[quote]Coach Davies wrote:
You really need to get your facts straight before posting complete lies.
In faith,
J. Davies
Founder Renegade Training International[/quote]
I’d say that the facts are pretty much straight now.
[quote]Coach Davies wrote:
fastken77 wrote:
Compare the testimonials on their websites:
www.ericcressey.com/thoseintheknow.html
Strange. There aren’t any on Davies’ site.
You want one? I used Johns combine program to get ready for a second shot at pro football (at 27, seven years after tearing up my knee and dropping out at a D1 school because of it) he was always available on the phone for help and when he was in chicago drove five hours out of his way to visit a couple renegade guys who lived in the area for a day.
After that program I ran my best 40 time ever by .2 (a 4.92), my best 5-10-5 by .1 (4.46) and did 225 33times (best by 5 reps) @ 338lbs of bw. The guy still takes my calls when I have questions about my clients and I would invite him to my wedding if I thought he had time to attend. Never met a more standup guy in this industry.
Yes I lurk here at T-Nation, rarely do i feel strongly enough about something to post but this one got me off my ass. John has said not to defend him numerous times, to just leave it alone and be above pointless debate that will never come to a resolution, but I had to speak my peace.
I appreciate your comments please drop me a line when you can. You have always known my opinion of “testimonials” as they are a peculiar marketing avenue of this era but I appreciate yours. I can recall driving in that day to train, it sure was a lot of fun. Please give “trouble” my best. As always, drop me a line sometime.
Training is first and foremost to improve the quality of person’s life, to enhance life, performance and step one is the understanding that adversity is something you overcome. Unfortunately few comprehend that and with any taste of chaos or an unstable environment in their training or life, they will not be able to respond and will succumb to the challenges that they meet.
It is inevitable and to stand at the top, you must be prepared to risk it all and fear little. Unfortunately the majority of training environments today do little to prepare athletes / individuals to be strong of mind, willing to face any obstacle and consistently whimper at the thought of the unknown. While military training has always understood this issue, ensuring it is at the foundation of their work, the general exercise public as eliminated this and unfortunately it may be the single most important element.
As a competitive athlete in three major board sports, in which I often face those thirty years younger than me, I have found this to be asset that is beyond simple measurement but some people still do not understand human will is indefensible and something that must be cultivated in training.
Once you capture that everything else is child’s play. But unfortunately in conjunction with an era that is highly un-athletic whereby physical demands are lessening and even what is considering difficult is somewhat “simple”, challenge is now something people succumb to now.
The perverse side of health and fitness is that it primarily is for those who rarely take part in physical activities outside of the pretty gym, whether that is recreational or competitive. While I am not affiliated at all with the “cross-fit” group and may disagree with their training approach at times, I admire the way that they have taught people to get outside of the chrome gym mentality and understand that adversity is something that you overcome. For that alone they should be commended on really helping people.
Unfortunately Renegade Training is often questioned for its protocols but unilaterally it is by those who have little if any experience within it. I don’t think I have ever read a negative comment from someone who actually knew my training system, read my five books, watched my DVD library much less attended my lectures.
Even more amusing is when coaches and writers within this very industry do not understand (or respect) how their employers and managers have been within my private academic mentorship program and thus there learning experience is in-fact shaped by my long career of practical application.
However such is the case in a business where sections of your lifes work is stolen by those you’d least it expect it from and sold as their own . Yet while the scientific community starts to understand and cite my training theories as the leader, it is obvious to forge a new path you do so as the first.
As a training system, it is easy to see why Renegade Training is the choice for coaches / athletes / individuals dedicated to success world-wide but not for a public afraid of hard work, afraid to be the best or afraid to add value to their life. My system promotes an all-around development plan that within a sector of such modest athletic ability few have experienced. My athletes are able to manicure their specialized skills to a finite level within a “game-condition” training atmosphere and ultimately get the tough job done where others fail.
I suppose you could say my marketing plan has been simple as it is based solely upon results and that is something my teams and athletes have done now for over 20 years. It has definitely cost me a great deal of money not to do the typical industry log-rolling event or photo op but it is something I ethically prefer.
