How weak are you?
I would think Smolov would impart too much of a “slow” emphasis to your nervous system to be very effective for a sprinter. Probably you’d be better off using about 80% for 3-5 reps.
[quote]smallmike wrote:
How weak are you?[/quote]
I back squat 185x1 at 135bw a couple months ago.
But I’ve been working on front squats. Last week I front squat 145x3 for a 3rm then a single 157x1 at 135bw.I never truly maxed out on the front squats. according to that one conversion article printed on here…
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1823834
the front squat is 70% of your back squat and the back squat is 142% of your back squat so according to that I probably back squat around 220-225 now.
Bodybuilder Hops!!!
pure strength jumping at it’s finest, very slow and low dip, but he gets up there 
Don’t know how heavy he is, but he’s about 5’9". Probably lighter than me, since he looks pretty lean.
With a bit more practise and technique work, he could get another 3+ inches higher.
Rim is slightly bent, but not too much. Pretty close to dunking off vertical!
Judging by his head to net height, I would put his vertical jump around the 36-38 inch area
and a 56" boxjump
he’s got some muscles on his legs 
I guess that answers the question about muscles gained from bodybuilding do anything for power/strength. No difference IMO
–
well he does appear to practise some jumping, but not a like BBall’er would. I see a hurdle hop video in his channel
Anyone know how far apart those track markings are at teh end of the clip? That would give you an idea of his broad jump as well
but it backs up my belief all muscle and strength work is general.
Get big/strong and practise jumping = hops
Check this paper out - its a long read but for the VJ nerds it’s nice
this quote intrigues me
could be the reason why some people don’t get much higher off a run? 
Page 104-105 is missing though 
http://faculty.fullerton.edu/gnoffal/Courses/561%20Course/vert%20jump%20-%20dowling.pdf
Subjects performed maximum vertical jumps on a force platform to reveal whether resulting force-time curves could identify characteristics of good
performances . Instantaneous power-time curves were also derived from the force-time curves. Eighteen temporal and kinetic variables were calculated from the force- and power-time curves and were compared with the takeoff
velocities and maximum heights via correlation and multiple regression . The large variability in the patterns of force application between the subjects made it difficult to identify important characteristics of a good performance .
Maximum positive power was found to be an excellent single predictor of height, but the best three-predictor model, not including maximum power, could only explain 66.2% of the height variance . A high maximum force
(> 2 body weights) was found to be necessary but not sufficient for a good performance. Some subjects had low jumps in spite of generating high peak forces, which indicated that the pattern of force application was more
important than strength
This is supported by the findings of Van Ingen Schenau (1984), who suggested that the purpose of the negative work phase is not so much to store energy but to
take up “the slack of muscle” at the onset of contraction . The purpose of the countermovement may also be to allow the muscles enough time to reach maximum activation at the joint angles that allow the greatest torque and at a more
favorable velocity for force generation (Chapman & Sanderson, 1990 ; Dowling, 1992). If this is the case, then the negative work phase only needs to be of short
duration and the absolute amount of negative work done above a certain minimum is relatively unimportant . This concept was supported by the poor correlation between negative impulse and height jumped even though the countermovement is known to cause significant improvements in vertical jump performance (Asmussen & Bonde-Petersen, 1974; Bosco, Tihanyi, Komi, Fekete, & Apor, 1982 ;
Komi & Bosco, 1978). Furthermore, Bedi, Creswell, Engel, and Nicol (1987) found that increasing the negative work beyond the countermovement by having subjects drop from various heights did not improve jumping performance .
At the present time it is unknown whether the arm swing increases the downward load on the legs in the stretch phase of the stretch-shortening cycle
(Khalid, Amin, & Bober, 1989) or simply transfers momentum to the rest of the body near takeoff, or if a combination of both is the cause of the height increase .
Recently, Harman et al . (1990) found that no net gain of impulse is achieved via the arm swing but the arm swing enhances the impulse generated by the lower
extremities by lengthening the time of force application and taking advantage of the force-velocity relation of muscle .
If, as mentioned earlier, the countermovement lessens the effect of rate of force development by allowing
time to reach maximum force (Chapman & Sanderson, 1990), then this could explain why in some studies (Bosco et al ., 1982; Komi & Bosco, 1978) men and subjects with a high percentage of fast-twitch fibers were thought to utilize
less stored elastic energy than women and subjects with a higher percentage of slow-twitch fibers when squat jumps were compared to countermovement jumps .
