I’m sure there are work-shoots in MMA. As much as I disagree with it, I can see why they do it. The first two that immediately come to mind are Sean O’Haire vs Butterbean and Oleg vs Anthony Mecia (sp?). Butterbean is an attraction and sells tickets and Oleg is much more unique than Mecia so he too was also sell more tickets. In this case with Sylvia and Couture, it is definitely open to debate.
On one hand, Dana could have wanted Sylvia to get a win over someone who is credible like Couture. I’m not very impressed with Arlowski and Tim’s last victory over him wasn’t very impresive. So if Tim beat Randy, it would (hopefully) established some legitimacy for him and set up for Cro Cop. And in my opinion, I think people would rather see Cro Cop kick Tim’s head off then watch Randy get a decision over him.
On the other hand, Randy is much more marketable and a fight with Cro Cop would sell big. They could have Cro Cop now fight Tim for the number one contender spot, and Cro Cop will kill him which makes Randy (even as champion) a bigger underdog in this fight. And alot of people enjoy cheering for the underdog.
So if Randy lost to Tim, Randy fades into obscurity and the only fight now is Cro Cop vs Tim. Why would Cro Cop need to fight Randy? But now that Randy won, you have Tim and Mirko as chasers for the title. Now we have a triangle of fighters who want the title. In a sense, it is like Penn/Hughes/GSP.
So, I feel the Randy win gives the UFC more options for their lacking heavyweight division. So I can understand if the fight was a work-shoot. I’m not saying it was or wasn’t. If it was a work, then I bought into it and the fighters did a great job. If not, then it was an exciting fight to watch.
Also for the guy who was wondering why Diego is constantly fighting cans is simple: he is extremely marketable, he sells tickets and they are just trying to protect their investment. They wouldn’t give Diego a bad match. They will find him people who match up with his style so he can keep winning.
Don’t bother listening to Angle or Hogan when it comes to anything, but especially MMA. Hogan has been a liar of staggering proportions for years, and Angle is losing his mind while at the same time acquiring Hogan’s ability to exaggerate.
For the record, Angle simply cannot do an MMA match against a decent opponent. He risks being crippled. He is too beat up. His neck’s been broken twice (and he’s wrestled with it!), he’s had multiple neck surgeries, he can’t kneel, he is in constant pain and was taking up to 60 Oxycontins a day.
THe reason WWE released him is they feared he was going to die.
So, don’t listen to them.
[quote]shamus wrote:
Whats up, my brothers. I didn’t get to see the fights, but if any of you have Sirius sattelite radio, they interview these dudes all the time. Hell, Kurt Angle is trying to fight in the UFC. They were interviewing Hulk Hogan the other day, and he said, “There is always an over,” meaning the UFC fights could be somewhat setup just as WWE is scripted. After seeing Gracie go down, then Sylvia, he may have a point…[/quote]
Because Dana White is a jackass who wants to be the only game in town.[/quote]
It takes two to tango. The folks at DSE are also part of the problem. I suspect there are a couple of major sticking points.
Although diehard MMA fans know all the Pride fighters are and how skilled they are, the vast majority of the people who purchase UFC PPV have no idea who Fedor/Shogun/Filho are. If Pride & the UFC scheduled a joint event out of the blue, I don’t think it would do squat in terms of PPV buys. The only way to generate sales would be to hype up the Pride guys to the UFC’s audience, and that would certainly not be in the UFC’s best interest.
Dividing the spoils would also be a problem. Pride does great business at the gate, but their PPV sales are in the toilet. ‘The Real Deal’ did about a $3MM gate and about the same in gross PPV revenue. The UFC generates similar gate receipts (through higher ticket prices) but generates about 10 times the PPV revenue. Even if a joint event did manage to generate a ton of PPV buys, chances are that the UFC could have made the same amount of money with Shamrock-Ortiz IV and not had to split the pot.
Even though the Pride roster is stacked with talent, they really don’t bring anything to the table that could entice the UFC to do a joint show. The UFC has nothing to gain everything to lose.
[quote]Joshua632 wrote:
I think its a reputation thing, if they had a Pride vs. UFC night and Pride dominated then the UFCs image would be tarnished and it could hurt ticket sales in the future. Its hard to claim you have the best fighters in the world after they get beat by a bunch of better fighters from an organization that to most TUF fans is unknown. And on the off chance the UFC fighters dominated it would destroy Prides rep as well.
As much as we would love to see it, it will never happen unless like the WWE & WCW one absorbes the other.[/quote]
Times have changed, and the UFC would not fair too badly. They now have Crocop in addition to Werdum and Arlovski in the HW division, and if Randy is busy pulling rabbits out of his hat, who knows?
Liddell would most likely destroy Hendo. Ortiz could take Wanderlei down and sit on him, like he did the first time they fought. Anderson Silva is a good MW and Franklin may or may not be getting back on track, though Pride is much deeper here. Pride has no answer for UFC’s WW division (I know they don’t have one,) Hughes has owned Sakurai and Hellboy is too light. At lightweight, BJ Penn would tool Gomi, again. So to say UFC would be on the receiving end of a beating is a bit unfounded.
[quote]Damici wrote:
Granted I’m new to this and don’t understand the politics behind it all, but since the whole WORLD would apparently love to see the Pride HW champ (Fedor) fight the UFC HW champ (who is now Randy, but even back when it was Tim), with the money that would bring in, why on earth wouldn’t Pride and UFC agree to strike a deal and set up such a fight, split the profits, maybe give a slight edge to whichever organization’s fighter wins . . . maybe even have a whole night of Pride vs. UFC, meaning the entire undercard as well?
