Vert/Speed Training Thread

Even if “plyos and crap” yields only a 5% improvement over the course of a year… that could mean 2". Put 2" on a highly-trained athlete’s vert over the course of a year and you can make money as a trainer.

I can present numerous examples of athletes of varied levels of physical preparation that I have worked with personally who have made increases in their vertical by utilizing a variety of jumping exercises.

Agree totally with adarqui that using strength work in combination with plyo work, via whatever periodization scheme you see fit, is maximizing results, not wasting it.

[quote]adarqui wrote:
Clown Face wrote:
the thing that got me was the quote on CoolColJ’s profile.

That the only things that we can really train are maximum strength and movement efficiency to any degree.

All of the other stuff require so much time of training with such a minute amount of improvement that it kinda seems pointless to put extra effort into them when you can hit them with strength lifts and jumping variations.

because ccj said it, it must be true…

minute amount of improvement? if you do plyos consistently and improve your force time curve even slightly, then thats a great amount of improvement… you will also improve muscle stiffness & the the ability of the tendon’s to store elastic energy.

you cant improve force absorption with heavy lifting as effectively as you can with plyos.

plyos improve “movement efficiency” better than the actual skill itself… because plyos overload the nervous system and cause it to absorb/handle/produce force better.

just wondering, what makes you think CCJ is an authority on vert training?

and oh, i bring this up because CCJ is anti plyos basically & im assuming you are agreeing with him? if you’re not agreeing w/ him, i still like to bug CCJ so… :wink:

peace
[/quote]

when i say jumping variations…to me that means anything from line hops…to vertical jumps…to rim jumps…to altitude hops.

[quote]kaoticz wrote:
Ripping time what were your stats when u started, like VJ, Bw, squat etc.
I might actually do that program, im currently on novice weights last phase so im looking for something to do after it :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Starting stats:
Height - 5’10
Weight - 175-180 lbs(hope to be at 170 for summer)
Vertical - 29
Squat - 300 lbs
Deadlift - Estimated around 350, I had surgery last year and this was the only lift I couldnt do. I just started them again.

Smolov and the russian strength generator shot my squat up from like 220 to 300 in under six months with a couple months break in there, work related.

Anyway my vert is a confirmed 31 inches after JUST starting VJB so Im really pumped. Recommended.

[quote]adarqui wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
landing from a jump is already like an altitude drop, and even more relaxed.
Planting from a running start = depth jump
what else more do you need?

plus practising jumps is about as specific as you can get

unless your one of these people who can’t jump properly or doesn’t like to land, by doing a ton of box jumps then you may more specialised “technique” work

landing from a jump is nothing like an ADA… unless you stick it

and landing from a jump is nothing like an ADA because, an ADA is supposed to exceed your natural abilities… therefore, you cant possibly consider a drop from any of your jumps an ADA, because it does not overload your natural capabilities.

planting from a running start is nothing like a depth jump… nothing… not even close… get that out of your head…

practicing jumps is as specific as you can get, yes, but once you have great efficiency at jumping, you’re not going to gain anymore from just jumping… you can squat, get that up, and gain that way… you can also do plyos and get your vert/rvj up… so that proves that both work… utilizing both methods is maximizing your time, NOT WASTING IT.

bye[/quote]

QUestion:

How do those baseball players in the dunking video train…do they train like you or more strength wise?

[quote]Clown Face wrote:
adarqui wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
landing from a jump is already like an altitude drop, and even more relaxed.
Planting from a running start = depth jump
what else more do you need?

plus practising jumps is about as specific as you can get

unless your one of these people who can’t jump properly or doesn’t like to land, by doing a ton of box jumps then you may more specialised “technique” work

landing from a jump is nothing like an ADA… unless you stick it

and landing from a jump is nothing like an ADA because, an ADA is supposed to exceed your natural abilities… therefore, you cant possibly consider a drop from any of your jumps an ADA, because it does not overload your natural capabilities.

planting from a running start is nothing like a depth jump… nothing… not even close… get that out of your head…

practicing jumps is as specific as you can get, yes, but once you have great efficiency at jumping, you’re not going to gain anymore from just jumping… you can squat, get that up, and gain that way… you can also do plyos and get your vert/rvj up… so that proves that both work… utilizing both methods is maximizing your time, NOT WASTING IT.

bye

QUestion:

