[quote]swivel wrote:
i’m with sxio on this one. the way i read it cressey had an axe to grind. and his response, not davies, was the one which was too emotional- though he used his supreme technical knowledge to express it.
even assuming for argument he was entirely correct, the way he layed it down was arrogant, allowed no room for learning (davies’, cressey’s, or ours) and merely proceeded to lay the smack down. great if this were a fight, but this was an academic discussion -the result of which is supposedly to arrive at a greater consensus for the good of everyone.
instead what we get from this is davies doesn’t post here anymore(a loss by my scoring), and another crop of posters are equating on-line discussion with chuck and tito.
[/quote]
I agree with Swivel. For the record, I bought EC and MR’s DVD and it’s really good. I appreciate his and Mike’s articles and I’ve used their ideas with my own training and with my clients.
However, that forum resulted in no useful information and if it’s the reason Davies is gone, it was clearly one of the few low points in this sites history.
While I have nothing bad to say about Renegade Training, I do want to talk about marketing.
Visit Davies website and you will notice it is nothing like the man who writes here. The website screams “sk8er boyz MTV”. I don’t see how any serious athlete would log onto the Renegade Training web site and think, “Now this is the coach I’m looking for.”
[quote]Saki X wrote:
its all good man, im the same I just want to get my BF back into single digits again. Kinda miss the athletic look, had it for years(5-12% BF range-spring/summer 5-7%, autumn/winter 10-12%) before i went on a massive badly construcuted bulking phase. SHould have stuck to zanes guideline of not increasing your bweight by more then 5% during a bulkin phase. Hopefully can sort it by mid summer.[/quote]
Same here! Looking to be lean and mean by the end of June at my current rate of training.
Try doing some kbell warm up exercises, 3-4 rounds of rope work, then the weights, then the GPP in ONE day.
You’ll be gasping for air!
I used many of Chad Waterbury’s programs to get my strength/size back 1-2 years ago! It did it’s job nicely. But I want the overall package. I’m okay with losing some of my maximal strength to have it too. So RT works for me.
Whenever you are ready to hit up some RT, let me know. I’ll give you some tips and suggestions.
The main point here is that it is a huge shame that John Davies won’t be posting or contributing here any more.
This happened because of not one but both of them - whilst I mostly agree with what Cressey is saying, he also took it out of proportion for a lot of the argument and only really showed at the end that he appreciates that it is a small part of his training methodology. I do agree with him when he said that John Davies massively over-reacted in the beginning, slagging off pretty much all science research, so it was his own fault that he got in over his head and couldn’t give the scientific back-up to what is seemingly a poor part of his theory (obviously a TINY part).
Bottom line - both excellent coaches, both had a disagreement and we have lost one of them from here. Real shame.
The primary benefit I derive from reading Coach Davies articles, aside from the obvious strength and conditioning, and to me more importantly is the way he stresses strength of character and living your life in a moral and ethical manner.
I don’t agree with any Coach on everything but Cosgrove has stated before, “Absorb what is useful and reject what is not useful.” I think he stole that from someone else because he found it useful.
[quote]oboffill wrote:
Visit Davies website and you will notice it is nothing like the man who writes here. The website screams “sk8er boyz MTV”. I don’t see how any serious athlete would log onto the Renegade Training web site and think, “Now this is the coach I’m looking for.”[/quote]
I completely agree with that. The web site was changed a while back, and it did become more marketing driven, too cluttered and too focused on the “sk8r boi” theme.
I understand that extreme sports is a huge interest for Coach D., but I have issues with the web site and its approach as well.
If you don’t already know about RT and Coach D, you may be turned off by the site or find it too much of a sales springboard for a variety of products and self-promotion. But, if you really know about RT and Coach D, you know what to look for and where to go.
I believe Grant Hansen is the one that designed the site, and he’d be the one to talk to about making it better set up for real athletes and those interested in RT.
