Weighted Chins

[Bearhawk]

[quote]chirag wrote:
A little off topic question (please bear with me):

Are chin ups recommended when you have a problems with a shoulder rotator cuff??

I find that at times, when I am stretching my lats in the eccentric part of the movement, that my left shoulder kinda “clicks” as though its shifted position to allow the movement to continue.

I would really love to do chins, as they are IMHO the best exercise to increase back width, but not at the expense of an injured left shoulder.

Any comments and/or advice?

Chirag[/quote]

had rotator cuff surgery 4 yrs ago . Loved PULL UPS actually doing weigthed pulls made my rotator feel better. Even now It’s still my favourite. Can do 6 reps 75lbs attached to my 200lb @ 6’2’ frame

[jsbrook]

Slight highjack-do you guys think it’s better to do weighted dips and chins with a weight belt or weighted vest? I had never used a vest before but borrowed my friend’s the other day. It felt much less cumbersome and more comfortable. Anybody have an idea how much a decent one costs? Think it’s worth it?

[Chris_Aus]

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:

Microcycle for RE Pullup work:

Week 1: 50 pullups as many sets as necessary
Week 2: 65 pullups as many sets as necessary
Week 3: 75-80 pullups as many sets as necessary
Week 4: Either no movement just Accessory work, or 2-3 sets of as many reps as possible.

[/quote]

as many sets as possible for 50 reps?

wouldnt that be 50 sets?

do you mean as few sets as possible

[Chris_Aus]

[quote]teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
A slower cadence recruits more fibers than a faster cadence.

Not neccessarily true.

Generally speaking, this is the case. In the chinning example, if one were to do a chin up concentrically, then drop to a hang position, that person is losing out on a lot of muscle recruitment (the entire eccentric movement). If, however, he slows down the lift and lets his muscles resist gravity, more muscle fibre would be needed.

Or, if one uses momentum to lift, then there will be a period of time during that lift where the muscle doesn’t need to recruit all the necessary fibres. The question is: is the muscle being utilized enough to initiate momentum for maximum fibre recruitment?

On the other hand, I am not advocating Super Slow, having never tried it, I have heard it can be effective.

I have, however, tried the 30/30 chin and dip and HATED it for only one reason It kicked my butt.

Tyler[/quote]

its not true at all

firstly relaxing them for part of the lift doesnt have to do with the amount of fibres but the duration that they contract…

secondly dynamic change of direction uses the SSC which will help recruit more muscle fibres…

also lifting something as fast as possible is a way of recruiting more musculature…

put it simple the faster you move something or the closer to maximal it is the more motor units are being used

[Chris_Aus]

[quote]Will42 wrote:
Right now I can do 12 pull-ups pretty easy, and my rep max is a 45lb plate. On an interesting side note I can do more pull-ups with a mixed grip, than a normal grip. Do you guys think that 5x5 would be good for working these as a 3rd exercise on upper body days?
thanks
Will42[/quote]

you want to put 200lbs on your 1RM chin all for the purpose of helping your bench…

you might need to rethink your goals

[Xen_Nova]

there was a T-Jack on a really great weighted vest months back. Check that out if you can it had a lot off good info.

Personally I don’t think I’m ever changing from a dipping belt.

Unless I can convince some pretty young thing to straddle me and let me do pullups/dips/pushups with her.

[jsbrook]

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
there was a T-Jack on a really great weighted vest months back. Check that out if you can it had a lot off good info.

Personally I don’t think I’m ever changing from a dipping belt.

Unless I can convince some pretty young thing to straddle me and let me do pullups/dips/pushups with her.[/quote]

Thanks-I’ll look for it. Or maybe I’ll just get my girlfriend to come to the gym with me to use as a vest. hehe

[teedog]

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
teedog wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
A slower cadence recruits more fibers than a faster cadence.

Not neccessarily true.

Generally speaking, this is the case. In the chinning example, if one were to do a chin up concentrically, then drop to a hang position, that person is losing out on a lot of muscle recruitment (the entire eccentric movement). If, however, he slows down the lift and lets his muscles resist gravity, more muscle fibre would be needed.

Or, if one uses momentum to lift, then there will be a period of time during that lift where the muscle doesn’t need to recruit all the necessary fibres. The question is: is the muscle being utilized enough to initiate momentum for maximum fibre recruitment?

On the other hand, I am not advocating Super Slow, having never tried it, I have heard it can be effective.

I have, however, tried the 30/30 chin and dip and HATED it for only one reason It kicked my butt.