How do those baseball players in the dunking video train…do they train like you or more strength wise?[/quote]

they did basically 2 months of general strength work, to put on mass etc… which did include plyos/drills…

but then in the last month they did a 1 day on 1 day off routine…

day 1 - sprints/jumps/plyos/heavy squatting/assistance

day 2 = rest

day 3 = sprints/change of direction/interval sprints (conditioning) etc / upper body

day 4 = rest

repeat

they had pr’s in the first two months etc… but the last month was PR city… thats how i wanted it - more rest, heavier lifting, more intense plyos, realizing gains.

im putting out a little training mix tape of the footage we did take while they were here… should be up sunday night or monday night.

peace man

Hi, I’m a first time poster in this forum and still pretty new to the website. I really want to increase my vertical jump but I’m not quite sure what to do. I’ve read enough of kelly baggett’s stuff to know that I need to have strong legs and thanks to smolov I’m sitting at a 365 parallel squat at a 175 bw. (still a little chubby tho). my vertical hasn’t really improved from it and I was wondering if i could get some advice?..

[quote]leadben wrote:
Hi, I’m a first time poster in this forum and still pretty new to the website. I really want to increase my vertical jump but I’m not quite sure what to do. I’ve read enough of kelly baggett’s stuff to know that I need to have strong legs and thanks to smolov I’m sitting at a 365 parallel squat at a 175 bw. (still a little chubby tho). my vertical hasn’t really improved from it and I was wondering if i could get some advice?..[/quote]

Hmmm I only 245 at 172 bw, but I can still dunk.
Sprint training has gotten me some gains recently, and before I started doing sprint, I did a lot of jumprope work.
Try incorporating some box squats into your routine, those helped me a lot too and are much easier than regular squats.
According to coolcolj’s calculator, you should have a 35 inch jump…
Maybe you should get used to jumping more or w/e.

[quote]leadben wrote:
Hi, I’m a first time poster in this forum and still pretty new to the website. I really want to increase my vertical jump but I’m not quite sure what to do. I’ve read enough of kelly baggett’s stuff to know that I need to have strong legs and thanks to smolov I’m sitting at a 365 parallel squat at a 175 bw. (still a little chubby tho). my vertical hasn’t really improved from it and I was wondering if i could get some advice?..[/quote]

how deep is “parallel” ?
hope it means top of thighs to parallel to floor at least :slight_smile:
And beltless.

in any case just put you squat/strength work on maintenace once a week and deload it. Maybe 2x6 or 4x3 with 65-70% etc

and then practise jumping 1-2 times a week, stopping the session when you no longer feel fresh enough to jump within an inch of your session best.
standing, 1 step, off a run or all variations - whatever you want to improve

that should freshen you up and get some specific power/technique work in. Keep it going till the gains stop, probably no longer than a month, then get back to more hypertrophy/strength work and repeat

Smolov will kill your hops for a fair amount of time.
And any decent weight training will, once you get strong enough.

I’m only full squatting once a week, and even doing 355lbs x6,x5 last week as my main work sets has dropped my vertical jump 3 inches from the previouss week and 5-6 inches off my running jump. And I’m definitely not overtrained or overreached.

But I don’t care about short term decreases as a result of changes to the muscle and low level fatigue from heavy squats, I’m thinking about the big prize at the end of the road and the short term increase when I deload at the end of the block :slight_smile:

Anyone watch Pumping Iron? remeber Mike Katz? He can run and get up :slight_smile:


http://www.ironage.us/articles/katz.html

Anyway, early on I was all chest. As a football player I didn’t need giant calves or 32" thighs. They wouldn’t have helped me in football. So, my natural bodyparts that came easy grew bigger and the parts I didn’t need for football didn’t. So early on I didn’t have the proportion or symmetry but I was one of the fastest guys in the NFL. At 265 I ran a 4.6(sec) 40. The backs weren’t running that speed. Plus I was the strongest and biggest guy on the field. But nobody really lifted weights back then. They didn’t understand what I was doing. They thought they’d all get musclebound and slow but here I was, getting big and strong and fast from it. Still the coaches told them not to lift. I knew that the coaches didn’t know what they were talking about.

IA: George Butler related to me how, when the “Pumping Iron” crew went to visit you at your school you ran the football field with a bunch of the student athletes trying to catch you and he said that no one could. He was shocked how someone your size could move so fast.