Basketball season just ended and for the last two weeks i stop doing legs altogether to keep my legs fresh for the championships game and we pulled away with a win. Now it’s back to hitting the weights hard and I’m a little confused as to what to start off with.
Obviously I lost a little strength during the season and I figure i will get it back pretty easily if I’m smart, but I dont have alot of time to do so because Im playing spring and summer basketball (aau and school ball). At the start of the season I could box squat 300, deadlift 370x3, and i currently bench 185x8.
I’m thinking of just starting up with regular atg squats for four or five weeks to see how things go, i tried 135 the other day and it felt heavy and awkward at the end of my upper body workout. What are people’s thoughts on regaining and then gaining new strength?
o and btw i weight around 175 at 5’11
I should add to this thread…
I’ve started the VJB(my first real vert program) a week ago(today was my forth workout, week two day 2) and after the second workout, and three days rest, my vert increased an outstanding 3". Im on the full balanced program, which is alot harder then it looks…this is coming from a guy who completed smolov.
Some comments/question:
-My left knee is kinda bad…some exercises, like the split lunge jumps huuuurt on cement. So I’ve been doin the barbell squat jumps and the SLJs in my kitchen…I would do the vertical jumps and the DJ’s in the kitchen too but I would knock myself out on the ceiling.
-Adding upper body days…really easy, just do chest/tris, back/bis, and shoulders/traps sometimes in between workouts. Nothing big, just heavy pull ups, heavy dips etc.
-Does anyone recommend splitting up the day into two sessions??? For example, the weight training aspect of it takes me around 50 mins. And its pretty taxing. I dont really feel like doin plyos right after but what about a few hours later?
I recommend this program to everyone but maybe Im a little over eager cause of my results so far. We will see what happens.
Ripping time what were your stats when u started, like VJ, Bw, squat etc.
I might actually do that program, im currently on novice weights last phase so im looking for something to do after it
[quote]RiPPing Time wrote:
I should add to this thread…
I’ve started the VJB(my first real vert program) a week ago(today was my forth workout, week two day 2) and after the second workout, and three days rest, my vert increased an outstanding 3". Im on the full balanced program, which is alot harder then it looks…this is coming from a guy who completed smolov.
Some comments/question:
-My left knee is kinda bad…some exercises, like the split lunge jumps huuuurt on cement. So I’ve been doin the barbell squat jumps and the SLJs in my kitchen…I would do the vertical jumps and the DJ’s in the kitchen too but I would knock myself out on the ceiling.
-Adding upper body days…really easy, just do chest/tris, back/bis, and shoulders/traps sometimes in between workouts. Nothing big, just heavy pull ups, heavy dips etc.
-Does anyone recommend splitting up the day into two sessions??? For example, the weight training aspect of it takes me around 50 mins. And its pretty taxing. I dont really feel like doin plyos right after but what about a few hours later?
I recommend this program to everyone but maybe Im a little over eager cause of my results so far. We will see what happens.[/quote]
I’ve had similar questions when I did the VJB program. I also did the full balanced intermediate program. My questions were how to incorporate upper body work, and also conditioning work. Any ideas? Thanks.
Nick
as far as regaining and gaining strength goes, just go into the gym and squat something in the 5-8 rep range, next time your there add more weight and do the same. Your strength will come back fast.
Once you stall due to overreaching or incomplete recovery, drop the weight in half to unload and slowly ramp back up over a few weeks
this will work for a long time
I think you guys should forget about programs and focus on principals!
VJ training is progressive takes a lot of effort over a long time. You don’t just do a program for 8 weeks get a certain gain. Ok for begineers year that will work. But for everyone ealse, it will take years.
Get strong, minimum 2.5xBW full squat for decent hops. if you aspire for a 40 inch vertical jump. I recommend low bar full squats with a shoudler width stance as the main strength lift. It will hit all important muscles for jumping higher pretty evenly, without needing any assistant lifts
Maintain of improve movement effeciency -
most important practise jumping… I’ll show why in my following posts
other than that, IMO that’s all there is to it. No need for plyos, oly lifts or jumpsquats and crap like that
[quote]RiPPing Time wrote:
Some comments/question:
-My left knee is kinda bad…some exercises, like the split lunge jumps huuuurt on cement. So I’ve been doin the barbell squat jumps and the SLJs in my kitchen…I would do the vertical jumps and the DJ’s in the kitchen too but I would knock myself out on the ceiling.
[/quote]
for your knee issues read my posts in this thread
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_strength/knees_and_jumping_squatting_sprinting
and grab this PDF by Mike Robertson
http://www.members.optushome.com.au/coolcolj/Temp/Self-Myofascial%20Release,%20Purpose,%20Methods%20and%20Techniques.pdf
Effects of muscle strengthening on vertical jump height: a simulation study.Bobbert MF, Van Soest AJ.
