you dont necessarily have it ‘here and not there.’ coolj and jsal seem to think that you’re lacking rate, i think that may be wrong. i want them to clarify why they think you’re lacking rate.
Cool was not refering to rate of force I am pretty sure he was refering to rate in this context
“Neuro-rate(speed)- This is movement associated with the quickest neural rate and transmission. Examples of neuro-rate movements are tapping the hands and feet as fast as possible, cycling the legs, and other movements that require speed above all else.”
Exercise like hopping back and forth over cones keeping the upper body stationary. Getting in a pushup or squat position on a trampoline and moving the hands and feet as fast as possible or hopping keeping the upper body stationary are other examples.
Speed as in a sprint is comprised of both neuro-magnitude and neuro-rate capacities. Neuro-magnitude would be the level of force you put into the ground with each stride (magnitude of force). Neuro-rate would be the speed at which your limbs move (stride rate).
[/quote]
in non-dbhammer speak this is RFD. right? or am i missing something? the first i, and im sure all others, ever heard of neuro-magnitude and neuro-rate was from dbhammer, and his non-existent self didn’t make anything up. he just changed the nomenclature.
can somebody please explain to me how producing force as quickly as possible and relaxing as quickly as possible is not RFD?
perhaps it’s the hammer speak that confuses the issue. i wanna know how tapping fingers or feet as fast as possible relates to sprinting. the former is virtually unweighted and is not limited by maximal force output, while the latter is limited by maximal force output to a high degree.
forgive me, colin, i was going to go on a rant and try to start an argument, but i now released some energy pent up through the day… im prejudiced against dbhammer stuff because ive seen no evidence that it’s anything other than altered or misplaced terminology of stuff that is already understood. yes, it works, but any differently than tried and true methods? no.
but you’re right, the only way we can actually help 1bball is if he gives us vid.
Basicly in that article Kelly has pretty much explained the 3 broad divisions of DB speak
rate
A. How fast can the motor impulse travel from the central nervous system to the muscles and from the muscles back up the spinal cord. This is responsible for quickness, very rapid firing muscular contraction, very rapid bouts of muscular relaxation, and the ability to move rapidly in absence of loading.
duration
B. How long the motor impulses keep the motor units activated. This is responsible for strength, which requires a muscle be activated for a fairly long time.
mag (nuero-magnitude)
C. The level of the neural impulses being sent. The greater the level of impulse, the more motor units get activated. This is important for either great displays of strength, power, or sports type athletic displays. It should be noted that very fast sprinters are distinguisehd by a high level of neural discharge from the central nervous system. If your nervous system was a battery the level would refer to the amount of “juice” the nervous system is putting out.
Now, when you put “A” and “C” together you get motor impulses that are being sent very quickly and at a high level. This is characteristic of athletic displays such as acceleration, jumping, sprinting, etc.
The amount of juice the system puts out is related to nervous system excitability and also tends to be well correlated with emotional excitability, temper, etc., - which is probably why there are lots of potentially good athletes in the prison system! The more juice the more muscle recruitment. During competition the ability of the system to put out this type of energy is a huge advantage but during life it can things complicated.
what I am saying is that the guy can put out a lot of juice, but maybe is not very effecient at doing it rapidly in a cyclic fashion - ie rate ability
Dude I’ve met a million people who could squat an elephant but couldn’t run worth a dam. However…I have yet to meet anyone that powercleans like an animal that couldn’t run and jump like one…somethin to think about…
I agree with one of the other posts I just saw. Power Clean is going to be a better measure of explosiveness. My college track coach always used to say that world class Olympic lifters would beats world class sprinters hands down over the first 10m of sprinting, before the sprinter longer legs, stride length, and flexibility would catch up.
Vertical jumping I think has a lot more knee flexion. Big quads resulting from big squats can greatly affect double-leg vert jumps. Sprinting and one footed jumping are much more about explosive hip extension, just like power cleans.
Squats and deadlifts you can grind out slowly. However, if you don’t move an Olympic lift really fast, its not happening.
