We Want John Davies

[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Haban wrote:
nalgene1832 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
no we dont.

although another written beatdown from Eric Cressey in the Authors’ Locker Room would be fun.

I missed that in the Locker Room, got a link?

I’m guessing he’s referring to this:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=552432

ouch.

OW3ND!

Although I have used (and am currently using) Renegade Training, I’ve never been down with the instability training (Indo board, indo cushion, etc.). The programs I follow also focus on pretty basic stuff (conditioning through various GPP, kbells, rope work, and weight training). The good stuff![/quote]

why would you be using the instability training methods unless your an athlete(are you?) im currently doing the Fat to Fire program, in the 1st week and its a killer. I just loved the look of it. Thanks for posting the link to the think tank article-certainly illuminating bit harsh on CD since it was only the tiniest aspect of his training philosophy but im sure he can take it.

Hell yeah-more articles from CD would be greatly appreciated(and the great Ian King) Cw and Thibs are doing great things with their work.

Sorry for rambling but has anyone done the Fat to Fire programs before? Id like some help on it-sequencing of the exercises, how did you find it, what were the results(bf), improved work capacity etc

[quote]Sxio wrote:
I’ve never read anything by Cressey since that thread didn’t make me think that he was an arrogant little prick for going after Davies the way he did. He can train his way, and let others train theirs.

Davies has much more to offer than him, and now he doesn’t write here anymore. Shittest trade in history. [/quote]

I disagree. While Mr. Davies certainly has some unique ideas, I still think Eric’s articles are more useful to common T-Nationers. In fact, Eric and Mike are my favorite authors, because their articles are always useful, down to earth and you just don’t find that information everywhere.

[quote]Sxio wrote:
I’ve never read anything by Cressey since that thread didn’t make me think that he was an arrogant little prick for going after Davies the way he did. He can train his way, and let others train theirs.

Davies has much more to offer than him, and now he doesn’t write here anymore. Shittest trade in history. [/quote]

Coming from a guy who lives with his parents, I’m sure that doesn’t really have much sting for Cressey.

Compare the testimonials on their websites:

www.renegadetraining.com/

www.ericcressey.com/thoseintheknow.html

Strange. There aren’t any on Davies’ site.

Compare credentials:

“Eric Cressey received his Master?s Degree in Kinesiology with a concentration in Exercise Science through the University of Connecticut Department of Kinesiology, the #1 ranked kinesiology graduate program in the nation. At UCONN, Eric was involved in varsity strength and conditioning and research in the human performance laboratory. Previously, Eric graduated from the University of New England with a double major in Exercise Science and Sports and Fitness Management…and will soon publish the results of his master?s thesis, ‘The effects of 10 weeks of lower-body unstable surface training on markers of athletic performance.’ He is also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS) through the National Strength and Conditioning Association.”

vs.

“John Davies sells a bunch of stuff.”

Let’s compare actual athletic accomplishments:

“As a competitive powerlifter, Eric holds several state, national, and world records. A mainstay in the Powerlifting USA Top 100 lifts in his weight class, Cressey is rapidly approaching Elite status with competition bests of 540 squat, 375 bench, 617 deadlift, and 1532 total in the 165-pound weight class.”

vs.

“John Davies is that creepy old guy in the park on the skateboard.”

[quote]doogie wrote:
Does anyone know any pro-athletes from team sports that Davies trains or has trained?

I’ve never figured out who exactly he works with. I just find things that say he “works with countless NFL players and teams”, but never any names.[/quote]

I heard he trained Bret Farve from the green bay packers. I also heard that Farve fired him after a few years cause Farve felt that felt that Davies overtrained him

[quote]Sxio wrote:
I’ve never read anything by Cressey since that thread didn’t make me think that he was an arrogant little prick for going after Davies the way he did. He can train his way, and let others train theirs.

Davies has much more to offer than him, and now he doesn’t write here anymore. Shittest trade in history. [/quote]

So you DIDNT read anything by cressey because that thread DIDNT make you think he’s an arrogant prick?

If I never got anything out of any article by EC, his mobility dvd is still well put together and quite relevant to most if not all weight trainers, and probably quite a few athletes.

