So I just re-measured my vertical jump on the Vertec. I got 30" for an easy 6" loss in vertical in the past month. The problem? Heavy squatting and pulling. Since my last olympic weightlifting meet in the middle of January I have embarked on a heavy squat/pulling program to work on my raw strength. I cut out plyometrics. It turns out, after talking with UT basketball trainers and whatnot, that they have found out that heavy lifting actually slows athletes down.
For example, a basketball trainer told me when Kevin Durant came in he was really weak all around but had a good vertical. The coaches got him on a “big squat” program which killed his hops. They took him off and had him work on functional jumping exercises, and his vertical once again shot up.
Does squatting help you jump higher? No, absolutely not. It will slow you down/make you jump lower. I never understood how guys my size could squat 600 lbs raw and not even be able to dunk a basketball, when I could do some pretty cool dunks while squatting 1/2 as much as them (and run faster).
This has been quite a revelation for me as I always thought a higher squat meant a higher jump. Evidently not.
I’m pissed as fuck right now that I spent a month working exercises which KILLED my vertical (which I’ve worked almost all year on). The good news is my vertical should come back within about two weeks according to the trainers. I’ve started another plyometric/jump squat routine with one-foot jumping exercises on the off days that I feel like jumping, along with playing league basketball.
It seems that there is a LOT of debate within the kinesiology departments about whether squatting/pulling is actually as effective as solid jump training for functional strength and power. It seems the long held notion that “squat is king” is being called into question by smart coaches and trainers. The news that the squat/deadlift variations might hurt instead of help your athletic performance was a real shocker.
[quote]TurboLykes wrote:
So I just re-measured my vertical jump on the Vertec. I got 30" for an easy 6" loss in vertical in the past month. The problem? Heavy squatting and pulling. Since my last olympic weightlifting meet in the middle of January I have embarked on a heavy squat/pulling program to work on my raw strength. I cut out plyometrics. It turns out, after talking with UT basketball trainers and whatnot, that they have found out that heavy lifting actually slows athletes down.
For example, a basketball trainer told me when Kevin Durant came in he was really weak all around but had a good vertical. The coaches got him on a “big squat” program which killed his hops. They took him off and had him work on functional jumping exercises, and his vertical once again shot up.
Does squatting help you jump higher? No, absolutely not. It will slow you down/make you jump lower. I never understood how guys my size could squat 600 lbs raw and not even be able to dunk a basketball, when I could do some pretty cool dunks while squatting 1/2 as much as them (and run faster).
This has been quite a revelation for me as I always thought a higher squat meant a higher jump. Evidently not.
I’m pissed as fuck right now that I spent a month working exercises which KILLED my vertical (which I’ve worked almost all year on). The good news is my vertical should come back within about two weeks according to the trainers. I’ve started another plyometric/jump squat routine with one-foot jumping exercises on the off days that I feel like jumping, along with playing league basketball.
It seems that there is a LOT of debate within the kinesiology departments about whether squatting/pulling is actually as effective as solid jump training for functional strength and power. It seems the long held notion that “squat is king” is being called into question by smart coaches and trainers. The news that the squat/deadlift variations might hurt instead of help your athletic performance was a real shocker.[/quote]
Have you done a deload week recently? You might just be fatigued.
Are you referring to the back squat, or all squat variations?
My one foot is higher when I don’t squat, but my two foot jump is higher when I do. That’slife.
I don’t see how you can squatting doesn’t help you jump higher. There have been many people who have squatted and their vertical went up.
[quote]TurboLykes wrote:
So I just re-measured my vertical jump on the Vertec. I got 30" for an easy 6" loss in vertical in the past month. The problem? Heavy squatting and pulling. Since my last olympic weightlifting meet in the middle of January I have embarked on a heavy squat/pulling program to work on my raw strength. I cut out plyometrics. It turns out, after talking with UT basketball trainers and whatnot, that they have found out that heavy lifting actually slows athletes down.
For example, a basketball trainer told me when Kevin Durant came in he was really weak all around but had a good vertical. The coaches got him on a “big squat” program which killed his hops. They took him off and had him work on functional jumping exercises, and his vertical once again shot up.
Does squatting help you jump higher? No, absolutely not. It will slow you down/make you jump lower. I never understood how guys my size could squat 600 lbs raw and not even be able to dunk a basketball, when I could do some pretty cool dunks while squatting 1/2 as much as them (and run faster).
This has been quite a revelation for me as I always thought a higher squat meant a higher jump. Evidently not.
I’m pissed as fuck right now that I spent a month working exercises which KILLED my vertical (which I’ve worked almost all year on). The good news is my vertical should come back within about two weeks according to the trainers. I’ve started another plyometric/jump squat routine with one-foot jumping exercises on the off days that I feel like jumping, along with playing league basketball.