Finally for those reading this post, which will be my final post on this forum, I wish you the best of luck and hope you capture what I have tried to get across as you make use of this forum. As a young man, I faced death very close and I suppose you could say that it wasn’t likely that I would be here today but somehow was blessed.
Through the difficult path my life took I learnt a great many lessons which are the fabric of Renegade Training.
In faith,
John Davies
Founder Renegade Training International[/quote]
I’m quoting this so that it cannot be edited. The ever-abused “log rolling” reference is bolded.
Let me say that I think Davies has done a lot of good by stressing GPP, and I really like some of the unusual exercises he has highlighted here and other places. I don’t doubt that he knows a lot more than I ever will. With that said…
[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
Hmmm…has every strength coach/writer on T-Nation told you who they’ve worked with in the past and shown you results? How many people have began their career on T-Nation as a “nobody” and eventually became a somebody in the strength and fitness community and went on to train professional, collegiate and Olympic athletes? Quite a few. But did you discount them in the beginning because they didn’t have a list of people to show you their results? Doubt it.[/quote]
The difference, Nate, is that none of the others have come on T-Nation claiming to have the NFL’s elite as clients without being able to name them. None of the others have come on T-Nation and scoffed at science while saying their clients’ success is proof enough, while not being able to quantify that success. None of the others have been quoted as claiming to have trained Ben Johnson (other than Francis,of course). None of the others have been accused half as often of ruining teams and using other people’s work without credit.
He refuses to verify the only thing that gives him credibility (his supposed success with ELITE athletes). All of the other contributors have something verifiable that lends credibility to what they say. Either degrees, personal accomplishments, testimonials from elite athletes, or even just a freakish body.
Examples:
“…scientist, with research specialty in nutrition and its impact on performance and body composition.”
“…his work for NASA at the Johnson Space Center…
…research career has involved everything from the cellular basis of muscle breakdown to work on critically ill catabolic patients. He holds certifications with the NSCA as well as USA Track and Field.”
“PhD, CSCS”
“former Taekwon-do international champion”
“recognized and certified by the National Academy of Sports Medicine, the American College of Sports Medicine, the British Association of Sports And Exercise Sciences, Kingsports International Australia, the Society for Weight Training Injury Specialists, USA Weightlifting and the Chek Insitute of Corrective High Performance Exercise Kinesiology”
“certified with distinction as a strength & conditioning specialist with the National Strength and Conditioning Association and has been recognized as a Master of Sports Sciences with the International Sports Sciences Association”
“formal academic studies in Sports Performance at West Lothian College and then progressed on to receiving an honors degree in Sports Science from Chester College, the University of Liverpool”
“faculty member at the University of Texas”
“M.A., C.S.C.S”
“a double major in Exercise Science and Sports and Fitness Management”
“holds several state, national, and world records. A mainstay in the Powerlifting USA Top 100 lifts in his weight class”
…rapidly approaching Elite status with competition bests of 540 squat, 375 bench, 617 deadlift, and 1532 total in the 165-pound weight class"
“the former number one in the world in the Highland Games, ages 45-49, broke the American record in the Weight Pentathlon, holds numerous National Championships in weightlifting and throwing”
“Current American Record Holder in Masters Weight Pentathlon”
“holds multiple graduate degrees in exercise physiology and nutrition. He has also competed successfully in regional-level sports including bodybuilding”
“completed graduate studies in Exercise Physiology”
“coached Olympic medalists in twelve different sports including the US female track and field for the Olympics 2000”
“Current clients include: Al MacInnis, St Louis Blues, Norris Trophy winner, strongest slap-shot in the NHL Joe Nieuwendyk, Dallas Stars, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, Stanley Cup winner Chris Pronger, Colorado, St. Louis Blues, winner of Norris and Hart Trophy Canadian short-track speed-skating team Nanceen Perry, World Record Holder 4 x 200 m Michelle Freeman, number 1 ranked hurdler in the World Chris Thorpe, Olympic Silver & Bronze Medalist, Double’s Luge”
“B.Sc. Kinesiology
M.Sc. Exercise Physiology”