What exactly does davies offer? if you dont have a work ethic you’ll never make it through his programs, if you do then you DONT NEED his programs, cuz there’s nothing special about telling people to do burpees followed by hindu squats followed by star jumps followed by …

[quote]BALBOS wrote:
I am calling all renegade T-Nation members to join me!
we want more articles of Coach Davies!

[/quote]

We do?

Why was he arrogant? Because he used science and real-world information to back up his stance versus emotion? And how are his articles not well-thougt out, informative, and immediately applicable to the majority of readers on here?

As writers we’re always interested in feedback and constructive criticism, so if you’d be willing to give that I’m sure Eric would be willing to listen. Just calling him an arrogant prick isn’t going to do much for your case.

Stay strong
MR

[quote]Sxio wrote:
I’ve never read anything by Cressey since that thread didn’t make me think that he was an arrogant little prick for going after Davies the way he did. He can train his way, and let others train theirs.

Davies has much more to offer than him, and now he doesn’t write here anymore. Shittest trade in history. [/quote]

[quote]boomerlu wrote:
I as well would like more Davies articles.

Yeah, that written beatdown by EC is interesting.

What got to me is that what originally was a friendly debate about stability training somehow got turned into a dick-waving contest.

Still, I thoroughly enjoy Coach Davies’ take no prisoners attitude and programs.[/quote]

I respect your comments and interests.

However regarding the unfortunate situation as it was never a debate as much as a set-up for a now out of business web-site. It was actually pretty obvious event that the people that operate this forum knew and didnt know how to deal with.

If someone doesnt understand the importance of instability training that what precisely are people doing with training mediums such as non-conforming objects such as Kegs / Tire’s / Bands or chains to name but a few. Oddly as people begin to understand the importance of ground contact / foot positioning and strength they may finally understand stability training.

Best of luck with your training and while I appreciate the initial request of articles from me - it won’t happen.

In faith,

J. Davies
Founder Renegade Training International

[quote]wesstangl wrote:
doogie wrote:
Does anyone know any pro-athletes from team sports that Davies trains or has trained?

I’ve never figured out who exactly he works with. I just find things that say he “works with countless NFL players and teams”, but never any names.

I heard he trained Bret Farve from the green bay packers. I also heard that Farve fired him after a few years cause Farve felt that felt that Davies overtrained him
[/quote]

You really need to get your facts straight before posting complete lies.

In faith,

J. Davies
Founder Renegade Training International

[quote]Saki X wrote:
why would you be using the instability training methods unless your an athlete(are you?)[/quote]

Many of his programs include some instability work within the entire workout (back squats followed by lunges on the indo flo cushion for example).

I don’t think you need to be an athlete (professional, collegiate, etc.) to use instability training. I may not be an athlete that competes in any particular sport, but I consider myself athletic and I want to train more like an athlete so I have all aspects of strength, conditioning, flexibility, agility, etc.

I haven’t used the programs listed on T-Nation because they are “watered” down versions of his real programs. Fat to Fire is a good introduction to a general Renegade Training program, but it’s still missing some things and is not set up the same way as a full program such as Shred, the Inner Circle program or the 16-week Fat Loss program that he sells.

And some of the other programs go much further, depending on your sport or goal.

I’ve spoken of my results with Renegade Training numerous times on the forum and backed it all up with before/after photos as well. For me, it works and works well. But there are many that complain that RT sucks and the workouts are hard, etc.

I’ve talked about some of the overtraining that occurs during some of the programs. But now that I’m familiar with RT, I know how to back off or tweak the programs so I’m not run into the ground. And no matter how far I was run into the ground, I did come back in better shape not too long afterward (with a short break or by backing off).

[quote]Coach Davies wrote:
If someone doesnt understand the importance of instability training that what precisely are people doing with training mediums such as non-conforming objects such as Kegs / Tire’s / Bands or chains to name but a few. Oddly as people begin to understand the importance of ground contact / foot positioning and strength they may finally understand stability training.[/quote]

Okay, I was wrong. I’ve done instability training because I’ve used bands, sandbags and other non-conforming objects.

I just haven’t done “some” of the things people think of when doing instability training (squatting on a Swiss ball, etc.). :wink:

[quote]Beatnik wrote:
Ive allways enjoyed John’s articles! I would even ask for the subject to be condition. As i think conditioning is an area often overlooked atleast from the view of articles published online. With just as many variables and possible approaches as hypertrophy or strength. (so there is alot of uncovered ground)

Maybe im biased, i want to do/be a little bit of everything rather then just be huge. Its also my worst area. If anyone has any links to anything he published off T-Nation id love to see it… [/quote]

I agree.

