As Ice T says “I aint new to this”.
Hije no ato tsukai is the 15th basic technique that is taught in the primary system I study. After 30years I think I know a thing or two about how to use a Hije elbow strike. I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it.
If you are going to criticise my understanding of ufc rules the least you could do is a google search and read them for yourself. http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules Read number 10.
Fouls: [Top]
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.
So I’ll say this again in the first round when they were laying on their backs with Randy’s legs wrapped around Tim’s midsection. Randy was in a very vulnerable position to be visciously elbowed by Tim. In a real fight Randy would not have wanted to stay there.
The point of the elbow can be a very viscious weapon, because it focuses the force into a very small area generating high pressures. This is pascals law.
There are several nerve centers, groin muscles, tendons and the femoral artery that were all available to Tim, who was in a position to make Randy feel like they had just been hit with a ball and peen hammer.
A true martial artist will know how to use any part of their body as a weapon nor will they easily run out of targets to hit.
Watch the Georges St.Pierre vs matt hughes fight and you will see GSP knows how to hit the inner thigh.
I point this out because this board has quite a few UFC cheerleaders whose martial arts background doesn’t go past having UFC on pay per view. There are also one or two who do have MMA training who are great examples of the mentality of my styles better than your style.
I think that if there is one core value of MMA that is important that some of our MMA proponents are lacking in it is open mindedness. A true MMA should be open minded and always on the look out for a good idea to add into the mix. A big part of that is humility which one of you is really lacking.
Here is my two favorite heavyweights either one of who could probably beat Randy fighting each other. This is my idea of an exciting fight. This is the referee cam view if any of you wonder why it’s jerky.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
As Ice T says “I aint new to this”.
Hije no ato tsukai is the 15th basic technique that is taught in the primary system I study. After 30years I think I know a thing or two about how to use a Hije elbow strike. I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it.
A big part of that is humility which one of you is really lacking.
[/quote]
Clearly you have no problems at all with humility.
In someone’s guard, is it better to:
a)elbow them in the thigh, causing pain, to be sure, but which requires (like leg kicks) significant and accuracy to create anything more than discomfort
OR
b)punch them in the face?
Fedor is best known for massive bombs from inside the guard. Not the best example of your point.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
If you are going to criticise my understanding of ufc rules the least you could do is a google search and read them for yourself. UFC Fight Cards, Watch Times, Live Stats | UFC.com Read number 10.
Fouls: [Top]
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
[/quote]
Ummmm, that only proves my point. The use of the word ‘downward’ in the rule is in reference to the 12-to-6 motion that I alluded to.
None other than big Jon McCarthy himself posted extensively about this subject on the MMA.tv forums after the Hughes-Gracie fight. He said that as long as a fighter doesn’t bring the strike down in a 12-to-6 motion (relative to the floor) that elbow point strikes are perfectly legal.
Point-of-the-elbow point strikes are used frequently in the UFC in a 3-to-9 motion (parallel to the floor) from side control. They become more and more rare as the angle increases towards 12-to-6 (perpendicular to the floor), but they are still legal.
Sylvia COULD have throw point-of-the-elbow strikes to Couture’s thighs, but it either (a) never occured to him or (b) he chose not to. Striking Couture’s thighs would not have required a 12-to-6 angle, and therefore it would have been completely legal. I suspect he chose to keep his focus on maintaining wrist control to fend off any RNC attempts.
Thanks for the info about elbows. It’s interesting to know, but it just lowered my estimation of a lot of ufc fighters.
Point of the elbow can be a brutally effective strike. It is a naturally dense bone that you don’t have to spend years conditioning. If it comes up against other bones it quite often is the winner.
I’ll give you an example, two guys from my dojo were kinda rough housing at a bar and one tried a spinning backfist but was too close and ended up elbowing his buddy in the face breaking his eye socket. They weren’t really trying to hurt each other either. Another guy from the dojo had to have his eye socket replaced with a teflon prosthetic after another spinning backfist accident. This is why blind spinning backfists are banned at most karate tournaments.
Point of the elbow is also something to be very careful of when throwing kicks.
I don’t understand why Tim didn’t work Randy’s legs then. Maybe the thrown fight idea isn’t so far fetched. The target was right there and the point of the elbow would have penetrated in a way that a roundhouse with the shin never would.
All Tim needed to do was left, right, left, right, rapid fire elbows and Randy would have wanted him off of him. Tim could have done the kind of damage that would have seriously slowed Randy down in the stand up.
Plus tim could have rolled over a little bit to get a better angle and pulverized Randy’s face with elbows way worse than what Franklin got from Silva.
That was a serious lost opportunity to finish that fight in the first round.
I’ve never watched this from the ref cam before. It’s absolutely stunning how efficiently Fedor moves.[/quote]
That whole fight was a good display of skills. Crocop looked like he was playing a game of chess trying to lure Fedor in.