MK: (Laughing) I remember. I can also dunk a basketball from a standing position. At 6’1" and 260-270 I could dunk a basketball with two hands. I did some pretty unprecedented things. But today there are a lot of big, talented guys who’ve benefitted from weight training. You’ll see 6’8" linemen today who weren’t talented enough at basketball but who are incredible athletes on the football field. Back then a 200 pound athlete was considered big

respones to CoolColJ:
Not beltless but “parallel” is butt going slightly lower than the knees and thighs being slightly lower than parallel to floor. I definitely use a belt tho. Why go beltless? Anyways, thanks for the advice.

respones to CoolColJ:
Not beltless but “parallel” is butt going slightly lower than the knees and thighs being slightly lower than parallel to floor. I definitely use a belt tho. Why go beltless? Anyways, thanks for the advice.

well because you don’t jump with a belt, and it’s a better indicator of your real strength

Sweet interview with Katz, I didn’t know he was that athletic.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
well because you don’t jump with a belt, and it’s a better indicator of your real strength[/quote]

You also don’t jump with a bar on your back???

Better device to stimulate jumping will be harness at waist.

Also in jump you don’t drop down to parallel.

[quote]leadben wrote:
Hi, I’m a first time poster in this forum and still pretty new to the website. I really want to increase my vertical jump but I’m not quite sure what to do. I’ve read enough of kelly baggett’s stuff to know that I need to have strong legs and thanks to smolov I’m sitting at a 365 parallel squat at a 175 bw. (still a little chubby tho). my vertical hasn’t really improved from it and I was wondering if i could get some advice?..[/quote]

Squatting strenghtens the muscles but people have been going overboard in terms of it’s relationship to vertical jumping. There are a ton of powerlifters with great squat number that can’t jump worth shit.

  1. There are so many different variations of the squat simply reaching a number doesn’t say how much force you give out in a jump. Some people bend alot at the waist specially powerlifters, some use more quads more oly lifters. Contrary to popular belief your quads provide the most power in a vertical jump, with glutes and hams playing a strong role also.

  2. Squatting helps mostly vertical jump in the pure sense of the world. It helps less with reaction strength which is the process of going down to jump then coming back up, or a one step vertical. You’ll see more strength athletes with higher pure verticals then NBA players, but in game situations the NBA players can jump higher.

  3. A True one rep max squat is horrible representation of the strength in legs, a calculation based off a higher rep amount is better. Some people are just good at grinding out a heavy weight, that takes more determination then strength.
    either way we’ll assume your legs are strong, but I would raise the rep training and stick to 8 - 10 rep sets with a moderate to heavy weight for a while.

  4. Flexibility, Sprint training, and depth jumps should help you alot assuming that you have strong legs.

I came across an old topic on a forum I used to frequent a lot. And I saw I posted in it, back in 2002. So around when I first started training again. And like all newbies, we tend to be know it alls without the actual experience to back it all up :slight_smile:

The guy I was responding to was more right than wrong after all this time… :sunglasses:

The only reason why he didn’t gain more, was because of his high natural strength and thus starting Vertical Jump, but everything else is not far off! :o

his posts

Do you mean standing vertical leap (no running start) ? This ability has a very strong genetic component, the muscle fiber composition of your lower body has to be primarliy fast twitch fiber. How high can you jump now, and just as important how much can you squat ? I’m not certain but I do feel there is a correlation (for me personally at least) between your sqauting strength and your leaping ability. Also are you a fast natural sprinter, I feel this too is a big factor of how good of a vertical can be acheived.

In any case, a 8 inch increse in vertical is probably impossible. You should be able to put 3 or maybe even 4 inches on your vertical through lifting (esp lower body read:SQUATS), sprints, and keeping bodyfat under 10%.

But at the end of the day I beleive your vertical is limited strongly by your genes. When I first had my leaps tested at 16, i didn’t even work my legs and jumped 38".

After four years of heavy lower body work (squat and deadlift just shy of 500 now) I jumped a 41" . I’m only 5’8’ so its kinda useless but still it is cool to freak people out by being able to almost fly.

What I would do is hit the legs hard once a week. By hitting legs I don’t mean leg-press, leg-extension, leg-curl, and hack squat. These movements are completely useless in my opinion.

If you want strong legs, you squat with big weight, period. Yeah I know there are dudes out there who can jump 40" plus and don’t work legs at all, but your probably not one of them so you MUST squat.

Also practice the movement. Just like you would lfit weights, do 10 singles like grabing a basketball rim before or after your sprinting sessions. Sprinting is also great for your hamstrings, and I feel a faster sprinter is a higher leaper too.