I think Olympic lifts and plyometrics/bounding are your key. Work on your hip explosiveness, your rebound off the ground (plyos), and it also will help a lot to work on your flexibility, stride length, and hip flexor strength. One key component of one-legged jumping and sprinting that is completely non-existant in two-legged vertical jumping is the knee drive. And you’ve got to have great flexibility to be able to fully extend your hip and push off on one side while at the same time driving your opposite knee forward and up as far as possible.
Maybe get some input or drills from your track coach, or maybe run a season of track even.
Don’t worry, you can improve drastically on it at your age. I started as a slow distance runner in 8th grade, then a HS football player who my coach kept saying was one of the slowest receivers on the team in my first year or two, and eventually progressed to running Div. I college track with a 4.4 40 time. And in HS I definately did not have the strength totals you have now. So you’ve got great weightroom strength to start with. Now just develop your sprinting strength.
[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:
So anyone got any tips on what todo? Mabye plyo’s and just keep squating or something else? Thanks for all the help[/quote]
I wouldn’t worry about it. You’re 15 and have a 36 in vertical! Are you kidding me? I’m sure your speed will develope. If you want to make sure, get on a well rounded athletics program; speed, strength, plyos, agility. It will come.
[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:
Teedog, then what would you say I do to get as fast as possible?[/quote]
By the sounds of things, you are familiar with the weight room. I say this because, at your age, plyometrics may be a little aggressive for your joints, tendons, connective tissues.
You also mentioned that you jump best from a one step approach. How would you rate your jump: a fast “boing” type of bounce jump; or, you go into a deep bend and then explode upwards? This relates to what has been posted above, but, perhaps, in more understandable terms. I am thinking that the second option is more likely.
That being the case, I would do the step ups that were mentioned earlier and would start at about 16-18" as a step. You can use barbells or dumbells as carriers of the weight.
Second, I would focus on reducing contact time: this is the time that your feet are in contact with the ground. That comes with practice. Also work on driving your knees up and forward when you start the sprint. This is done in conjunction with driving the arms up and down with the appropriate stride. Work on your shoulders and lats for this.
Third, talk to a track coach (this too was mentioned above) and get some advice on your starting stance, actual start and stride. Although this is third in my list, don’t hesitate to do it first, that would be your best bet
[quote]Velvet Revolver wrote:
Dude I’ve met a million people who could squat an elephant but couldn’t run worth a dam. However…I have yet to meet anyone that powercleans like an animal that couldn’t run and jump like one…somethin to think about…[/quote]
you talking to me?
anybody who can squat big relative to bodyweight yet is a slow sprinter has massive problems elsewhere. the greatest sprinter of all time had a bigger relative squat than any other competitors and never did OL. something to think about…
OL is not as close to velocity on the force/velocity curve as you might think. VJ is much closer. sprinting is even closer. why, if he does these, would OL get him better at these if he already does PLesque (which is the closest to force on the F/V curve)?
as a side note, earlier in this thread somebody mentioned that the snatch is the fastest movement in sport. ive seen this garbage before and it makes me wonder if people actually think about what they think.
[quote]beans wrote:
I agree with one of the other posts I just saw. Power Clean is going to be a better measure of explosiveness. My college track coach always used to say that world class Olympic lifters would beats world class sprinters hands down over the first 10m of sprinting, before the sprinter longer legs, stride length, and flexibility would catch up.
Vertical jumping I think has a lot more knee flexion. Big quads resulting from big squats can greatly affect double-leg vert jumps. Sprinting and one footed jumping are much more about explosive hip extension, just like power cleans.
Squats and deadlifts you can grind out slowly. However, if you don’t move an Olympic lift really fast, its not happening.
I think Olympic lifts and plyometrics/bounding are your key. Work on your hip explosiveness, your rebound off the ground (plyos), and it also will help a lot to work on your flexibility, stride length, and hip flexor strength. One key component of one-legged jumping and sprinting that is completely non-existant in two-legged vertical jumping is the knee drive. And you’ve got to have great flexibility to be able to fully extend your hip and push off on one side while at the same time driving your opposite knee forward and up as far as possible.