Tyler

its not true at all

firstly relaxing them for part of the lift doesnt have to do with the amount of fibres but the duration that they contract…

secondly dynamic change of direction uses the SSC which will help recruit more muscle fibres…

also lifting something as fast as possible is a way of recruiting more musculature…

put it simple the faster you move something or the closer to maximal it is the more motor units are being used[/quote]

I am not tracking on this one. With all due respect, to say “it’s not true at all” is like saying 2+2=5. It does boil down to simple math. It seems like you contradict yourself when you say, “relaxing them for part of the lift doesnt have to do with the amount of fibres but the duration that they contract…” If you are relaxing them, then fibres aren’t being recruited, correct? If you are pulling with great force, then you are using momentum to lift the weight and, in the case of the chins on the eccentric, you aren’t using any muscles. The amount of force that is exerted on the shoulders and biceps isn’t necessarily healthy.

Further, spending a fraction of a second stopping at the bottom cannot, in my opinion, equate to lowering the body with 45 lbs. strapped on for 10 seconds.

As for lifting as fast as you can, it is a way of recruiting musculature(?), not the most effective. When you say, “closer to maximal” do you mean maximal speed or weight. In order to grow in strength size, you will need weight. The more weight you lift the stronger, and hopefully bigger, you get. With more weight comes slower movement. You still want to contract the muscle quicker but with a slower overall movement.

As an aside from the original post, back in the '70’s there was a High School Olympic lifting team in Florida that worked out with negative only workouts and using slow, controlled movements. They want on to win a record number of tournaments over a number of years.

Although I am not going to be so arrogant as to say “it’s not true at all”, I will say that I disagree with most of what you have posted.

Tyler

[Will42]

Chris,
I might have over stated my love of pull-ups/chins, but the point I wanted to get across is that I need a stronger back, and weighted pull-ups seem the way to go. I tried my one rep tonight and it was 60 lbs plus my bodyweight. 190 more to go !!!

Tyler,
So are you talking about C.A.T?

Will42

[TNT_CDN]

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
For the record, I recently did 4 chins with 115 on me, and my last attempt at a max number was 43 in the supinated grip, from a dead hang.

Also for the record, I am in love with chins and dips.

Are there any people here member of the muscle-up club by the way ?[/quote]

What is the muscle up club.

TNT

[John_DeVito]

[quote]Will42 wrote:
Chris,
I might have over stated my love of pull-ups/chins, but the point I wanted to get across is that I need a stronger back, and weighted pull-ups seem the way to go. I tried my one rep tonight and it was 60 lbs plus my bodyweight. 190 more to go !!!

Tyler,
So are you talking about C.A.T?

Will42[/quote]

So you want to do 250lbs plus your body weight???

So you want to do a pull-up withe 5 45lb plates and a 25lb plate on a dip belt?

DAMN! I would like to see a pick of that!

I’m 210lbs and I can do about 5 pull-ups with 70lbs on a belt, but I doubt I can ever reach that number…

GOOD LUCK!

[KombatAthlete]

[quote]TNT-CDN wrote:
Leeuwer wrote:
For the record, I recently did 4 chins with 115 on me, and my last attempt at a max number was 43 in the supinated grip, from a dead hang.

Also for the record, I am in love with chins and dips.

Are there any people here member of the muscle-up club by the way ?

What is the muscle up club.

TNT[/quote]

A Crossfit club for all their members that can do a muscle-up.

[graphicsMan]

[quote]John DeVito wrote:
Will42 wrote:
Chris,
I might have over stated my love of pull-ups/chins, but the point I wanted to get across is that I need a stronger back, and weighted pull-ups seem the way to go. I tried my one rep tonight and it was 60 lbs plus my bodyweight. 190 more to go !!!

Tyler,
So are you talking about C.A.T?

Will42

So you want to do 250lbs plus your body weight???

So you want to do a pull-up withe 5 45lb plates and a 25lb plate on a dip belt?

DAMN! I would like to see a pick of that!

I’m 210lbs and I can do about 5 pull-ups with 70lbs on a belt, but I doubt I can ever reach that number…

GOOD LUCK!
[/quote]

If you doubt it… you won’t.

[Vlad1]

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
Are there any people here member of the muscle-up club by the way ?[/quote]

If I did a pull up on a bar, then put one of my elbows over, than the second and then my chest and then pushed myself(all without using my legs), is that considered a muscle-up? It’s not a nice fluent move like the power straight(exrx.net), but I hope it’s a start…

[ZEB]

[quote]Black Thorn wrote:
Leeuwer wrote:
Are there any people here member of the muscle-up club by the way ?