So hit your legs hard in the gyn once per weak, and do a sprint/leaping workout twice per week and you should increase your veritcal leap, but most likely not by 8".

Gotta disagree with the explosive lifting and plyos stuff…

First explosive lifting is a great way to yourself up unless
A.) You have a good coach who actually has a clue about olympic lifts from experience (not a bfs clinic) and can teach you the exact way to do these lifts.

B.) You are a very well conditioned athlete with at least 2 years of training under your belt

Plyos are a spectularly efficient method to inflict soft tissue trauma to the lower body muscular and skeletal systems. I don’t care how some olympic athlete trains if he is already a genetic freak. If you want to jump higher, four simple and safer methods:

  1. Get lean, fat is dead weight, stay at least 8% bf (or lower if possible without excessive dieting).

  2. Build strong legs by squatting at the very least 2xbodyweight for atleast 10 reps. I found that my sprinting and leaping ability didn’t really increase fdut to leg strength until I was doing 315x20 once per week. Learn the correct form.

No box, No good-morning quasi-squat, down until top of thighs are parallel to floor and SLOWLY (without momentum) rise. “Speed squats” sound like an orthaepedic disater just waiting to happen.

Also do a little bit of sprinting as this is one the best hamstring and glute workouts in the world. 10 50’s and 5 100’s twice a week worked very well for me.

  1. Remember there is no such thing as carryover, jumping off boxes and injuring connective tisue is not going to make you jump higher. Practice the movement you are trying to improve, alot. Like I said find a bball hoop that is at least 10’ high and try 10 well rested shots at that er every two or three days. This gives you a visual indictor of how much progress you make.

  2. Stretching will increase your sprinting and leaping ability somewhat through mainly hamstring and hip range-of-motion improvements. Be careful though, becuase it can be over done, and you have to learn the exact way from an instructor not a book.

Try to find someone that is experienced with what is known as PNF stretching, this is one of the most effective and efficient methods for improving flexibility.

Hope this helps

Another post from him - but he was also asking about drug cycles in this post :slight_smile:

His squat to bodyweight matches up to his claimed 41inch jump above with my Vertical jump forumula :sunglasses:


I’m finally going to do a cycle starting in late november or early december. I’m 22 5’8" 185 ~11% bf. Been training since I was 16. Spent the first 5 or so years following HIT style routines (one or two sets till failure twice-weekly fullbody routines) and got decently strong (275x1 bench 405x5 deadlift 425x3 squat). In the last couple of months I discovered the wealth of information online regarding training routines and diet.

I now follow a modified max-ot stlye routine where a I hit each muscle group once a week but hard. I also try (emphasis on try) to keep my diet where in needs to be for a weightlifter: 3000+ cals, 200+ grams protein per day.

Ok enough of my history, im contemplating using some gear to bulk as I have a pretty tough time gaining wieght now matter how mcuh I eat. In the last few months I’ve made some nice gains in strength by switching to a more strength focused routine and uping my caloric intake. I’ve been researching this topic since June and think I have a good idea of what to do and what not to do. I was thinking something along these lines[/blockquote]

[blockquote]Honestly I think i’ve exhausted what my body can do naturally, I mean I began lifting at 145 when I was 15 and now at 185, with a lot less bodyfat, I can pull and squat close to 500.

I know I can do a lot more with my bench (its only 275) but gains aren’t easy to come by after 6 years or hitting the weights even with slightly more than 200 grams of protein a day. I know HIT is overated but I quit following that philosophy about a year ago.

I now use a max-ot style routine except i use a 6-8 rep scheme instead of a 4-6. I really would like the try the 5x5 routine animalmass posted on musclezine as the idea of three hardcore fullbody workouts a week seems like it would do the trick if i were to go on a cycle

And in another forum topic/poll, asking about how much you can squat, he responded - which proves the point about natural strength and rate coding me thinks… and why he had a natural 38 inch vertical jump


Got to 315x20 within six months of squating. My legs are just naturally very strong.

I have a question…Im doing squats, 5x4 @ 85% of my max at the moment… Does anyone find these INSANELY hard to do? Im talking a true 85% of ones max squat.

It seems like every bit counts, like I have to be in the right mind set, my nutrition has to be down just right, well rested, has to be at a certain time in the day etc etc etc… And they are still dam hard.

I psyched myself out on the first set so I re-did it… Second was ok, and then I failed on the third set. The last two I lowered the weight by 20lbs and still had trouble. Anyone else have this problem?