It seems that there is a LOT of debate within the kinesiology departments about whether squatting/pulling is actually as effective as solid jump training for functional strength and power. It seems the long held notion that “squat is king” is being called into question by smart coaches and trainers. The news that the squat/deadlift variations might hurt instead of help your athletic performance was a real shocker.[/quote]
Man, I’m not sure what to tell you. When I posted my 41.5" I did no jump training. Actually, until recently I never did any direct jump training. Just squats, cleans, some other accessory stuff and play ball a couple of times a month. All that led to 360’s and two-hand cockbacks off of drop steps. I’d say there’s something else in there that you’re overlooking as far as your loss is concerned. Also, did you use the same testing facility and same measure of testing? It’s entirely possible that your 36" was inflated due to improper measuring.
Also wanted to add I was doing backsquats with a shoulder width stance. Box squats never did shit for me, the super wide stance “powerlifting” style squat never did shit for me, atg squats didn’t do much, etc… Just shoulder width back squats to parrallel or slightly lower for reps in the 3-5 range. Add in some hamstring and calf work in the 8-10 range and I was set.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Also wanted to add I was doing backsquats with a shoulder width stance. Box squats never did shit for me, the super wide stance “powerlifting” style squat never did shit for me, atg squats didn’t do much, etc… Just shoulder width back squats to parrallel or slightly lower for reps in the 3-5 range. Add in some hamstring and calf work in the 8-10 range and I was set.[/quote]
What things did you do for hamstrings?
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Also wanted to add I was doing backsquats with a shoulder width stance. Box squats never did shit for me, the super wide stance “powerlifting” style squat never did shit for me, atg squats didn’t do much, etc… Just shoulder width back squats to parrallel or slightly lower for reps in the 3-5 range. Add in some hamstring and calf work in the 8-10 range and I was set.[/quote]
What things did you do for hamstrings?[/quote]
This might go against everything written on the subject of athletic training, but usually just leg curls. Was at a 24hr fitness at the time and didn’t have access to much else.
So basically I squatted heavy [3-5 reps] for multiple sets, cleaned [usually hang but sometimes from the floor], did some really basic accessory stuff and played ball once a week, sometimes less.
I also stretched like it was going out of style. After workouts, after playing, at home… All of that led to a marked increase in my hops and speed, and this is for someone who was pretty damn fast and could dunk pretty easily at 5’9’.
[quote]bluefingas wrote:
Have you done a deload week recently? You might just be fatigued.
Are you referring to the back squat, or all squat variations?
My one foot is higher when I don’t squat, but my two foot jump is higher when I do. That’slife.
I don’t see how you can squatting doesn’t help you jump higher. There have been many people who have squatted and their vertical went up.[/quote]
I’m always cycling the loads, but I haven’t been doing any heavy (90%+) squatting in about two months. Yes, we do the main squat variations(front, back, and overhead). All ATG, olympic style.
Squatting makes you slower I guess because it trains the slower-twitch fibres, because squatting is a completely different kinesthetic movement than jumping. Not that having a bigger squat gives you more “potential power.” Of course a stronger strength base isn’t going to hurt anything. But, like my trainer friend said, “There’s a time and a place for increasing strength. It’s called off-season.”
The question is, to those guys who claimed squatting increased their vertical, were they getting increases while they were squatting a lot to get their strength up?
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Man, I’m not sure what to tell you. When I posted my 41.5" I did no jump training. Actually, until recently I never did any direct jump training. Just squats, cleans, some other accessory stuff and play ball a couple of times a month. All that led to 360’s and two-hand cockbacks off of drop steps. I’d say there’s something else in there that you’re overlooking as far as your loss is concerned. Also, did you use the same testing facility and same measure of testing? It’s entirely possible that your 36" was inflated due to improper measuring.[/quote]
Well, I know why I was losing. I wasn’t doing any jump training. That’s what those trainers have made clear to me. “Squat != run fast, jump high.”
And like my olympic weightlifting coaches told me, “You can’t be great at both sports. If you want to get good at basketball it’s going to come at the expense of lifting big weights, and vice versa.” Sure, maybe if I were on some great steroids or had an insane amount of recovery I could work both, but the central nervous system has its limits.
Yes, it was in the same facility that I originally measured in, using the same Vertec as my trainer back home. Same reach, everything. I don’t bullshit. It’s still a great vertical, but it’s sad when it goes down that significantly.