I think Fedor is a really talented wrestler. Fedor has excellent kinestetic sense of his opponent. I’ve seen him be in a position where he could not possibly see his opponents arm but reach down and grab it just like he was looking at it. I’ve got to give props to Crocop for going the distance as well as he did.
[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Mirko is a stronger, faster, more technical version of Chuck.
With one key difference being that Mirko does not have Chuck’s ability to get back up after a takedown.
Granted, it is a bitch to get Cro Cop down in the first place, but once he is down he just tries to stalemate the his opponent and get the ref to stand things back up. It will be interesting to see how that approach plays out when he is jammed up against the fence and his opponent is raining down elbows.[/quote]
Yes Crocop will have to deal with the UFC rules. There isn’t anybody who will give Crocop much trouble standing up barring a big lucky shot. The thing about Crocop is standing up he can have a gameplan and when that goes out the window is he just adapt to what is being thrown at him(not just him of course but other strikers who have fought at the world class level).
What Randy did standing up against Tim won’t work against Crocop because Mirko is a southpaw. He will have to come up with entire new gameplan. That is obvious of course. I get the impression though many of the mma strikers make extremely specific gameplans. I get this impression from the repetitive and deliberate nature of their strategy and the textbook(simple) method that they employ.
You can see the pattern and predict what will happen and what they are looking for. This is not to say more sophisticated strikers do not do the same things. It is a matter of degree. It is the feeling I get. So I don’t have concrete proof.
WHat I just said could also be applied to a fighter with average submission abilities on the ground. Not exactly the same but there are similarities.
Whats up, my brothers. I didn’t get to see the fights, but if any of you have Sirius sattelite radio, they interview these dudes all the time. Hell, Kurt Angle is trying to fight in the UFC. They were interviewing Hulk Hogan the other day, and he said, “There is always an over,” meaning the UFC fights could be somewhat setup just as WWE is scripted. After seeing Gracie go down, then Sylvia, he may have a point…
All Tim needed to do was left, right, left, right, rapid fire elbows and Randy would have wanted him off of him. Tim could have done the kind of damage that would have seriously slowed Randy down in the stand up.[/quote]
Wouldn’t Randy have just choked him out? If Tim was using both arms to throw elbows, he could not have maintained control of Randy’s wrists. Randy would have simply sunk in the RNC while Tim was going to town on his quads.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
slimjim wrote:
It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that Timmy took a dive, it’s just my opinion and you have offered no evidence to the contrary.
A classic appeal to ignorance. Since no can disprove your “theory,” it is viable. NOT!
You’re the one making the claim. You bear the burden of proving your claim. Can you prove it?
Seems to me I clearly stated that it was my opinion…oh wait, yep, there it is in two of my posts on the subject.
You guys, on the other hand, offer up your opinions as if they are fact with nothing to back it up. I don’t feel like arguing semantics with you because you obviously have more time your hands than I do. However, do try to at least keep my statements in the context they were written in. [/quote]
Slimjim, I haven’t seen the fight but I have to agree with you. It is possible Sylvia took a dive for any number of reasons.
Anyone that thinks this cannot happen is probably naive.
Dana White is the Vince McMahon of MMA.
I don’t think he is fixing the all the fights but it wouldn’t surprise me if certain fighters were not giving it all they had.
All Tim needed to do was left, right, left, right, rapid fire elbows and Randy would have wanted him off of him. Tim could have done the kind of damage that would have seriously slowed Randy down in the stand up.
Wouldn’t Randy have just choked him out? If Tim was using both arms to throw elbows, he could not have maintained control of Randy’s wrists. Randy would have simply sunk in the RNC while Tim was going to town on his quads.
[/quote]
Exactly. The idea that throwing elbow strikes to the thighs of Randy will explode his thighs and cause him to just let go of Tim and lose complete control of what he is doing so that he can’t even move his arm around Tim’s neck for the RNC is ridiculous.
Like you said Tim knew he needed to maintain wrist control so that Randy couldn’t choke him out. Sunk RNC = guaranteed. Elbow strikes to Randy’s thighs while he has your back and you are letting his hands go free = such a low percentage chance of succeeding it isn’t even worth thinking about.
Is it really necessary for you Sylvia fans to cry fixed fight just because your boy got owned? Really Look back at those WWF Fights that we all know are fixed, even the most violent ones usually added up to a bunch of pulled punchs and at least one guy cutting himself on the forehead but thats about it barring an accidentally real injury. Now look at TIms face! If he took a dive he did it in the most convincing manner ever, Bullshit, alot of Randys punchs were thrown to knock a man out, and as much as I dislike Tim as a fighter he has a strong chin and that saved his ass a couple times in this fight. What I’m saying is if he were taking a dive he would have just done it and not taken the beating he took, did you see his face at the end? Shit he was busted up pretty bad! I think you guys who are calling this fixed are either grossly overrating Sylvia’s fighting ability or grossly underating Randy’s, maybe both. I think Timmay expected to dominate on the feet and when Randy knocked the shit out him in the first 20 seconds that plan went out the window, Timmay’s corner kept telling him to push the pace but either out of fear of getting finished or the hope of landing that lucky bomb he played right into Randy’s plan and got what we all wanted to see, his 3rd lose. But hey thats just one man’s opinion.