I’ve gone back and forth between being healthy and fit to being bigger and stronger (for me). Yes, I enjoyed getting bigger and stronger. But I never looked good or felt good.

My overall goal is to be athletic, lean and conditioned so that it increases my health and fitness. Any time I’ve focused on solely getting bigger/stronger, other areas were neglected.

I want my training to enhance my life. Thus, the reason I like RT. It gives me more energy, makes me look and feel good, and conditions me beyond anything else I’ve done.

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
What exactly does davies offer? if you dont have a work ethic you’ll never make it through his programs, if you do then you DONT NEED his programs, cuz there’s nothing special about telling people to do burpees followed by hindu squats followed by star jumps followed by …[/quote]

There is some truth to this. I agree that if you don’t have the work ethic and ability to overcome adversity, you won’t thrive on RT.

And sure, if you do have the work ethic, you don’t need his programs, but they sure do make it easy to put everything together into a periodized plan.

RT isn’t all about burpees followed by star jumps, etc. Sure, that is one component of the entire training program. It’s listed under GPP, and it’s something most people lack. And sure, there are other ways to increase your GPP, and RT uses many different things. However, many of the nonweighted stuff is unique to RT and in many of the programs. But it’s never the same in all programs, and again, it’s only one part of the total package.

Remember, RT focuses on more than one component. Kbell work is used as a warmup (in some programs) to get the hips ready for the work ahead (O-lifts and such). Rope work is used for agility and conditioning purposes. The weight portion of the workout builds strength, size and power using basic lifts and O-lifts along with some unique stuff that more people should try. The GPP is weighted and unweighted and uses bodyweight and other exercises to increase conditioning/work threshold. Static stretching at the end of the workout makes you feel good and helps tremendously with injury prevention and flexibility.

It’s just another method for people to reach their goals based on what they want. I want it all. I’m not focused on just getting strong or just getting big. My number one priority will always be my overall health and fitness. I also like being athletic, having a ton of energy/conditioning, and looking and feeling good.

Compare the testimonials on their websites:

www.renegadetraining.com/

www.ericcressey.com/thoseintheknow.html

Strange. There aren’t any on Davies’ site.

You want one? I used Johns combine program to get ready for a second shot at pro football (at 27, seven years after tearing up my knee and dropping out at a D1 school because of it) he was always available on the phone for help and when he was in chicago drove five hours out of his way to visit a couple renegade guys who lived in the area for a day. After that program I ran my best 40 time ever by .2 (a 4.92), my best 5-10-5 by .1 (4.46) and did 225 33times (best by 5 reps) @ 338lbs of bw. The guy still takes my calls when I have questions about my clients and I would invite him to my wedding if I thought he had time to attend. Never met a more standup guy in this industry. Yes I lurk here at T-Nation, rarely do i feel strongly enough about something to post but this one got me off my ass. John has said not to defend him numerous times, to just leave it alone and be above pointless debate that will never come to a resolution, but I had to speak my peace.

[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
Why was he arrogant? Because he used science and real-world information to back up his stance versus emotion? And how are his articles not well-thougt out, informative, and immediately applicable to the majority of readers on here?

As writers we’re always interested in feedback and constructive criticism, so if you’d be willing to give that I’m sure Eric would be willing to listen. Just calling him an arrogant prick isn’t going to do much for your case.

Stay strong
MR

Sxio wrote:
I’ve never read anything by Cressey since that thread didn’t make me think that he was an arrogant little prick for going after Davies the way he did. He can train his way, and let others train theirs.

Davies has much more to offer than him, and now he doesn’t write here anymore. Shittest trade in history.

[/quote]

i’m with sxio on this one. the way i read it cressey had an axe to grind. and his response, not davies, was the one which was too emotional- though he used his supreme technical knowledge to express it.

even assuming for argument he was entirely correct, the way he layed it down was arrogant, allowed no room for learning (davies’, cressey’s, or ours) and merely proceeded to lay the smack down. great if this were a fight, but this was an academic discussion -the result of which is supposedly to arrive at a greater consensus for the good of everyone.

instead what we get from this is davies doesn’t post here anymore(a loss by my scoring), and another crop of posters are equating on-line discussion with chuck and tito.