For example, I haven’t been able to pull off a 180 two-handed dunk since I started a heavy squat routine last month. What I have noticed though is I’ve “forgot” how to jump a little.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Man, I’m not sure what to tell you. When I posted my 41.5" I did no jump training. Actually, until recently I never did any direct jump training. Just squats, cleans, some other accessory stuff and play ball a couple of times a month. All that led to 360’s and two-hand cockbacks off of drop steps. I’d say there’s something else in there that you’re overlooking as far as your loss is concerned. Also, did you use the same testing facility and same measure of testing? It’s entirely possible that your 36" was inflated due to improper measuring.[/quote]
Well, I know why I was losing. I wasn’t doing any jump training. That’s what those trainers have made clear to me. “Squat != run fast, jump high.”
And like my olympic weightlifting coaches told me, “You can’t be great at both sports. If you want to get good at basketball it’s going to come at the expense of lifting big weights, and vice versa.” Sure, maybe if I were on some great steroids or had an insane amount of recovery I could work both, but the central nervous system has its limits.
Yes, it was in the same facility that I originally measured in, using the same Vertec as my trainer back home. Same reach, everything. I don’t bullshit. It’s still a great vertical, but it’s sad when it goes down that significantly.
For example, I haven’t been able to pull off a 180 two-handed dunk since I started a heavy squat routine last month. What I have noticed though is I’ve “forgot” how to jump a little.[/quote]
That’s weird man. I did some box jumps that I posted a little while ago, but other than that I do NO jump training outside of playing occasionally and I can still put down reverse 180’s and lob cockbacks, and that’s with one surgically repaired knee and the other knee awaiting surgery. Maybe I’m an odd case. Or, maybe the way I play would be considered “jump training”. Maybe you need to be playing a bit more during your strength phase?
[quote]bluefingas wrote:
Have you done a deload week recently? You might just be fatigued.
Are you referring to the back squat, or all squat variations?
My one foot is higher when I don’t squat, but my two foot jump is higher when I do. That’slife.
I don’t see how you can squatting doesn’t help you jump higher. There have been many people who have squatted and their vertical went up.[/quote]
I’m always cycling the loads, but I haven’t been doing any heavy (90%+) squatting in about two months. Yes, we do the main squat variations(front, back, and overhead). All ATG, olympic style.
Squatting makes you slower I guess because it trains the slower-twitch fibres, because squatting is a completely different kinesthetic movement than jumping. Not that having a bigger squat gives you more “potential power.” Of course a stronger strength base isn’t going to hurt anything. But, like my trainer friend said, “There’s a time and a place for increasing strength. It’s called off-season.”
The question is, to those guys who claimed squatting increased their vertical, were they getting increases while they were squatting a lot to get their strength up?[/quote]
Maybe I missed this, but how do you squat ‘heavy’? As in, do you have a tendency to grind alot of reps or do you stop your set once you get noticeably slower out of the hole? How’s your form as you get to 90% and beyond?
Interested in this myself
[quote]bluefingas wrote:
Have you done a deload week recently? You might just be fatigued.
Are you referring to the back squat, or all squat variations?
My one foot is higher when I don’t squat, but my two foot jump is higher when I do. That’slife.
I don’t see how you can squatting doesn’t help you jump higher. There have been many people who have squatted and their vertical went up.[/quote]
I’m always cycling the loads, but I haven’t been doing any heavy (90%+) squatting in about two months. Yes, we do the main squat variations(front, back, and overhead). All ATG, olympic style.
Squatting makes you slower I guess because it trains the slower-twitch fibres, because squatting is a completely different kinesthetic movement than jumping. Not that having a bigger squat gives you more “potential power.” Of course a stronger strength base isn’t going to hurt anything. But, like my trainer friend said, “There’s a time and a place for increasing strength. It’s called off-season.”
The question is, to those guys who claimed squatting increased their vertical, were they getting increases while they were squatting a lot to get their strength up?[/quote]
I found that my vert increased after some rest. I never had my vert go down considerably when squatting (it only went down an inch or two). I don’t go ATG. I just do shoulder width regular squats like flash. (i think)
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
That’s weird man. I did some box jumps that I posted a little while ago, but other than that I do NO jump training outside of playing occasionally and I can still put down reverse 180’s and lob cockbacks, and that’s with one surgically repaired knee and the other knee awaiting surgery. Maybe I’m an odd case. Or, maybe the way I play would be considered “jump training”. Maybe you need to be playing a bit more during your strength phase?[/quote]
I usually only play ball once a week. You might just be really gifted with a lot of Type IIb muscle fibres.
[quote]rundymc wrote:
Maybe I missed this, but how do you squat ‘heavy’? As in, do you have a tendency to grind alot of reps or do you stop your set once you get noticeably slower out of the hole? How’s your form as you get to 90% and beyond?