Maybe get some input or drills from your track coach, or maybe run a season of track even.
Don’t worry, you can improve drastically on it at your age. I started as a slow distance runner in 8th grade, then a HS football player who my coach kept saying was one of the slowest receivers on the team in my first year or two, and eventually progressed to running Div. I college track with a 4.4 40 time. And in HS I definately did not have the strength totals you have now. So you’ve got great weightroom strength to start with. Now just develop your sprinting strength.[/quote]
the ‘study’ that ‘proved’ that OLers were faster than sprinters in the 10m-20m and had a higher VJ than high jumpers is unreliable at best. besides, that a long time ago when sprinters didn’t lift much, but OLers sprinted much and jumped much. long legs dont win races. stride length and flexibility is not something OLers lack.
knee flexion is not greater in VJ than sprinting.
ive seen OLers clean what looks like a slow dead. why does everybody think that OL is such a fast movement?
you may be right that his problem is rate, but im not as quick to rule out mag for a coupla reasons.
300 squat and 405 dead at 185 bodyweight is, in no way, representative of high mag. higher than most, yes, but not for athletes with 36" VJs. with stats like that it’s suggested that rate may actually be his strong point.
in kelly’s article he comments that your leg rate ability can be shown by lying on your back and cycling legs, but when you stand on your feet and try to cycle legs (sprint) they’ll cycle slower because of mag necessities. if this is the case, it shows that rate is not the limiting factor, but that mag is the limiting factor. i know nobody could ever cycle legs as fast on foot as unweighted, but i wonder how a lack of rate can be observed by doing this.
if 1bball got us vids of him performing all the relevant movements we’d sure be able to help him better than he expects.
[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
Basicly in that article Kelly has pretty much explained the 3 broad divisions of DB speak
rate
A. How fast can the motor impulse travel from the central nervous system to the muscles and from the muscles back up the spinal cord. This is responsible for quickness, very rapid firing muscular contraction, very rapid bouts of muscular relaxation, and the ability to move rapidly in absence of loading.
duration
B. How long the motor impulses keep the motor units activated. This is responsible for strength, which requires a muscle be activated for a fairly long time.
mag (nuero-magnitude)
C. The level of the neural impulses being sent. The greater the level of impulse, the more motor units get activated. This is important for either great displays of strength, power, or sports type athletic displays. It should be noted that very fast sprinters are distinguisehd by a high level of neural discharge from the central nervous system. If your nervous system was a battery the level would refer to the amount of “juice” the nervous system is putting out.
Now, when you put “A” and “C” together you get motor impulses that are being sent very quickly and at a high level. This is characteristic of athletic displays such as acceleration, jumping, sprinting, etc.
[/quote]
CCJ,
How susceptible are A, B, and C to improvement through training? It is said that ‘you can’t teach speed.’ I know that isn’t altogether true, but how true is it, and which of these three attributes is least susceptible to improvement through training?
the ‘study’ that ‘proved’ that OLers were faster than sprinters in the 10m-20m and had a higher VJ than high jumpers is unreliable at best. besides, that a long time ago when sprinters didn’t lift much, but OLers sprinted much and jumped much. long legs dont win races. stride length and flexibility is not something OLers lack.
[/quote]
I didn’t realize there was an actual study done on that. I was just relaying something that made a lot of sense from what I’d seen and from what my coach had seen. Of course just long legs and long strides don’t win races alone. But when you have plenty of strength and power, stride length and flexibility will always be where you can improve (as well as I guess turnover).
Yes, I agree, OLers don’t lack flexibility. They are extremely flexible in their hips and backs. Anyone who’s done snatch and had to catch it rock bottom can attest to that. But I think on average they don’t have the running flexibility that sprinters do, or maybe they just don’t have the hip flexor strength that sprinters do to strech out that stride.
Of course I am just comparing two extreme ends of the spectrum. Most people do a mixture of both, so they get the explosiveness and power from OL and the flexibility of sprinting.
