Uneven Abs

[T_Quinn]

[quote]You are right. A wake-up call is often a necessity for some of these people. I think both are important. Slapping some sense into people is necessary, but I also think it’s important to give people some information to work with once they’ve come around. I just see a lot of these threads where everyone says Eat Big and Lift Hard but give no information or no referals about what Eating Big and Lifting Hard actually is. Some people are ignorant and have no idea.
[/quote]

How many times have people been told, especially newbies or the 140lbs or lower class, to read articles or try this and that. yet they keep coming back asking the same damn question. I don’t care how ignorant some people are. What’s so hard to understand about EATING BIG and LIFTING HARD?

[jsbrook]

[quote]T-Quinn wrote:
You are right. A wake-up call is often a necessity for some of these people. I think both are important. Slapping some sense into people is necessary, but I also think it’s important to give people some information to work with once they’ve come around. I just see a lot of these threads where everyone says Eat Big and Lift Hard but give no information or no referals about what Eating Big and Lifting Hard actually is. Some people are ignorant and have no idea.

How many times have people been told, especially newbies or the 140lbs or lower class, to read articles or try this and that. yet they keep coming back asking the same damn question. I don’t care how ignorant some people are. What’s so hard to understand about EATING BIG and LIFTING HARD?
[/quote]

I couldn’t tell you. I didn’t realize this poster had gotten advice in a separate thread. I thought everyone was talking about shwizel. Whatever his name is. I was refering to beginning lifters who have no idea how many calories they should be eating or how to train.

Everyone makes good points. I do feel that every thread started by some kid like this should have at least one post that references Vroom’s beginner thread and Massive Eating and the like. We’re not here to hold these kid’s hands or flatter them but pointing them in the right direction is something we should want to do.

[larryb]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
WhiteLable412 wrote:
doing ab work with your legs cross will make your abs grow unevenly.

Because your abs are two different muscles? They aren’t. While “abs” sounds plural, it stands for rectus abdominus. It is ONE muscle and your legs being crossed don’t have jack shit to do with “even abs”.[/quote]

But abs are not attached at a single point on each end. I don’t know if selective firing of one side is possible, but even if not, you can tilt your body so one side of the muscle is somewhat stretched and the other somewhat compressed while doing a crunch. I imagine that could have an uneven effect on development, however minor it might be.

Of course, that has nothing to do with this kid’s “problem”.

[buffalokilla]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
buffalokilla wrote:
Tell me, how do people develop an imbalance between their VM (specifically the VMO) and their VL? It’s all quads performing knee flexion, isn’t it?

http://www.biofitness.com/anatomy.gif

The heads/bellies of the quadriceps:
Heads

1. Rectus Femoris
2. Vastus Lateralis (Externus)
3. Vastus Intermedius
4. Vastus Medialis (Internus)

From another site:
The biarticulate rectus femoris [1 ] enters passive insufficiency through the completion of knee flexion when the hips are more extended or through the completion of hip extension when the knees are more flexed. The biarticulate rectus femoris [1 ] enters active insufficiency through the completion of knee extension when the hips are more flexed (other heads of the quadriceps [2, 3, 4 ] become more active) or through the completion of hip flexion when the knees are more extended (other hip flexors become more active).
[/quote]

This has no bearing on what I asked…
it just explains that the rectus femoris doesn’t contribute much to knee extension when the hip is flexed, much like how seated calf raises “target” the soleus. Or how it can’t contract any more to contribute to hip flexion when it extends the knee while the hip is flexed. The rectus femoris rarely contributes to patellar tracking issues outside of being too tight.

And:

Vastus Medialis Weakness

Increased risk of knee injury (chondramalicia) during knee extension activities. The patella becomes laterally displaced with the pull of the vastus lateralis. This patella tracking problem can produce wear on the inferior petellar surface. Greater pain is usually experienced during leg extension activities in which the knee is a greater than a 20 to 30 degree angle. 

* Examples of affected exercises:
      o Leg Press
      o Squat
      o Leg Extension 
* Example preventative / corrective exercises:
      o Single Leg Extensions (last 20 degrees of extension)
      o Leg Press (last 20 degrees of extension) 

Those are two of the most ineffective exercises for correcting a VM/VMO imbalance around. Pederson stepups, sled dragging, and full front squats performed with forward knee motion work much better.