While I don’t necessarily follow specific programs from Coach Davies, and don’t agree with all his philosophies, this website is poorer for having let this shit go down.
It’s not productive for us T-fans to have the innovative thinkers gone. If nothing else, the indomitible spirit of Davies embodies everything this website should stand for.
While only a handful of people are going to know who he’s talking about here, I’m going to nip this in the bud right now.
Yes, my former employer was in the “mentorship” program; however, I must admit that in the 3 years I worked there he had little influence on me as an athlete, author or coach. Please don’t assume that just because you teach someone that your “work” transcends to all those with whom he comes in contact.
Dr. Mike is still a good friend, but I’ve come up with my own thoughts on training and coaching. In fact, if I were learning so much, wouldn’t I still be there? I’m really sorry Mike had to get involved here, but you were the one who brought this up.
John, just because I was defending my colleague doesn’t mean I was bashing you. If you have some kind of beef with me for whatever reason, or if you think I’ve somehow “stolen” any of your work, I’d love to hear it, whether it’s here or via e-mail. While I haven’t been in the industry long as yourself, I think everyone here knows I’m a straight-shooter and will go out of my way to help someone out. If you have a problem with me, please just say it versus beating around the bush.
Mike
[quote]Coach Davies wrote:
Even more amusing is when coaches and writers within this very industry do not understand (or respect) how their employers and managers have been within my private academic mentorship program and thus there learning experience is in-fact shaped by my long career of practical application. However such is the case in a business where sections of your lifes work is stolen by those you’d least it expect it from and sold as their own . [/quote]
[quote]
wesstangl wrote:
I heard he trained Bret Farve from the green bay packers. I also heard that Farve fired him after a few years cause Farve felt that felt that Davies overtrained him
Coach Davies wrote:
You really need to get your facts straight before posting complete lies.
In faith,
J. Davies
Founder Renegade Training International[/quote]
Why don’t you set the record straight. What pro-athletes from team sports do you/have you worked with?
So your testimonial amounts to using Davies’ programs to NOT make an NFL team (including practice team and NFL Europe). How much did that cost you?[/quote]
Ha Ha. No my testimony amounted to saying that with his training methods I managed to go to my tryouts bigger faster and stronger than I ever was before. (For the record it was for a CFL team and I was told I was “too old” to be a rookie and that they were hesitant about my knee even though my scores were the best they had seen in awhile at Oline. I ended up playing arena ball for awhile before hanging up the cleats. didn’t want to be that 30 year old guy still going to tryouts.) Oh yeah to answer your question, about 1/10th the cost of airfare and hotel. Thanks for asking though that’s sweet.
So your testimonial amounts to using Davies’ programs to NOT make an NFL team (including practice team and NFL Europe). How much did that cost you?
[/quote]
Why have you always been so anti-Davies or anti-Renegade?
Have you used any of the programs (not those on T-Nation, but an actual program)?
John Davies never backs up his articles with any research proven results and a quick look at his website and you will see nothing he has to say is on offer without paying.
[quote]rangerat wrote:
John Davies never backs up his articles with any research proven results and a quick look at his website and you will see nothing he has to say is on offer without paying. [/quote]
You want something for free? Read his training articles on T-Nation. You want other workouts for free? Go read the Renegade workouts that Coach Davies posted for nearly 10 weeks on the forum (they are under my favorite forum topics).
You want results? Do the programs he actually sells!
I don’t need an article with 100 references to tell me that squats, deadlifts, o-lifts and GPP will be beneficial and help me get leaner, stronger, more muscular and in better shape.
Sometimes, you just have to get off your ass and take action. Rather than reading the “research” that proves something works.
Does John Davies give a lot of answers in his posts? Not really. He’s actually quite philosophical in his responses. I think it has to do with the fact that people ask too many simple questions that they already know the answers to, or they could easily find the answers to from thousands of articles and already published research that all backs up the same thing.