“Clients with World Championship medals in: kayak, judo, bobsleigh, luge, alpine skiing, biathlon, power-lifting, freestyle skiing, swimming, figure skating, speed-skating short track,speed-skating long-track”
“Currently trains athletes on Detroit Red Wings, Colorado Avalanche, St. Louis Blues, Montreal Canadians, Toronto Maple Leafs, Ottawa Senators, New York Rangers, New York Islanders, Calgary Flames, Chicago Blackhawks, New Jersey Devils, Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightning”
“M.S., C.S.C.S., U.S.A.W”
“Masters in Sports Biomechanics from the Human Performance Lab at Ball State University, and has been a competitive powerlifter for the last 5 years”
“B.Sc., MSS”
“a competitive Olympic weightlifter, bodybuilder and a football coach…is completing his M.Sc. degree in exercise science and has been a research assistant in that field for the past two years”
“has a M.S. in Physiology from the University of Arizona, along with a B.S. in both Human Biology and Physical Science”
“His success is evident with personal best lifts of a 935 squat, 610-bench press, 740 deadlift and a 2205 total”
“has totaled 1400 pounds in the 198 pound weight class, and has improved in each and every meet he has attended…has coached several National champions in the Collegiate ranks, and as an assistant coach for the 2004 USA World Bench Press Team,…helped the team clinch a second and first place finish for the Men’s and Women’s teams, respectively”
[quote]
I don’t recall CW coming to T-Nation with a list of people he’s trained. Yet, he became one of the most popular and successful strength coaches on T-Nation, and he has gone on to train professional athletes. Should we discount his programs and success prior to him becoming more popular or being able to talk about athletes he’s trained? No.[/quote]
He didn’t come on here claiming to have claimed elite athletes. His credibility lies in having has a M.S. in Physiology from the University of Arizona, along with a B.S. in both Human Biology and Physical Science (along with being a big, strong bastard himself).
[quote]
The strength coaching world is not an easy one to survive in. You have to find your niche to survive. John Davies has his niche, just as all the other coaches on this site and around the world. I’m sure you consider Pavel, Furey, Zach Even-Esh and many others hucksters because they are all about marketing, self-promotion and selling of products and services. I guess you could say about others who have gone on to charge for client services and whatnot (Mike Robertson, CT, Staley, etc.).[/quote]
Only the ones who can’t verify their claims of success or don’t credit the sources of the ideas they use.
[quote]
I don’t need a strength coach to show me a list of professional athletes he’s trained to know that his stuff works. I’ve actually used it and had great results, just like I’ve had with other strength coaches in the past. But RT works best for me and gives me everything I want.[/quote]
There is a world of difference in improving the strength and conditioning of a 5’4", 155lb. guy who might have played high school sports (did you?) and improving the performance of elite athletes. Even the goofball trainers at Bally’s can get “results” with average people.
[quote]
I guess some people need that. I don’t. I know that I’ve used the programs myself and they worked. I could care less if a pro athlete used them and made great strides. If you think about it, is it the coach that makes the athlete successful? [/quote]
Ask the man:
“Actually I do feel that my athlete’s success in competition has to do with what I’ve done and that has been the mark of my career.”
[quote] Most pro, collegiate and Olympic athletes are gifted to begin with. They can use any sort of training program and make progress if they are willing to work hard enough.
We all know that many of them don’t work as hard as they could/should. Some eat like crap, skip meals, etc. Some do everything wrong, but they still succeed. Then, someone comes along and gets everything more structured in their nutrition and training and all of a sudden, they make a huge leap in their game/success. So, was it the athlete or the coach/training program?[/quote]
You really think it would be easier to get a 10% improvement in speed or strength or vertical jump out of someone who is already an elite athlete than some average person? No way.
[quote]
So, does someone like John Davies need to list all these successful players and whatnot and take credit for where they are?[/quote]
Just one would be a start.
[quote]
Or maybe he just helped them find their way and they became a better player because they put in the work and discipline needed to excel. [/quote]
Even if that is all it was, why don’t these supposed elite athletes acknowledge his role in their success? If(as we’ve established) he’s all about the cash, why doesn’t he mention them.