I think that the UFC is happy having Randy as champ. Much more marketable. A Couture-Crocop match would most likely sell better also.
I don’t think it was fixed. I get the impression that people thought Sylvia was actually an elite HW. Against that perception maybe it looks suspicious.
Maybe Sylvia deserved to be ranked a top ten HW because of his accomplishments. Still that doesn’t mean he was even close to having the talent and ability of his fellow top ranked HWs.
Randy knew he could beat Sylvia. The reasons he thought so are obvious if you watch a Tim Sylvia fight.
Granted I’m new to this and don’t understand the politics behind it all, but since the whole WORLD would apparently love to see the Pride HW champ (Fedor) fight the UFC HW champ (who is now Randy, but even back when it was Tim), with the money that would bring in, why on earth wouldn’t Pride and UFC agree to strike a deal and set up such a fight, split the profits, maybe give a slight edge to whichever organization’s fighter wins . . . maybe even have a whole night of Pride vs. UFC, meaning the entire undercard as well?
There’s mountains of money to be made, and it’s in both of their best interests. Why haven’t they done this, I wonder?
[quote]Damici wrote:
Granted I’m new to this and don’t understand the politics behind it all, but since the whole WORLD would apparently love to see the Pride HW champ (Fedor) fight the UFC HW champ (who is now Randy, but even back when it was Tim), with the money that would bring in, why on earth wouldn’t Pride and UFC agree to strike a deal and set up such a fight, split the profits, maybe give a slight edge to whichever organization’s fighter wins . . . maybe even have a whole night of Pride vs. UFC, meaning the entire undercard as well?
There’s mountains of money to be made, and it’s in both of their best interests. Why haven’t they done this, I wonder?[/quote]
Because Dana White is a jackass who wants to be the only game in town.
I think its a reputation thing, if they had a Pride vs. UFC night and Pride dominated then the UFCs image would be tarnished and it could hurt ticket sales in the future. Its hard to claim you have the best fighters in the world after they get beat by a bunch of better fighters from an organization that to most TUF fans is unknown. And on the off chance the UFC fighters dominated it would destroy Prides rep as well.
As much as we would love to see it, it will never happen unless like the WWE & WCW one absorbes the other.
If he played his cards right, couldn’t this help him become the only game in town . . . ?
[quote]Sneaky weasel wrote:
Damici wrote:
Granted I’m new to this and don’t understand the politics behind it all, but since the whole WORLD would apparently love to see the Pride HW champ (Fedor) fight the UFC HW champ (who is now Randy, but even back when it was Tim), with the money that would bring in, why on earth wouldn’t Pride and UFC agree to strike a deal and set up such a fight, split the profits, maybe give a slight edge to whichever organization’s fighter wins . . . maybe even have a whole night of Pride vs. UFC, meaning the entire undercard as well?
There’s mountains of money to be made, and it’s in both of their best interests. Why haven’t they done this, I wonder?
Because Dana White is a jackass who wants to be the only game in town.[/quote]
Well, both of them would be afraid of having their reps knokced dwon a notch or two.
-THey both make great money as it is
-It would acknowledge that there is another group as important as theirs.
But I have always asked myself why Tyson doesn’t do MMA or even a little pro wrestling (he is a huge wrestling fan and appeared on a couple of Raws and a PPV).
Tyson is the greatest PPV draw of all time, and adding him to a fight card would dramatrically increase buys.
Now neither group wants to pay him the 15 mil or so guaranteed he usually makes, but they could do him better: pay him a fee, say 1 mil, and then let him have a share/% of the buys.
I can see him not wanting to do MMA, b/c he’d certainly lose, but pro wrestling is fixed.
[quote]Damici wrote:
Granted I’m new to this and don’t understand the politics behind it all, but since the whole WORLD would apparently love to see the Pride HW champ (Fedor) fight the UFC HW champ (who is now Randy, but even back when it was Tim), with the money that would bring in, why on earth wouldn’t Pride and UFC agree to strike a deal and set up such a fight, split the profits, maybe give a slight edge to whichever organization’s fighter wins . . . maybe even have a whole night of Pride vs. UFC, meaning the entire undercard as well?
There’s mountains of money to be made, and it’s in both of their best interests. Why haven’t they done this, I wonder?[/quote]