Department of Functional Anatomy, Faculteit Bewegingswetenschappen, Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
In this study the effects of systematic manipulations of control and muscle strength on vertical jump height were investigated. Forward dynamic simulations of vertical squat jumps were performed with a model of the human musculoskeletal system.
Model input was STIM(t), stimulation of six lower extremity muscles as function of time; model output was body motion. The model incorporated all features of the musculoskeletal system of human test subjects considered salient for vertical jumping, and the initial body configuration was set equal to that of the test subjects.
First, optimal STIM(t) was found for a standard version of the model (experiment A). A satisfactory correspondence was found between simulation results and kinematics, kinetics and electromyograms of the test subjects.
Subsequently, optimal STIM(t) for the standard model was used to drive a model with strengthened muscles (experiment B). Jump height was now lower than that found in experiment A.
Finally, optimal STIM(t) was found for the model with strengthened muscles (experiment C). Jump height was now higher than that found in experiment A. These results suggest that in order to take full benefit of an increase in muscle strength, control needs to be adapted. It is speculated that in training programs aimed at improving jumping achievement,muscle training exercises should be accompanied by exercises that allow athletes to practice with their changed muscles
here is a better desription of the above study
The purpose of this study was twofold: (a) to systematically investigate the effect of altering specific neuromuscular parameters on maximum vertical jump height, and (b) to systematically investigate the effect of strengthening specific muscle groups on maximum vertical jump height.
A two-dimensional musculoskeletal model which consisted of four rigid segments, three joints, and six Hill-type muscle models, representing the six major muscles and muscle groups in the lower extremity that contribute to jumping performance, was trained systematically.
Maximum isometric muscle force, maximum muscle shortening velocity, and maximum muscle activation, which were manipulated to simulate the effects of strength training, all had substantial effects on jumping performance.
Part of the increase in jumping performance could be explained solely by the interaction between the three neuromuscular parameters. It appeared that the most effective way to improve jumping performance was to train the knee extensors among all lower extremity muscles. For the model to fully benefit from any training effects of the neuromuscular system, it was necessary to continue to reoptimize the muscle coordination, in particular after the strength training sessions that focused on increasing maximum isometric muscle force.
get strong, practise jumping/sprinting a few days later
A little writeup on that study
http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol21/bobbert.htm
CONTROL AND PHYSICAL DEVELOPMENT OF STRENGTH
Bobbert, M. F., & Van Soest, A. J. (1994). Effects of muscle strengthening on vertical jump height: a simulation study. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 26, 1012-1020.
"Although a body of knowledge based on experience is very valuable, it still remains the task of investigators to substantiate training methods scientifically.
The least scientists can do is offer practitioners a theoretical framework, from within which they can explain why some training programs or exercises have been more successful than others." (p. 1012)
The relative importance of control (learned skill) and various properties of the musculoskeletal system will vary with the particular type of activity in which the athlete is engaged. Vertical jumping depends primarily on control (skill) and muscle strength. In reply to the question on which factors a training program should focus to improve jump height, most coaches will say that the answer depends on the athlete’s level of skill.
They feel that in a novice athlete, supposed to have suboptimal control/skill, one can choose to try and improve either control or muscle strength. In an elite athlete, they will say, control is likely already to be optimal, so the focus in training should be on muscle strength.
Consequently, to improve jumping height in expert volleyball players training aimed at increasing strength is advocated. Although in practice substantial gains in muscle strength may be achieved relatively easily, the corresponding effects on jump height are often quite inconclusive.
The adjustment of skill to changes in the physical properties of the strengthened muscle would be a critical factor to derive beneficial training effects from auxiliary training. Actual jumping achievement depends crucially on precise “timing” of muscle actions, that is, the skill of smooth coordination.
“If muscles are strengthened while control remains unchanged, jump height decreases rather than increases” (p. 1017). When control is not optimal, takeoff occurs prematurely and/or much muscular work is transformed into rotational energy segments at takeoff, so that the work is used less effectively.
This implies that skill is paramount for jumping performance. Tuning control to system properties is a crucial step in maximizing vertical jump height (p. 1018). This supports the concept of having non-specific strength optimized prior to specific skill development.
The process of acquiring control skill is very time-consuming, involving weeks, months, or even years. Thus, when developing strength, it should be done at the same rate at which skill can be expected to change if it is done concurrently.