[quote]fastken77 wrote:
Compare the testimonials on their websites:

www.renegadetraining.com/

www.ericcressey.com/thoseintheknow.html

Strange. There aren’t any on Davies’ site.

You want one? I used Johns combine program to get ready for a second shot at pro football (at 27, seven years after tearing up my knee and dropping out at a D1 school because of it) he was always available on the phone for help and when he was in chicago drove five hours out of his way to visit a couple renegade guys who lived in the area for a day. After that program I ran my best 40 time ever by .2 (a 4.92), my best 5-10-5 by .1 (4.46) and did 225 33times (best by 5 reps) @ 338lbs of bw. The guy still takes my calls when I have questions about my clients and I would invite him to my wedding if I thought he had time to attend. Never met a more standup guy in this industry. Yes I lurk here at T-Nation, rarely do i feel strongly enough about something to post but this one got me off my ass. John has said not to defend him numerous times, to just leave it alone and be above pointless debate that will never come to a resolution, but I had to speak my peace.[/quote]

I appreciate your comments please drop me a line when you can. You have always known my opinion of “testimonials” as they are a peculiar marketing avenue of this era but I appreciate yours. I can recall driving in that day to train, it sure was a lot of fun. Please give “trouble” my best. As always, drop me a line sometime.

Training is first and foremost to improve the quality of person’s life, to enhance life, performance and step one is the understanding that adversity is something you overcome. Unfortunately few comprehend that and with any taste of chaos or an unstable environment in their training or life, they will not be able to respond and will succumb to the challenges that they meet. It is inevitable and to stand at the top, you must be prepared to risk it all and fear little. Unfortunately the majority of training environments today do little to prepare athletes / individuals to be strong of mind, willing to face any obstacle and consistently whimper at the thought of the unknown. While military training has always understood this issue, ensuring it is at the foundation of their work, the general exercise public as eliminated this and unfortunately it may be the single most important element. As a competitive athlete in three major board sports, in which I often face those thirty years younger than me, I have found this to be asset that is beyond simple measurement but some people still do not understand human will is indefensible and something that must be cultivated in training.

Once you capture that everything else is child’s play. But unfortunately in conjunction with an era that is highly un-athletic whereby physical demands are lessening and even what is considering difficult is somewhat “simple”, challenge is now something people succumb to now. The perverse side of health and fitness is that it primarily is for those who rarely take part in physical activities outside of the pretty gym, whether that is recreational or competitive. While I am not affiliated at all with the “cross-fit” group and may disagree with their training approach at times, I admire the way that they have taught people to get outside of the chrome gym mentality and understand that adversity is something that you overcome. For that alone they should be commended on really helping people.

Unfortunately Renegade Training is often questioned for its protocols but unilaterally it is by those who have little if any experience within it. I don’t think I have ever read a negative comment from someone who actually knew my training system, read my five books, watched my DVD library much less attended my lectures. Even more amusing is when coaches and writers within this very industry do not understand (or respect) how their employers and managers have been within my private academic mentorship program and thus there learning experience is in-fact shaped by my long career of practical application. However such is the case in a business where sections of your lifes work is stolen by those you’d least it expect it from and sold as their own . Yet while the scientific community starts to understand and cite my training theories as the leader, it is obvious to forge a new path you do so as the first. As a training system, it is easy to see why Renegade Training is the choice for coaches / athletes / individuals dedicated to success world-wide but not for a public afraid of hard work, afraid to be the best or afraid to add value to their life. My system promotes an all-around development plan that within a sector of such modest athletic ability few have experienced. My athletes are able to manicure their specialized skills to a finite level within a “game-condition” training atmosphere and ultimately get the tough job done where others fail. I suppose you could say my marketing plan has been simple as it is based solely upon results and that is something my teams and athletes have done now for over 20 years. It has definitely cost me a great deal of money not to do the typical industry log-rolling event or photo op but it is something I ethically prefer.

Finally for those reading this post, which will be my final post on this forum, I wish you the best of luck and hope you capture what I have tried to get across as you make use of this forum. As a young man, I faced death very close and I suppose you could say that it wasn’t likely that I would be here today but somehow was blessed. Through the difficult path my life took I learnt a great many lessons which are the fabric of Renegade Training.

