ready for body chins. Master that the same way and then move onto weighted chins.
Also change up your grip from the traditional supinated grip (palms facing up) to a semi-supinated (palms facing each other) or pronated (facing down) to emphasize different muscle groups along your back every 3-4 weeks to prevent adaptation.
Have fun with chins, it was an excellent way for me to rehab a shoulder dislocation (along with KB military presses and TGU’s).
Ummmm… What is your 1RM on weighted chins right now?
I can use 60%BW (90lbs, I weigh 145) and hope to get a one arm in the next two months… I found the greatest progress on chins came when I simply chinned nad used a lot of volume (I tried to get 60 in a workout… after this I managed to get two or three -fast negative though- with 55 lbs, before I was hardly able to do a few with my bodyweight…). O ryou can use Pavel’s GTG, especially if you didn’t chin too much before.
This is going to be kind of lengthy, hope you enjoy reading…
I"m working my way up to the same goal except that I weigh less (for now).
I use the Westside method of Max Effort days to build up for heavy vertical pulling. I’m ridiculously fast as it is, and don’t weigh too much so I’m use the Repetition exercises rather than DE work.
Microcycle for RE Pullup work:
Week 1: 50 pullups as many sets as necessary
Week 2: 65 pullups as many sets as necessary
Week 3: 75-80 pullups as many sets as necessary
Week 4: Either no movement just Accessory work, or 2-3 sets of as many reps as possible.
DE Work- I use the same percentages used in a raw bench cycle. You would use those percentages with the Lat pulldown machine.
Week 1:83@50%
Week 2:82@55%
Week 3:10*2@60%
Week 4: (Same as RE method)
Or you can scrap the percetages and just do the pullups with a “Kip”(full body explosion of legs and hips used to add momentum to your pullup, really uses a fraction of your bodyweight). I’d keep the #'s the same but just ditch the percetages. This would be a good idea if you still need to build some strength in your back muscles more so than “speed”.
All maximal lifting should be balanced out by one of these two training methods. Or a period of de-loading.
One technique I use in my assistance work that really helped to increase my weighted chin poundage is to use a super set.
Barbell Rows 33-5@75-85%/ Pullups 310
or
Weighted Pullups 33-5@ 75-85%/ Seated rows 315-20@45-60%
In my assistance work I vary hand positions usually pullup variation or the v handle variation.
Whenever I cycle pullups as my ME exercise again, I’m quite certain that I can pull a huge PR, maybe not bodyweight but 10-20lbs shy of it certainly. (i’m 180ish)
For now I’m working on my overhead lifts which SUCK. Hopefully I’ll balance that out and it will skyrocket my vertical pull also.
Oh another thing you can do on RE day:
1 minute pullups.
Take 30 seconds to do the UP portion of the pullup and 30 seconds to do the negative (DOWN)portion of the pullup.
2-3 sets of 1 min pullups.
excellent exercise… easy on your CNS too.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Oh another thing you can do on RE day:
1 minute pullups.
Take 30 seconds to do the UP portion of the pullup and 30 seconds to do the negative (DOWN)portion of the pullup.
2-3 sets of 1 min pullups.
excellent exercise… easy on your CNS too.[/quote]
Another excellent exercise to develop strength is to do negative chins.
Simply strap a weight around your waist climb up to the chinning so that your chin is even with the bar, and
s l o w l y lower yourself. I use a 10 second cadence. After each rep, climb back up and do it again. I get one set of 10 with a fairly heavy weight and do this no more than 2x per week.
Doing negs allows you to use heavier weight and the thinking is that you get stronger with heavier weight. A slower cadence recruits more fibers than a faster cadence.
There are some great posts here, be sure to read Xen’s thoroughly.
For chins, the best tip I can give is … frequency.
I’ve done them up to 7 times a week, but most of the time I keep them to 2-3 times.
Vary your grip a little, and find the one in which you’re strongest, and train that position twice at least.
Vary the reps a little too, but keep them below 8 reps.
I did one or 2 sets of my max number of reps once a week too though, it helped building my stability in the chin.
If you’re able to do them, do hanging pikes(without bending arms or legs, hanging from a chinning bar and touch your feet with it)
They help a great deal.
Be sure to do one really heavy day, around 2-3 reps. Below 2 reps I find that my shoulders and elbows begin to suffer. Do a bunch of sets of those.
For the record, I recently did 4 chins with 115 on me, and my last attempt at a max number was 43 in the supinated grip, from a dead hang.
Also for the record, I am in love with chins and dips.
Are there any people here member of the muscle-up club by the way ?
I first started doing chins when I was a runner. I was a fat kid growing up and started running in 8th grade. By 9th grade I was skinny. I still couldn’t do a chin. I would do negatives and static hangs 5 days per week. Eventually, I was able to do one, then the chins got a lot easier.
beef
[quote]teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
Oh another thing you can do on RE day:
1 minute pullups.
Take 30 seconds to do the UP portion of the pullup and 30 seconds to do the negative (DOWN)portion of the pullup.
2-3 sets of 1 min pullups.
excellent exercise… easy on your CNS too.
Another excellent exercise to develop strength is to do negative chins.
Simply strap a weight around your waist climb up to the chinning so that your chin is even with the bar, and
s l o w l y lower yourself. I use a 10 second cadence. After each rep, climb back up and do it again. I get one set of 10 with a fairly heavy weight and do this no more than 2x per week.
Doing negs allows you to use heavier weight and the thinking is that you get stronger with heavier weight. A slower cadence recruits more fibers than a faster cadence.[/quote]
Heavy Weighted negative chins are a great idea. I’d put them on a ME day if you use a conjugate type training method.