I’m not saying Renegade Training is [u]THE[/u] method for everyone. I think we all know that there isn’t just one way to train. But RT does address many things that other coaches and programs don’t address. Sure, you can get a kick-ass strength training program from Westside, Staley, CW or some of the other coaches on T-Nation (or other places). But I rarely see someone put together a training program that addresses more than one or two components at the same time. And if they do, they don’t always show you how to put it all together.
I’ve tried many things over the years. I have praise for many of the writers/strength coaches on this site. I have used many of their programs and advice. But I’ve always found that RT addresses my needs. And no matter how many times I change directions, I always end up coming back. Why? Because it works.
If you haven’t followed a program and pushed yourself through it and gotten results, then maybe RT isn’t for you. It’s more than just “working out.” It’s about overcoming adversity. Not only in the workouts, but in life and many other things.
My attitude has nothing to do with credentials or testimonials. During my time at university I’ve met many academics who didn’t know anything about real life. So much for credentials. I listen to the person, not the paper hanging on their wall.
It’s very simple. I like Davies style. I don’t like Cressey’s. I think Cressey knows his stuff but I don’t like the way he comes across in his writing. I think the way Cressey was looking for a confrontation on that thread was disgusting. I meet many trainers that I don’t agree with. When I see them doing stuff I think is wrong do I run over there and have it out with them in front of their clients? Why would I? This world is big enough for them to train their way and for me to train mine. Not everyone has to agree with me or the literature. If people like my style, they will want to train with me.
And I don’t live with my parents. I’m getting married in october and have moved in with my dad to save money for the wedding. That is a parent. Mine split many years ago. This is the first time I’ve lived with one of them since I was 19. Very mature of you to bring my personal life into this. I don’t know anything about yours and I couldn’t care less.
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
What exactly does davies offer? if you dont have a work ethic you’ll never make it through his programs, if you do then you DONT NEED his programs, cuz there’s nothing special about telling people to do burpees followed by hindu squats followed by star jumps followed by …[/quote]
He’s showing ppl how to succeed. I appreciate that and find it inspiring.
Besides, it’s not what you know. It’s whether you’re willing to put your knowledge down in a form that others can read. The writers here do that. Out of these writers, we all have our favourites. I read almost everything that’s published here as you can learn from any source. However, there are certain writers who I like more due to the way they get their point across. Davies is one of them. Dan John is another. I have never read anything from either of them attacking other’s viewpoints or training styles. They seem to be comfortable with what they know. I respect that.
Coach - excellent to see you still around the traps! Take it easy.
I will comment more about this trend later…all I want to say now is that Coach Davies is a great man. I’ve never met him, but I’ve correspond with him alot v-email.
Why have you always been so anti-Davies or anti-Renegade?
Have you used any of the programs (not those on T-Nation, but an actual program)?[/quote]
If his programs on here aren’t really actual programs, what do you call them? Are they just the forum equivalent of Herbal Viagra Spam? What you are really asking is if I paid him money to get his “real” knowledge. Of course not. Until there is some evidence that his “real” programs produce results, why would I?
I’m not anti-Davies as much as I’m anti-huckster and anti-cult.
I’ve been around so many great, honest coaches my entire life that it saddens me to see shysters suceed.
Over and over Davies talks about his success speaking for itself, yet the only evidence of his success is that abortion of a website and random people on forums. I don’t doubt that his programs can help the average guy on the internet. Almost anything would. I also have no doubts he can sell. If he was selling himself as a fit 50 year old guy who can help skaters and surfers and soccer moms and average guys, I’d have no problem with him. (Off topic: How old is he anyway? T-Nation keeps saying he’s 50, but the cincy post says he was 40 in 2001.)
Instead he sells himself as someone whose “clients are among the NFL’s elite”, someone who has “has helped high school, college and NFL teams turn lead into gold-and also-rans into number one-with startling frequency”, and someone who “has been acclaimed for his work with European and South America soccer teams.” Yet no pro athletes or NFL teams defend him. Only internet groupies who’ve bought into The Code nonsense.