In faith,

John Davies
Founder Renegade Training International

[quote]fastken77 wrote:
Compare the testimonials on their websites:

www.renegadetraining.com/

www.ericcressey.com/thoseintheknow.html

Strange. There aren’t any on Davies’ site.

You want one? I used Johns combine program to get ready for a second shot at pro football (at 27, seven years after tearing up my knee and dropping out at a D1 school because of it) he was always available on the phone for help and when he was in chicago drove five hours out of his way to visit a couple renegade guys who lived in the area for a day. After that program I ran my best 40 time ever by .2 (a 4.92), my best 5-10-5 by .1 (4.46) and did 225 33times (best by 5 reps) @ 338lbs of bw. The guy still takes my calls when I have questions about my clients and I would invite him to my wedding if I thought he had time to attend. Never met a more standup guy in this industry. Yes I lurk here at T-Nation, rarely do i feel strongly enough about something to post but this one got me off my ass. John has said not to defend him numerous times, to just leave it alone and be above pointless debate that will never come to a resolution, but I had to speak my peace.[/quote]

Thanks for posting that. I have never met the man or done any of his programs except his renagade jump rope one.

That being said I find his writing inspirational and I often incorporate some of his stuff into my routines.

I am not into some of the more unusual stability training but Davies is much more than just that. I understand his interest though. The man still skateboards!

T-Nation is not as good without him as it was with him.

[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
Many of his programs include some instability work within the entire workout (back squats followed by lunges on the indo flo cushion for example).

I don’t think you need to be an athlete (professional, collegiate, etc.) to use instability training. I may not be an athlete that competes in any particular sport, but I consider myself athletic and I want to train more like an athlete so I have all aspects of strength, conditioning, flexibility, agility, etc. [/quote]
its all good man, im the same I just want to get my BF back into single digits again. Kinda miss the athletic look, had it for years(5-12% BF range-spring/summer 5-7%, autumn/winter 10-12%) before i went on a massive badly construcuted bulking phase. SHould have stuck to zanes guideline of not increasing your bweight by more then 5% during a bulkin phase. Hopefully can sort it by mid summer.[/quote]

you beeatch :)im still catching my breath from yesterdays workout, the burn on the last set of the bench press was painful but I like that kind of thing. Had some practical issues with the circuits so had to do straight supersets method with 90 second rest in between each superset.[/quote]

ill have to check these out some other time after ive completed this 3 week program its onto 10x3 for Fat loss by Mr Waterbury. If its cool maybe I can PM you for help on this type of training, since you obviously have the experience-this type of conditioning work/complexes and sprinting/interval training are my thing(love maximal strength training aswell dont like conventional BB training)

[/quote]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
fastken77 wrote:
Compare the testimonials on their websites:

www.renegadetraining.com/

www.ericcressey.com/thoseintheknow.html

Strange. There aren’t any on Davies’ site.

You want one? I used Johns combine program to get ready for a second shot at pro football (at 27, seven years after tearing up my knee and dropping out at a D1 school because of it) he was always available on the phone for help and when he was in chicago drove five hours out of his way to visit a couple renegade guys who lived in the area for a day. After that program I ran my best 40 time ever by .2 (a 4.92), my best 5-10-5 by .1 (4.46) and did 225 33times (best by 5 reps) @ 338lbs of bw. The guy still takes my calls when I have questions about my clients and I would invite him to my wedding if I thought he had time to attend. Never met a more standup guy in this industry. Yes I lurk here at T-Nation, rarely do i feel strongly enough about something to post but this one got me off my ass. John has said not to defend him numerous times, to just leave it alone and be above pointless debate that will never come to a resolution, but I had to speak my peace.

Thanks for posting that. I have never met the man or done any of his programs except his renagade jump rope one.

That being said I find his writing inspirational and I often incorporate some of his stuff into my routines.

I am not into some of the more unusual stability training but Davies is much more than just that. I understand his interest though. The man still skateboards!

T-Nation is not as good without him as it was with him.

[/quote]

I agree. I’ve never tried any of his programs, but I dug his training philosophy.

Especially the pink shirts on ME squat day. I’ll never forget that.

I like EC also, but I don’t like that Davies won’t write articles anymore. I like a wide range of training options.

Coach Davies is the man!