Compare the marketing power of saying Nate Dogg has had results with Renegade to saying these players will speak for my effectiveness:
Brandon Short,
linebacker Carolina Panthers
David Diehl,
offensive lineman New York Giants
Dhani Jones,
linebacker Philadelphia Eagles
Corey Smith,
3rd baseman Cleveland Indians
First round draft pick (2000)
Dan Klecko
New England Patriots
Mark DeRosa,
3rd baseman Atlanta Braves
Mark Popovic
2nd round draft pick Anaheim Mighty Ducks
Vinny Ciurciu,
linebacker /special teams standout
Carolina Panthers
Jim Burt, Jr.
University of Miami 1st baseman, captain
Mark DeRosa,
3rd baseman Atlanta Braves
Carlyle Holiday,
wide receiver Arizona Cardinals
Vito Chiaravalloti,
1st baseman Toronto Blue Jays
Augie Hoffmann,
guard New Orleans Saints
Rich Scanlon,
linebacker Kansas City Chiefs
EC,
I’ve never met Coach Davies or you (until I go to your seminar in July at least), and obviously I don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes so I can’t comment on that.
It’s dissapointing that this whole fiasco caused Davies to leave the site because it seems like he had some interesting things to say.
However, I just hope that this debate (or any others like it that are bound to pop up from time to time) does not cause you to leave T-Nation. I’m sure I speak for many on this board when I say that I greatly value both the articles you publish on the site and the time you take in your Q&A to answer questions for free.
Just my .02
balbos opinion-
John Davies is a great training expert.
Eric Cressey is a great training expert.
i have read articles written by both of them.great knowledge.
guys,i started this thread for one purpose–I WANT TO READ MORE ARTICLES WRITTEN BY John Davies ON THIS SITE!
please support me on this one!
[quote]BALBOS wrote:
balbos opinion-
John Davies is a great training expert.
Eric Cressey is a great training expert.
i have read articles written by both of them.great knowledge.
guys,i started this thread for one purpose–I WANT TO READ MORE ARTICLES WRITTEN BY John Davies ON THIS SITE!
please support me on this one!
[/quote]
Go to bodybuilding dot com or do a google search for Coach John Davies. You will find countless articles that he’s written. I printed out as many articles as I could in one day and put them in a 3 inch binder. There was enough “free” information there that I’m still going through it a year later and re-reading his work.
John Davies is brilliant, and we’re only getting a VERY one-sided, carefully crafted story. One that sounds a bit like Dr. Evil defending #2. There IS more to this than what Eric or anyone else that is affiliated with T-Nation is willing to let get out; however, it’s not my place to drag this out. John has taken the high road, and even if he did give you the truth of the matter, it would most likely not get published on this site. Duh, just think about that. I mean how many times have I had posts not make it to this site because it may not have been favorable to the “mission” of T-Nation? Answer: Countless. I can almost promise you that this very post will be “edited” my a mod.
I was too, once a blind follower of T-Nation, but I’ve grown since then. I can only hope that we can all look back on this and realize that we have all grown. That doesn’t take away from what T-Nation has done for me. They have been an incredible gateway of learning for me over the last 7 years. However, there have been dramatic changes in those 7 years, and some just aren’t for the better.
In health,
Jack
[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
I mean how many times have I had posts not make it to this site because it may not have been favorable to the “mission” of T-Nation? Answer: Countless. I can almost promise you that this very post will be “edited” my a mod.[/quote]
I’ll bet I’ve had just as many, if not more edited or refused.
[quote]
I was too, once a blind follower of T-Nation, but I’ve grown since then. [/quote]
You’ve just changed who you blindly follow. That’s not real growth.
[quote]Chris Arp wrote:
We continue to fail to understand that there are 2 absolutes: genetics and scientific evidence! [/quote]
Both of which can be manipulated in some form; Data can be and is reported and manipulated every day to say what those with an agenda want it to say. (See latest government nutrition data).
In no way do I think Eric does this, and I have the utmost respect for his research and ability to interpret data, as well as make it practical and applicable to the average gym rat. But to say scientific evidence is absolute is inaccurate IMO…
I don’t know if it is the nature of this industry or if it is just the flowing testosterone but there sure seems to be a lot of bridges burned on this website.