You can’t look at his website and for a second think he is about anything other than money. You can’t read “contact me if you have any questions” a thousand times in response to people’s QUESTIONS and not understand that he isn’t going to give anything away. Hell, even you point out that his articles don’t have “actual programs”–because those are only for the paying customers. Nothing wrong with any of that.
The problem is, why would someone so clearly in this for the money not mention SUCCESSFUL athletes or teams he’s worked with? It could only help.
He says on this site “I’m proud of my record and my professional stances on ethics”, but does not provide any actual record to be scrutinized.
“Science doesn’t tell you how my players, my teams just keep overcoming adversity and getting off the canvas to win and really that’s all I care about when it comes to my athletes production.”
Yet nobody can name ANY of these players.
Damon Griffin is one of the few athletes Davies admits training. In fact, Davies said “of all the jerseys I’ve been given, this is the only one I kept.” That’s impressive. Davies must have made a huge impact on Griffin’s career.
Damon Griffin’s NFL statistics BEFORE training with Davies: played in 21 games over 2 seasons, a total of 14 catches for 137 yards, best single game 4 catches for 36 yards.
Damon Griffin’s NFL statistics AFTER training with Davies: played in 0 games over 2 seasons, caught 0 passes for 0 yards, best single game 0 catches for 0 yards.
“…Davies, an internationally traveled strength and speed consultant, in Newport Beach, Calif. Davies, 40, has tutored football, soccer and track stars, including soccer icon Diego Maradona and Canadian sprinter Ben Johnson.”
On this site, Davies explained this by saying “Obviously, the guy [the author of the newspaper article] had seen the Simmons book.” Get real. The odds of this local sports writer stumbling across this unnamed Louie Simmons book are slim to none. I’m willing to bet not one person on this site has ever seen it. He also said, “When I learned of this, I contacted the author and asked for a retraction.” No retraction was ever printed. I’ll assume no libel suit was filed either.
To be fair, the cincypost article also mentions Davies working with receiver LaVell Boyd and running back Curtis Keaton.
Keaton’s career NFL stats (it’s unclear when he worked with Davies, so I’ll give Davies credit for all of them): played in 25 games over 5 seasons, 23 total rushes for 91 yards, season best rushes 12 (for 19 yards), season best yards 48 (on 5 rushes), 1 career reception for 9 yards.
[quote]doogie wrote:
If his programs on here aren’t really actual programs, what do you call them?[/quote]
I’d say that the programs he writes on T-Nation are for the “general” reader and fitness enthusiast who is not going to be able to handle the work in a full-fledged program (just like many of the programs all the other writers/strength coaches post). How do I know? I’ve used the actual RT programs. I’ve had my ass kicked around the block and had to overcome the overtraining because my body was not conditioned or able to handle the training right away.
Many people who visit T-Nation couldn’t jump right into one of the programs and succeed unless they already had a high level of conditioning and such. But at least by seeing/using some of the articles/programs on T-Nation, you get a feel for Renegade Training and how it works. Did I eventually adapt? Yes! Did I make gains? DEFINITELY.
Hmmm…has every strength coach/writer on T-Nation told you who they’ve worked with in the past and shown you results? How many people have began their career on T-Nation as a “nobody” and eventually became a somebody in the strength and fitness community and went on to train professional, collegiate and Olympic athletes? Quite a few. But did you discount them in the beginning because they didn’t have a list of people to show you their results? Doubt it.
I don’t recall CW coming to T-Nation with a list of people he’s trained. Yet, he became one of the most popular and successful strength coaches on T-Nation, and he has gone on to train professional athletes. Should we discount his programs and success prior to him becoming more popular or being able to talk about athletes he’s trained? No.