If I did a pull up on a bar, then put one of my elbows over, than the second and then my chest and then pushed myself(all without using my legs), is that considered a muscle-up? It’s not a nice fluent move like the power straight(exrx.net), but I hope it’s a start…[/quote]

Yea, it’s a start, but as you know it is one fluid movement. But you do have a beginning and I congratulate you for that!

[Xen_Nova]

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:

as many sets as possible for 50 reps?

wouldnt that be 50 sets?

do you mean as few sets as possible[/quote]

I said as many sets as necessary.

I can do 21 pullups in a row, but after that I’m dropping to maybe 6,6, 8,4,3…etc all the way till I hit 50.

[Xen_Nova]

I could do muscle ups when I was younger, I dont know about now. I’d like to think that I’m stronger so that I can :-p

I can do them on a pullup bar don’t have any rings to try them on currently

[Chris_Aus]

okay i wasnt clear

someone stated a slower cadence recruits more fibres than a faster cadence…

This is not true.

The number of muscle fibres and force are related…

Now a slower cadence given the same weight is a result of less force being produced and therefore less muscle fibres being recruited. By definition if more muscle fibres were being recruited you would move faster…

The slow eccentric will use some more muscle fibres than a fast unresisted eccentric for the first half BUT during the slowing down transition and concentric phases the muscle recruitment will be MUCH higher as the forces will be MUCH higher and overall motor unit involement will also be much higher.

The point is you still have to catch it at the bottom Because The faster it’s moving and the less time you have to decellerate it the greater the force required.

Think about what happens when you step on some scales slowly vs when you jump on them…

lower a weight to the floor slowly
drop the same weight onto the floor.
which hit the floor with more force???

As for lifting as fast as you can, it is a way of recruiting musculature(?), not the most effective.

it is the most effective. YOu later talk about using more weight and that causing slower movements ofcourse that is true but to increase recruitment you should be trying to move the weight whatever intensity that may be as fast as you can.

put it this way, for any given weight the faster you move it the more units you will recruit.

[teedog]

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
okay i wasnt clear

someone stated a slower cadence recruits more fibres than a faster cadence…

This is not true.

The number of muscle fibres and force are related…

Now a slower cadence given the same weight is a result of less force being produced and therefore less muscle fibres being recruited. By definition if more muscle fibres were being recruited you would move faster…

The slow eccentric will use some more muscle fibres than a fast unresisted eccentric for the first half BUT during the slowing down transition and concentric phases the muscle recruitment will be MUCH higher as the forces will be MUCH higher and overall motor unit involement will also be much higher.

The point is you still have to catch it at the bottom Because The faster it’s moving and the less time you have to decellerate it the greater the force required.

Think about what happens when you step on some scales slowly vs when you jump on them…

lower a weight to the floor slowly
drop the same weight onto the floor.
which hit the floor with more force???

As for lifting as fast as you can, it is a way of recruiting musculature(?), not the most effective.

it is the most effective. YOu later talk about using more weight and that causing slower movements ofcourse that is true but to increase recruitment you should be trying to move the weight whatever intensity that may be as fast as you can.

put it this way, for any given weight the faster you move it the more units you will recruit.[/quote]

Will: what is C.A.T.?

Chris, let me discuss this point by point, if I may. Some of my thoughts/opinions will certainly make me unpopular on this site, but at least notorious.

1)Slower cadence does recruit more fibre per set, whereas, explosive/ ballistic training (EBT) will certainly give more force for the first few exercises, up to 40-45% more;

2)With EBT, the athlete will be using lighter weights, thereby utilizing more speed. With a slower cadence, the athlete is encouraged to utilize heavier weights, therefore, slower speeds are necessary.

3)At the bottom of the EBT cycle, more muscle fibres are recruited than when momentum is in play. This is obvious. I would suggest, however, that for the fraction of a second that these fibres are employed, the muscle is NOT utilizing as many fibres as during the 4+ seconds of eccentric. Further, at the bottom end of the cycle, when the muscles exert maximum force, the tissues are at their weakest point. Probability for injury goes way up at this point. Also, is this force due to muscular energy or stored force? Most likely, stored force;

4)The faster you move, the more units you recruit. Only at the beginning and end of the movement.

Bottom line, when you use the same weight, there is little, if any, difference in total force produced between slower cadences and EBT.

For me, and the athletes that I train, a slower cadence is utilized for safety purposes. And yes, we see some serious development in strength and size.

Tyler.

[Xen_Nova]

Guys… both methods are useful.

When you stagnate with one, switch to the other.

Next topic :-p