[quote]doogie wrote:
You’ve just changed who you blindly follow. That’s not real growth.
[/quote]
How in the hell do you gather that? I don’t blindly follow anyone. I follow wisdom from many coaches and mentors in my life, but I’m curious as to where you can gather that I have every blindly followed anyone?
You need to know some facts before you start laying down idiotic statements like that.
[quote]. John has taken the high road, and even if he did give you the truth of the matter, it would most likely not get published on this site. Duh, just think about that. I mean how many times have I had posts not make it to this site because it may not have been favorable to the “mission” of T-Nation? Answer: Countless. I can almost promise you that this very post will be “edited” my a mod.
I was too, once a blind follower of T-Nation, but I’ve grown since then. I can only hope that we can all look back on this and realize that we have all grown. That doesn’t take away from what T-Nation has done for me. They have been an incredible gateway of learning for me over the last 7 years. However, there have been dramatic changes in those 7 years, and some just aren’t for the better.
In health,
Jack[/quote]
That’s right people; everything you write and post on this site is cut, edited and pasted by the mods. (I’m not even sure if I wrote this) It’s an Orwell design of world domination, not T-Nation, but T-Universe! (All coaches are equal, but some coaches are more equal than others.) First it’s the old skateboard dude, then the fat from Dave Tate-- where will it end!? (now we know the fate of Professor X…) So don’t think, don’t write, don’t post, because really you are puppets playing right into their callused hands. How do I know? Because Jack said so.
But perhaps there’s another simpler reason the mods have edited some of your posts, I mean isn’t that what most people do with garbage, throw it away?
[quote]lizard king wrote:
. John has taken the high road, and even if he did give you the truth of the matter, it would most likely not get published on this site. Duh, just think about that. I mean how many times have I had posts not make it to this site because it may not have been favorable to the “mission” of T-Nation? Answer: Countless. I can almost promise you that this very post will be “edited” my a mod.
I was too, once a blind follower of T-Nation, but I’ve grown since then. I can only hope that we can all look back on this and realize that we have all grown. That doesn’t take away from what T-Nation has done for me. They have been an incredible gateway of learning for me over the last 7 years. However, there have been dramatic changes in those 7 years, and some just aren’t for the better.
In health,
Jack
That’s right people; everything you write and post on this site is cut, edited and pasted by the mods. (I’m not even sure if I wrote this) It’s an Orwell design of world domination, not T-Nation, but T-Universe! (All coaches are equal, but some coaches are more equal than others.) First it’s the old skateboard dude, then the fat from Dave Tate-- where will it end!? (now we know the fate of Professor X…) So don’t think, don’t write, don’t post, because really you are puppets playing right into their callused hands. How do I know? Because Jack said so.
But perhaps there’s another simpler reason the mods have edited some of your posts, I mean isn’t that what most people do with garbage, throw it away?
[/quote]
That was cute.
[quote]lizard king wrote:
But perhaps there’s another simpler reason the mods have edited some of your posts, I mean isn’t that what most people do with garbage, throw it away?
[/quote]
The rest of the story is, most of my edited responses are when I don’t have a favorable opinion of a supplement that Biotest is selling. I’ve had a lot of stuff yanked completely (or never made it to a post), when I’ve tried to offer an objective opinion about some of Biotest’s hottest selling sups. In other cases, my posts get edited when I try to offer advice to a person and send them to a site that may have some further beneficial information. The mod usually has the courtesy of sending me a PM to explain that the linked to site may be a supplement sales competitor, so they have to edit. However, you can see that they have reason to keep themselves in somewhat of a favorable light, especially when it comes to supplements.
Please understand that I don’t fault them for that. I just want the readers to understand that there are truths that will never make it to any of our forum posts. Take that for what it is, and keep the cynicism to dull roar.
[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
lizard king wrote:
But perhaps there’s another simpler reason the mods have edited some of your posts, I mean isn’t that what most people do with garbage, throw it away?