The strength coaching world is not an easy one to survive in. You have to find your niche to survive. John Davies has his niche, just as all the other coaches on this site and around the world. I’m sure you consider Pavel, Furey, Zach Even-Esh and many others hucksters because they are all about marketing, self-promotion and selling of products and services. I guess you could say about others who have gone on to charge for client services and whatnot (Mike Robertson, CT, Staley, etc.).
I don’t need a strength coach to show me a list of professional athletes he’s trained to know that his stuff works. I’ve actually used it and had great results, just like I’ve had with other strength coaches in the past. But RT works best for me and gives me everything I want.
I know John Davies has mentioned some of the teams and people he has worked with in the past (Clemson Tigers, Oklahoma - Cowboys, Seattle Seahawks, etc.). But does he need to give a list of every client and person in order to prove to you that he’s successful?
Maybe he should market himself differently since so many people question his abilities and who he has worked with. Maybe Renegade Training should be geared toward the general public wanting overall health and fitness and those interested in extreme sports. Oh wait, I think he already does a lot of that now.
I don’t believe in every method that John Davies uses in his programs, and I may not agree with how he runs his web site or some of the products he sells. But like Bruce Lee and Alwyn Cosgrove have said, “absorb what is useful, throw out that which is not.”
Much of what I’ve learned/used with RT works for me, and I agree with it (imagine that, lifting weights, using O-lifts, GPP, stretching and other stuff actually works and helps you achieve a variety of goals!!!) Do I use everything? No. Do I need to? No.
You’re right. You can’t contact him directly for questions anymore. Unless you go to the ProSource forum and post your questions there and send him a PM. Or, if you’ve ever bought something from him, you can easily contact him then. As he is readily available to anyone who actually buys something.
I’m not saying his articles aren’t good, but they aren’t the full programs that he sells. Do you really think that the programs/articles that any of the other coaches write on T-Nation are everything they are capable of? No. They write articles for the general reader or certain target populations, and they certainly don’t give out all their secrets and such. You actually have to pay them for that.
Have you tried any of the RT programs on T-Nation? Did you get any results?
I guess some people need that. I don’t. I know that I’ve used the programs myself and they worked. I could care less if a pro athlete used them and made great strides. If you think about it, is it the coach that makes the athlete successful? Or maybe the athlete is gifted and finds a coach that makes him work harder in order to be successful? Most pro, collegiate and Olympic athletes are gifted to begin with. They can use any sort of training program and make progress if they are willing to work hard enough.
We all know that many of them don’t work as hard as they could/should. Some eat like crap, skip meals, etc. Some do everything wrong, but they still succeed. Then, someone comes along and gets everything more structured in their nutrition and training and all of a sudden, they make a huge leap in their game/success. So, was it the athlete or the coach/training program?
Should the coach take credit for that? Not entirely. So, does someone like John Davies need to list all these successful players and whatnot and take credit for where they are? Or maybe he just helped them find their way and they became a better player because they put in the work and discipline needed to excel.
And just so everyone knows, I’m honest and trustworthy in everything I say and do. For some, I am brutally honest. I doubt you can find me ever telling a lie or being dishonest about anything I’ve ever posted or said (unless I was joking about something).
Have some of my opinions and beliefs changed over time? Of course. And if I’ve posted something a few years ago that I now think differently about, it’s probably because of that. But if someone were to question me, I would give an honest answer no matter what.
I’m not being paid or compensated in any way to talk well about John Davies, Renegade Training or anything else I’ve ever bought or used (various books, supplements, DVD’s, etc.).
For those that actually know me or have met me in person, they can account for that. I don’t hold back (although the mods may ask me to edit something I’ve said or not allow some things to go through), and I will give my opinion and beliefs on anything. Whether it’s good or bad, I will give my honest opinion/answer. There are things I like and dislike about RT. There are things I like and dislike about T-Nation. There are things I like and dislike about the many things I have bought and used whether it’s related to training and nutrition, cars, clothes, or other products and services.
No matter what, I’m always honest and trustworthy. FYI - Just in case someone wanted to question me.