True, when your stride is in a swing phase where your foot has collapsed to your butt and you’re swinging your leg back through for the next stride, knee flexion is higher in sprinting. But that phase doesn’t require any power from the knee extensors. What I was referring to was the power phase of the movement. The entire time the foot is one the ground in a sprint, the knee is flexed less than when you gather yourself for a vertical jump. In a sprint, the quad mainly only acts as an eccentric deccelerator as it absorbs the impact of the ground. The stronger your quads, the less energy you will lose at each footfall. The forward drive power comes from the hip extensors and hamstrings.
[quote]
3. ive seen OLers clean what looks like a slow dead. why does everybody think that OL is such a fast movement?[/quote]
I think if any one person’s clean is not faster than their deads, they’re not doing a clean right. Sure plenty of people muscle up what is essentially a cheater upright row into a power clean catch. But if their cleans are really up to par relative to their other lifts, the explosive phase of their clean, after their double knee bend phase, will always be faster than their deads. Now from the floor to just above their knees may be slow, but if it doesn’t explode from there, they’re not going to get the lift.
agreed. except that knee extension power plays a significant role in the acceleration phase of sprinting. knee bend during VJ shouldn’t really be much. at least no greater than knee bend in acceleration during sprinting. since 1bball is a footballer and football is mainly an acceleration sport i had to say…
stride length is a byproduct. it can’t be altered via direct methods without deleting from performance. the little bit that it can be altered is from flexibility and power, and i dont think OLers lack optimal flexibility and power for optimal stride length.
yes, there was a ‘study’ in the 60s during the olympics. quite a flawed study though. you college track coach either made up his comment or heard about this ‘study.’ it is not true that OLers beat sprinters in first 10m then sprinters beat them after 10m. besides, no OLer could beat an elite sprinter off teh blocks. that’s just qookey talk.
[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
How susceptible are A, B, and C to improvement through training? It is said that ‘you can’t teach speed.’ I know that isn’t altogether true, but how true is it, and which of these three attributes is least susceptible to improvement through training?[/quote]
The quote, ‘you can’t teach speed.’ is
interesting. I fully disagree with it, however. Of course, it all depends on how you define speed.
I believe you can teach proper technique, form and strength to be applied to sprinting. These factors will improve the sprinter’s speed. Add some mental training and speed will improve some more.
The quote, and I am not sure if you espouse that concept or not, is like saying that “great whatever” are born, not made, which is something else I totally disagree with.
Yes, I believe genetics have a lot to do with athletics. I also believe that determination, desire, belief win out over talent more often than not.
Can our young b’baller be trained to run faster than he already is? Absolutely, though probably not to be an Olympic sprinter.
[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
try hop on and off a 6inch step, trying for max reps in 10secs
if you have trouble doing that smoothly and easily then you need to work on your rate ability. Which will in turn help your sprint ability if that’s what your lacking.
I get in 18 hops in 10secs doing the hop thing. And cranked out 5+ strides a second when I sprinted recently - according to my video.
I used to be very bad at that drill, but when I got better, I got way faster as well
I also jump with a very low impulse times, shallow knee bend and very short reversal times now. There is probably a correlation in all of these as far as basic CNS firing characteristics goes
[/quote]
Sorry to hijack the thread but…
I got 19 hops in 10 sec. What does this mean? what is the best way for me to raise my vert? what should i improve?
[quote]TomRocco wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
try hop on and off a 6inch step, trying for max reps in 10secs
if you have trouble doing that smoothly and easily then you need to work on your rate ability. Which will in turn help your sprint ability if that’s what your lacking.
I get in 18 hops in 10secs doing the hop thing. And cranked out 5+ strides a second when I sprinted recently - according to my video.
I used to be very bad at that drill, but when I got better, I got way faster as well
I also jump with a very low impulse times, shallow knee bend and very short reversal times now. There is probably a correlation in all of these as far as basic CNS firing characteristics goes
Sorry to hijack the thread but…
I got 19 hops in 10 sec. What does this mean? what is the best way for me to raise my vert? what should i improve?
Thanks
[/quote]
providing us with information about what your stats are and what your training history is like would help invaluably.
but if you’re completely noob then just jumping will do.