The rest of the story is, most of my edited responses are when I don’t have a favorable opinion of a supplement that Biotest is selling. I’ve had a lot of stuff yanked completely (or never made it to a post), when I’ve tried to offer an objective opinion about some of Biotest’s hottest selling sups. In other cases, my posts get edited when I try to offer advice to a person and send them to a site that may have some further beneficial information. The mod usually has the courtesy of sending me a PM to explain that the linked to site may be a supplement sales competitor, so they have to edit. However, you can see that they have reason to keep themselves in somewhat of a favorable light, especially when it comes to supplements.
Please understand that I don’t fault them for that. I just want the readers to understand that there are truths that will never make it to any of our forum posts. Take that for what it is, and keep the cynicism to dull roar.[/quote]
No shit. It is a business. Do you think that the free articles and the contributors are supported by every post you make?
Would you like a third party walking into your place of business and promoting someone else’s product? Probably not. If you expect this site to be anything more than a way to drum up more business (a damn good and informative one by the way), you sir are very naive and must have a tough time in the real world.
If you have a recommendation for a product that isn’t Biotest, PM it to the person, it isn’t rocket science
[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
I mean how many times have I had posts not make it to this site because it may not have been favorable to the “mission” of T-Nation? Answer: Countless. I can almost promise you that this very post will be “edited” my a mod.[/quote]
The above statement was not favorable to T-Nation yet it was posted.
I think you owe the mods and T-Nation an apology.
[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
John Davies is brilliant, and we’re only getting a VERY one-sided, carefully crafted story. One that sounds a bit like Dr. Evil defending #2. There IS more to this than what Eric or anyone else that is affiliated with T-Nation is willing to let get out; however, it’s not my place to drag this out. John has taken the high road, and even if he did give you the truth of the matter, it would most likely not get published on this site.
[/quote]
Maybe it’s just a personal preferance, and of course everyone is allowed their own opinion, but I can’t stand when people do this. I do not see this as “taking the high road” when you bring an issue to light, then allow no further explanation. Maybe it would get edited, maybe not? You said yourself it is not your place and you werent going to try to explain that “other side”.
Well why did you bring it up than? It’s like when you were young and a buddy tells you “I have a secret”. And then you ask him what it is, but he can’t tell you because he swore not too. What was the point of bringing it up? I am not pretending to know much if any of the facts of this whole “deal” outside of what has been published on this site, and possibly one other, but if you have something factual to add, try and add it.
Don’t just say “guy’s there is a great explanation out there…But we’re all too honorable to give it”. It just seems like the true, honorable thing to do would have been tell his/your side of the story once, and let it be, rather than just tip-toe around it, and have us trust that their is a whole 'nother side to this story than what we have heard.
In confusion,
Pat
[quote]TDog305 wrote:
If you have a recommendation for a product that isn’t Biotest, PM it to the person, it isn’t rocket science[/quote]
i recommend sanka.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
jackzepplin wrote:
I mean how many times have I had posts not make it to this site because it may not have been favorable to the “mission” of T-Nation? Answer: Countless. I can almost promise you that this very post will be “edited” my a mod.
The above statement was not favorable to T-Nation yet it was posted.
I think you owe the mods and T-Nation an apology.[/quote]
Actually that post is probably favorable to T-Nation. if you think about it this shows they don’t block all things that are in any way anti T-Nation. It takes away a bit from his side i.e. they block all posts with any bad tilt to T-Nation, they can then claim they are only blocking posts to other competing products and boards.
Also if they blocked all posts that were not favorable everyone would quickly figure it out and be quite angry and dissapointed in the site. If they are only censoring posts that are about other products then really thats fine this entire site is a marketing tool–A very good one. If they want to continue to control that tool and not allow discussion of competeing products on their board thats is completely understandable.
I don’t think they are doing things to censor comments other then this but it is possible. I am sure the board has gotten more censorship since it’s inception but that is the nature of all things, once something is seen to have value people want to control it. Just my Ramblings Between classes. Ben
[quote]swivel wrote:
TDog305 wrote:
If you have a recommendation for a product that isn’t Biotest, PM it to the person, it isn’t rocket science
i recommend sanka.
[/quote]
LOL
where did Davies mention Mike Robertson?