It also doesn’t describe the pathology.

But anyway, you missed my point, I was being a little sarcastic. I was trying to get you to think about the physics involved in muscle action. Without drawing a huge force vector diagram, the VL produces more force than the VM when you’re performing motions involving abduction and knee extension, such as parallel powerlifting style squats. Each of the 4 quads is innervated seperately, and many different bundles of fibers within each of these 4 seperate quads are innervated seperately; they just usually are all activated at once to perform a task that demands it.

My point here is that if someone has been doing situps/crunches improperly so that the right or left side of the rectus abdominus has been doing more work than the other (due to any number of things, including tightness on one side of the lower back, hip flexor dysfunction, a bad habit from being uncoordinated, etc) you CAN develop unevenly. Saying that because the rectus ab is one muscle it must all develop evenly is ignoring basic physics. By your description, I could load a 50lbs weight to my right shoulder and do normal crunches for 20 years and not have the slightest bit of unevenness in my rectus ab.

It’s not really pertinent to this discussion though if the original poster doesn’t have any dysfunction, though this picture you speak of doesn’t seem to exist (at least any more). Couldn’t find it by going to his profile and looking at all of his posts.

As always, consult your physician before believing anything anyone on here says, as we’re not doctors (well, most of us anyway).

-Dan

[Jonathansucks]

To all newbies i was a former skinny guy just about two years ago and i achieved to weight around 200 pounds. From 129 to 200 WITHOUT chemicals can be done . BUST YOUR ASS ON THE KTCHEN then LIFT FUCKING BIG

http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=560908

Numbers now
squat: 455
dead:585
bench:320 without gear

YOU CAN DO IT
Jon

[Professor_X]

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
My point here is that if someone has been doing situps/crunches improperly so that the right or left side of the rectus abdominus has been doing more work than the other (due to any number of things, including tightness on one side of the lower back, hip flexor dysfunction, a bad habit from being uncoordinated, etc) you CAN develop unevenly. Saying that because the rectus ab is one muscle it must all develop evenly is ignoring basic physics. By your description, I could load a 50lbs weight to my right shoulder and do normal crunches for 20 years and not have the slightest bit of unevenness in my rectus ab. [/quote]

I’ll wait as you show me just one documented case of this happening, where someone’s abs developed noticeably unevenly simply due to training technique or “tightness”. The ab muscle doesn’t contract on one side more than the other. That is the reason for the tranverse abdominus and the obliques, to perform those alternate movements…NOT the rectus abdominus. You went through a lot of trouble to prove that you were asleep throughg the most basic anatomy and physiology course.

[buffalokilla]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’ll wait as you show me just one documented case of this happening, where someone’s abs developed noticeably unevenly simply due to training technique or “tightness”. The ab muscle doesn’t contract on one side more than the other. That is the reason for the tranverse abdominus and the obliques, to perform those alternate movements…NOT the rectus abdominus. You went through a lot of trouble to prove that you were asleep throughg the most basic anatomy and physiology course.[/quote]

You’ll be waiting a while on documentation, as I’m not connected to my school’s network right now.

I suppose you think you can’t emphasize the upper and lower portions of the rectus ab either?

-Dan

[thefuture]

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/7/0/707522.1122855199557.Pit.bmp

well this goes out to ever that has something to say about me bein too skinny its not my fault, im not a lard ass… anyway im still growing im only 15 i still have plenty of time to gain weight also i have hard time gaining because i have a fast metablolism.

And yes before u all start tellin me to take protein and lift more, i already am, its just not havin any effect yet or so it seems. So if everyone would kindly jump off my dick and lay off, it would be greatly appreciated, thanks

[OneEye]

[quote]thefuture wrote:
well this goes out to ever that has something to say about me bein too skinny its not my fault, im not a lard ass… anyway im still growing im only 15 i still have plenty of time to gain weight also i have hard time gaining because i have a fast metablolism.

And yes before u all start tellin me to take protein and lift more, i already am, its just not havin any effect yet or so it seems. So if everyone would kindly jump off my dick and lay off, it would be greatly appreciated, thanks[/quote]

Watch your attitude or nobody will help you.