For explosive actions, such as jumping, the learning of the skill relies heavily on pre-programmed muscle stimulation patterns (movement maps). Optimizing control takes at least several weeks of concentrated practice.
Muscle strength determines the maximal jump height that can be reached but actual performance relies crucially on the tuning of control to muscle properties. Muscle training exercises should be accompanied by exercises in which the athletes may practice with their changed muscle properties. Otherwise, athletes will not be able to adjust their control to benefit fully from the muscular improvements.
Repetition of movement in which achievement is to be improved or, more precisely, repeatedly solving the task in which achievement is to be improved, seems indicated. Failure to do so may render training ineffective or even detrimental. Too strong an emphasis on muscle training exercises may be the reason for many failures to benefit from extra auxiliary training.
The critical feature in this consideration is the opportunity to practice the skill/control. In “simple” exercises like a vertical jump, the commonalty of the skill with leg extension in squats, squat jumps, and leg raises is quite high.
Transfer of training effects could be expected. However, in a very complex and unnatural action such as swimming or kayak paddling, transfer may not be so easy. What would happen to a technique if only some of the many muscles involved were strengthened, or if all were strengthened but some more than others, is anyone’s guess.
However, it could be anticipated that dysfunctional movement characteristics (e.g., out of balance, asymmetrical actions, disruptions in movement smoothness) would result causing performance to be affected detrimentally.
Consequently, dedicated strength training of less than a carefully planned, and obviously individual nature, could be quite detrimental to an athlete’s improvement.
As long as skill improvements and analysis are emphasized, there is less likelihood that strength training will be counterproductive. However, if skill emphases remain at the same level as when no strength training was being conducted, it is likely that counter-productivity will be high.
That counter-productivity will be increased in proportion to the complexity of the performance skill and the intended standard of performance
of those 3 parameters, we can increase Isometric force easily and by the most. Just get in the squat rack already!
muscle shortening velocity - depends on the weight of the object (bodyweight) and your strength, so it ties into 1
maximum muscle activation - can be optimised, but is pretty genetic, and ties into rate coding
the thing that got me was the quote on CoolColJ’s profile.
That the only things that we can really train are maximum strength and movement efficiency to any degree.
All of the other stuff require so much time of training with such a minute amount of improvement that it kinda seems pointless to put extra effort into them when you can hit them with strength lifts and jumping variations.
[quote]Clown Face wrote:
the thing that got me was the quote on CoolColJ’s profile.
That the only things that we can really train are maximum strength and movement efficiency to any degree.
All of the other stuff require so much time of training with such a minute amount of improvement that it kinda seems pointless to put extra effort into them when you can hit them with strength lifts and jumping variations.[/quote]
because ccj said it, it must be true…
minute amount of improvement? if you do plyos consistently and improve your force time curve even slightly, then thats a great amount of improvement… you will also improve muscle stiffness & the the ability of the tendon’s to store elastic energy.
you cant improve force absorption with heavy lifting as effectively as you can with plyos.
plyos improve “movement efficiency” better than the actual skill itself… because plyos overload the nervous system and cause it to absorb/handle/produce force better.
just wondering, what makes you think CCJ is an authority on vert training?
and oh, i bring this up because CCJ is anti plyos basically & im assuming you are agreeing with him? if you’re not agreeing w/ him, i still like to bug CCJ so…
peace
landing from a jump is already like an altitude drop, and even more relaxed.
Planting from a running start = depth jump
what else more do you need?
plus practising jumps is about as specific as you can get
unless your one of these people who can’t jump properly or doesn’t like to land, by doing a ton of box jumps then you may more specialised “technique” work
[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
landing from a jump is already like an altitude drop, and even more relaxed.
Planting from a running start = depth jump
what else more do you need?
plus practising jumps is about as specific as you can get
unless your one of these people who can’t jump properly or doesn’t like to land, by doing a ton of box jumps then you may more specialised “technique” work[/quote]
landing from a jump is nothing like an ADA… unless you stick it
and landing from a jump is nothing like an ADA because, an ADA is supposed to exceed your natural abilities… therefore, you cant possibly consider a drop from any of your jumps an ADA, because it does not overload your natural capabilities.
planting from a running start is nothing like a depth jump… nothing… not even close… get that out of your head…
practicing jumps is as specific as you can get, yes, but once you have great efficiency at jumping, you’re not going to gain anymore from just jumping… you can squat, get that up, and gain that way… you can also do plyos and get your vert/rvj up… so that proves that both work… utilizing both methods is maximizing your time, NOT WASTING IT.
bye