Interested in this myself[/quote]
Squatting 3 times a week generally at 70% for 30-60 reps. We haven’t been squatting 90%+ in a while. I’m not sure how my form is at max, but I have the flexibility to sit on my calves and whatnot. I’m following a squat program from an olympic lifter and former Cleveland Browns football player.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
That’s weird man. I did some box jumps that I posted a little while ago, but other than that I do NO jump training outside of playing occasionally and I can still put down reverse 180’s and lob cockbacks, and that’s with one surgically repaired knee and the other knee awaiting surgery. Maybe I’m an odd case. Or, maybe the way I play would be considered “jump training”. Maybe you need to be playing a bit more during your strength phase?[/quote]
I usually only play ball once a week. You might just be really gifted with a lot of Type IIb muscle fibres.[/quote]
T, here’s a quote from a Kelly Bagget article-
“Strength training boosts up your ability to jump but in order to fully express that ability you SOMETIMES need to cut back on the heavy loading for a while. Nothing stimulates all the muscle fibers in your legs like performing a full squat. However, that stimulation can sometimes induce a chronic low grade state of fatigue in your legs. That fatigue can mask explosiveness. This isnâ??t usually much of an issue for a guy squatting 200 pounds, but if you’re in the 2x BW squat range it can be an issue. After several weeks or months of consistent strength work it often helps to back off on it and engage in more explosive work in order to fully display the explosiveness youâ??ve gained.”
Like someone else said, maybe you just need to chill for a bit to let your body catch up.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
T, here’s a quote from a Kelly Bagget article-
“Strength training boosts up your ability to jump but in order to fully express that ability you SOMETIMES need to cut back on the heavy loading for a while. Nothing stimulates all the muscle fibers in your legs like performing a full squat. However, that stimulation can sometimes induce a chronic low grade state of fatigue in your legs. That fatigue can mask explosiveness. This isnâ??t usually much of an issue for a guy squatting 200 pounds, but if you’re in the 2x BW squat range it can be an issue. After several weeks or months of consistent strength work it often helps to back off on it and engage in more explosive work in order to fully display the explosiveness youâ??ve gained.”
Like someone else said, maybe you just need to chill for a bit to let your body catch up.[/quote]
Yeah, I hear you. I cut back this past week and worked on explosive work. My vertical has almost fully recovered. I was extremely fatigued from last week. Last Saturday (9 days ago) I did a heavy snatch/squat workout with plyometrics for 2 hours, then immediately played basketball for another 2 1/2 hours right after that. Then, later that night, I got really drunk and stayed up until 5:30 AM. The night before I had only had about 4-5 hours of sleep. I only got about 5 hours of sleep that night as well. All in all I was pretty fucked up.
Well, it’s been two months and I’m 20 pounds lighter. Oh man can I jump more, I got at least 10-15cm on my vert, my reach is about 325cm. I’m 210lbs (95kg) and plan to lose at least 10, optional 20 pounds.
Unfortunately, I couldn’t go to the gym in December and January, and my squat dropped from 115kg - 8RM to around 90kg - 8RM, so that’s not very good. I’m doing squats once a week, can’t wait till it comes back.
When I could jump well I was pretty strong. Could I jump well after a leg workout? No. Next day? No. Day after that? No. The day after that? better. Next day? even better. Next? much better. Before squatting or deadlifting again a week later? Hell yes!
I only ever “tested” my vert (with one step) at the age of twenty six (until last fall). I did it by whacking my arm against a basketball rim, I did this a time or two after racquetball. Reach “was” 8’3" and I could hit my arm 17" inches above the rim or 11’5" on a step and a two foot jump. This translated into an approximate vert with a step of 38". I lifted, played some racquetball, hopped a few hurdles, and did some of that quick feet hopping stuff. 245 pound bodyweight.
A few years earlier I high jumped 5’3" or 63" off of a step and a two foot jump. This jump was out and up enough to clear the bar and not knock it off. I even got my name in the local paper and took third in this little track meet. Lifting, hurdle hops, sprints, box jumpy things for time, and rec play. Lighter bodyweight around 235#.
I’m not trying to say hey look at me, what I am trying to get across is that you can’t discount lifting weights as being effective for producing jump height if you are not incorporating it correctly. Squatting three times a week should kill your vert. Try reducing your volume before you make a decision against an exercise. And if you are mid-season don’t squat at 70% unless you are a thrower, Oly, or football guy.
sick jump bluejay. 17" ABOVE the rim?! wtf?! That would rank you f0cking high!
I can grab the rim with 2 hands from standing but I OLift 3x a week and squat heavy 3x a week…not optimal for jumping but you do what you can. Not jumped in ages!