Being skinny may not be “your fault,” but you’re not doing anything about it either. I weighed the same as you did when I was your age and all through high school. When I graduated I was 5’10’’ and 155 lbs, and now I’m 200 lbs at the same height. 20 of those were my “freshman 15 (20),” but I needed it because I was unhealthy. The rest I’ve put on in the last 4 months from eating big and lifting hard. I don’t want to hear any crap about you having a fast metabolism, I’m the king of fast metabolisms. You just have to want it badly enough to do something about it.

It isn’t just more protein you need, it’s also more carbs and fats. Lots of food. Steak and mashed potatoes, chicken, fish, eggs, pasta, brown rice, lots of fruit and veggies, nuts, cheese, natural peanut butter or almond butter (really good stuff), EFAs, and lots of whole milk. That should do the trick. Each of your 6 meals of the day should have plenty of 2 or 3 (or more) of those ingredients. If you can manage half a gallon of whole milk per day, that’s an additional 1200 calories or so. Half a gallon isn’t very difficult to do either.

[Professor_X]

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I’ll wait as you show me just one documented case of this happening, where someone’s abs developed noticeably unevenly simply due to training technique or “tightness”. The ab muscle doesn’t contract on one side more than the other. That is the reason for the tranverse abdominus and the obliques, to perform those alternate movements…NOT the rectus abdominus. You went through a lot of trouble to prove that you were asleep throughg the most basic anatomy and physiology course.

You’ll be waiting a while on documentation, as I’m not connected to my school’s network right now.

I suppose you think you can’t emphasize the upper and lower portions of the rectus ab either?

-Dan[/quote]

I never wrote any such thing and no, I don’t believe that. Admit it, the human body was built to accomodate ever scenario you mentioned and still not cause one sided hypertrophy to the one muscle group that makes up the rectus abdominus. Any lateral movement, even in your example of holding a weight on one shoulder, would be controlled by the transverse abdominus and obliques. Don’t give out wrong information just so you can pretend to be right in a discussion.

Beyond that, this has nothing to do with this poster and the extent you went to just to cover up basic function of the muscles involved confuses me.

[buffalokilla]

Shoulda listened to Chad, shoulda listened to Chad…

I give up. I’m not covering up the basic function. I’m looking deeper than basics.

-Dan

[jsbrook]

[quote]thefuture wrote:
well this goes out to ever that has something to say about me bein too skinny its not my fault, im not a lard ass… anyway im still growing im only 15 i still have plenty of time to gain weight also i have hard time gaining because i have a fast metablolism.

And yes before u all start tellin me to take protein and lift more, i already am, its just not havin any effect yet or so it seems. So if everyone would kindly jump off my dick and lay off, it would be greatly appreciated, thanks[/quote]

Post a detailed account of your training and diet.

[Kablooey]

[quote]infamous1 wrote:
Uneven abs is common and is caused by hip disalignment or sumthing like that. Its where one of your hip is higher than the other. Its a genetic thing and I have heard of some people putting socks or padding in their shoes on the side that is lower to try and correct this. I’m not sure if that works though.[/quote]

Sounds like just what I was talking about. One of my hips is just slightly higher than the other, caused by one leg being just slightly longer than the other.

P.S. – I think people are jumping all over this guy to talk about their own pet peeves, not really addressing the issue of the post at all. The guy didn’t ask to be yelled at for being skinny. Lots of people are skinny, and it hardly makes them evil, lazy, or stupid, or their every question or concern nonsensical or idiotic. The least that could be done is get over ourselves long enough to answer a question instead of just finding someone to ambush with our pet peeves.

The guy has an imbalance and is curious about it and what he should do. So he asked. Which is an utterly normal thing to do, and probably a smart one – though perhaps not on this board, from the tone and obliviousness of some of the “answers” he got.

[Kablooey]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Can we all try referring these scrawny bastards to Massive Eating rather than just insulting them? Maybe that will actually get them to realize they need to gain mass and how to do it. It may be fun to tell some skeleton that they need to gain 50 lbs and insult them in 10 other ways, but if you actually want to help them do it, that’s probably not gonna do anything.[/quote]

Well said. The guy didn’t come to get pooped on for being skinny, which was totally irrelevant to his question. Leaping on that for some self-indulgent put-downs was pointless and useless.