Also you can do 1 arm negatives (Like the negative portion of a one arm pullup).
Not neccessarily true.
Many heavy benchers say to work the back in the same plane as bench. This means doing heavier bent-over rows. Personally, weighted pullups are one of my favorite exercises so I’ve had to adjust my workouts based on this advice.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
A slower cadence recruits more fibers than a faster cadence.
Not neccessarily true.
[/quote]
Generally speaking, this is the case. In the chinning example, if one were to do a chin up concentrically, then drop to a hang position, that person is losing out on a lot of muscle recruitment (the entire eccentric movement). If, however, he slows down the lift and lets his muscles resist gravity, more muscle fibre would be needed.
Or, if one uses momentum to lift, then there will be a period of time during that lift where the muscle doesn’t need to recruit all the necessary fibres. The question is: is the muscle being utilized enough to initiate momentum for maximum fibre recruitment?
On the other hand, I am not advocating Super Slow, having never tried it, I have heard it can be effective.
I have, however, tried the 30/30 chin and dip and HATED it for only one reason 
It kicked my butt.
Tyler
A little off topic question (please bear with me):
Are chin ups recommended when you have a problems with a shoulder rotator cuff??
I find that at times, when I am stretching my lats in the eccentric part of the movement, that my left shoulder kinda “clicks” as though its shifted position to allow the movement to continue.
I would really love to do chins, as they are IMHO the best exercise to increase back width, but not at the expense of an injured left shoulder.
Any comments and/or advice?
Chirag
[quote]teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
A slower cadence recruits more fibers than a faster cadence.
Not neccessarily true.
Generally speaking, this is the case. In the chinning example, if one were to do a chin up concentrically, then drop to a hang position, that person is losing out on a lot of muscle recruitment (the entire eccentric movement). If, however, he slows down the lift and lets his muscles resist gravity, more muscle fibre would be needed.
Or, if one uses momentum to lift, then there will be a period of time during that lift where the muscle doesn’t need to recruit all the necessary fibres. The question is: is the muscle being utilized enough to initiate momentum for maximum fibre recruitment?
On the other hand, I am not advocating Super Slow, having never tried it, I have heard it can be effective.
I have, however, tried the 30/30 chin and dip and HATED it for only one reason It kicked my butt.
Tyler[/quote]
i have to agree here. Slow reps for chins and dips, both on the eccentric and concentric part of the movement can really be a pain in the ass, and the muscles you are working ofcourse 
Right now I can do 12 pull-ups pretty easy, and my rep max is a 45lb plate. On an interesting side note I can do more pull-ups with a mixed grip, than a normal grip. Do you guys think that 5x5 would be good for working these as a 3rd exercise on upper body days?
thanks
Will42
[quote]teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
A slower cadence recruits more fibers than a faster cadence.
Not neccessarily true.
Generally speaking, this is the case. In the chinning example, if one were to do a chin up concentrically, then drop to a hang position, that person is losing out on a lot of muscle recruitment (the entire eccentric movement). If, however, he slows down the lift and lets his muscles resist gravity, more muscle fibre would be needed.
Or, if one uses momentum to lift, then there will be a period of time during that lift where the muscle doesn’t need to recruit all the necessary fibres. The question is: is the muscle being utilized enough to initiate momentum for maximum fibre recruitment?
On the other hand, I am not advocating Super Slow, having never tried it, I have heard it can be effective.
I have, however, tried the 30/30 chin and dip and HATED it for only one reason It kicked my butt.
Tyler[/quote]
I’ll have to agree with you in this instance regarding pullups. But truthfully its the amount of force you produce that matters.
Example DE Benching, you exert the same amount of force benching 50% of ur max as you would do actually benching your max.
You recruit as many fibers as you will to be recruited.
Same example could be used for Olifts.
But again you are correct… I’m pointing to some exceptions to the rule.
So yes, generally speaking, slower cadence all the way.
[quote]chirag wrote:
A little off topic question (please bear with me):
Are chin ups recommended when you have a problems with a shoulder rotator cuff??
I find that at times, when I am stretching my lats in the eccentric part of the movement, that my left shoulder kinda “clicks” as though its shifted position to allow the movement to continue.
I would really love to do chins, as they are IMHO the best exercise to increase back width, but not at the expense of an injured left shoulder.
Any comments and/or advice?
Chirag[/quote]
There are some articles on shoulder pre/rehab…get that fixed first man.
Along with everything recommended I would suggest heavy hangs at various stages of the chin-up - bottom position, middle and at the top.
Working up to poundages above what you are intending to use for the full range motion will get tendons etc. ready for supporting such heavy loads as well as giving you the high level of grip strength that will be required.
Good Luck,
R319
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
chirag wrote:
A little off topic question (please bear with me):
Are chin ups recommended when you have a problems with a shoulder rotator cuff??
I find that at times, when I am stretching my lats in the eccentric part of the movement, that my left shoulder kinda “clicks” as though its shifted position to allow the movement to continue.
I would really love to do chins, as they are IMHO the best exercise to increase back width, but not at the expense of an injured left shoulder.
Any comments and/or advice?
Chirag
There are some articles on shoulder pre/rehab…get that fixed first man. [/quote]
Yeah, I’ve looked into Eric Cressey’s “Cracking the Rotator Cuff Conondrum” article. Thing is, I’ve had this injury for abt a year. I believe the rotator cuff is something that if injured, is very difficult if not impossible to heal completely.
Do the exercises in the article actually work and heal the injury fully??