There’s mountains of money to be made, and it’s in both of their best interests. Why haven’t they done this, I wonder?[/quote]
I’m not sure.
The fact is that the UFC is only just blowing up and making most of it’s money from new fans who watched The Ultimate fighter, that don’t really know what Pride is. The UFC kind of markets itself as the only MMA out there. Only recently have the big Pride boys come in (Cro Cop and Rampage). So i think it’s too big of a risk for someone like Fedor who a lot of UFC fans don’t know to come in and beat up the UFC HW champ.
At the moment, Pride needs the UFC more than UFC needs Pride.
This it the type of post to be expected from a traditional karate guy. If someone has your back, you can either use your arm to keep the person from sinking a rear naked choke, or you could go for an elbow strike. Once you moved for that elbow strike, the choke would be in.
This isn’t something you can be expected to know, of course. But you should learn some grappling before making claims about what someone in a MMA fight should do.
They are rumored to be holding it at 1pm in Japan so that they can do a live PPV in the United States though. Not sure how that will go over though since it will still be way too late for any non-west coast fans to watch. I suspect it will go over like most of Pride’s business dealings lately … like a lead balloon.
It’s a shame they can’t get their ducks in a row on the financial side of things, because their product in the ring is still top notch.
[quote]supermonkey wrote:
Pride is having trouble keeping itself alive nevermind any mixed organization fights.
The April Pride event in Vegas is cancelled…[/quote]
They had to call it off since so many guys who fought on the last show were supposed to fight in April, but due to medical suspensions, wouldn’t have been medically cleared to fight by then.
They had to call it off since so many guys who fought on the last show were supposed to fight in April, but due to medical suspensions, wouldn’t have been medically cleared to fight by then.[/quote]
[quote]Djwlfpack wrote:
supermonkey wrote:
Pride is having trouble keeping itself alive nevermind any mixed organization fights.
The April Pride event in Vegas is cancelled…
They had to call it off since so many guys who fought on the last show were supposed to fight in April, but due to medical suspensions, wouldn’t have been medically cleared to fight by then.[/quote]
Fishman and Sakikibara had a falling out. Fishman footed the bill for Pride USA shows and took care of all the foot work. Without him or a similar sponsor Pride can’t run shows here.
Supermonkey, I never said Tim could make Randy’s thighs explode. Randy’s left knee was already in a padded support, that’s usually a good indication that part of the leg is a little weak. If Tim had lit up the inner nerve centers, when they got back on their feet Randy’s lead leg would have been easier to work with roundhouses.
Another important point about fighting is just because a particular technique might not be an outright fight ender it doesn’t mean it won’t slow the other guy down.
Typical MMA you and Cali Law are so busy looking for wrestling moves you over look striking opportunities. I won’t argue with you because it’s pointless. I can just tell that you are the kind of person who won’t believe an elbow can hurt until you actually eat one.
I’ve seen people like the two of you come into the dojo. Typically what happens is they are big and dumb, have an attitude and won’t be told anything. Then when it comes to fighting they’ll start trying to take out people half their size, till someone gets sick of their shit and fires them up. Then they get a hurt look on their face and say something whiney like “what did you do that for?”.
Obviously our points of view a diametrically opposed. I personally have no doubt that someone as big as Tim is not a person who one would want to just sit there and let him elbow them.
There were several times where Tim had control of both of Randy’s hands with one hand leaving the other hand free, those moments would have been great opportunities to drop an elbow in then come right back to the guard. Randy wasn’t missing opportunities to to smack him up the side of the head when it came open. Watch the video.
Another point of impracticality is how Tim could just lay there with Randy’s feet in his groin. Randy could have been hook kicking him silly. A couple of heels into the groin could have had a lot more effect than those smacks up the side of the head.
They are rumored to be holding it at 1pm in Japan so that they can do a live PPV in the United States though. Not sure how that will go over though since it will still be way too late for any non-west coast fans to watch. I suspect it will go over like most of Pride’s business dealings lately … like a lead balloon.
It’s a shame they can’t get their ducks in a row on the financial side of things, because their product in the ring is still top notch.[/quote]
Well - there having a UFC in Texas. Maybe not April, but if I am not mistaken, that’s where Serra fights GSP, and Diego goes up against Kos.
They are rumored to be holding it at 1pm in Japan so that they can do a live PPV in the United States though. Not sure how that will go over though since it will still be way too late for any non-west coast fans to watch. I suspect it will go over like most of Pride’s business dealings lately … like a lead balloon.
It’s a shame they can’t get their ducks in a row on the financial side of things, because their product in the ring is still top notch.[/quote]
My bad. You are talking Pride, and I was thinking UFC.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
Joshua632 wrote:
I think its a reputation thing, if they had a Pride vs. UFC night and Pride dominated then the UFCs image would be tarnished and it could hurt ticket sales in the future. Its hard to claim you have the best fighters in the world after they get beat by a bunch of better fighters from an organization that to most TUF fans is unknown. And on the off chance the UFC fighters dominated it would destroy Prides rep as well.
As much as we would love to see it, it will never happen unless like the WWE & WCW one absorbes the other.
Times have changed, and the UFC would not fair too badly. They now have Crocop in addition to Werdum and Arlovski in the HW division, and if Randy is busy pulling rabbits out of his hat, who knows?
Liddell would most likely destroy Hendo. Ortiz could take Wanderlei down and sit on him, like he did the first time they fought. Anderson Silva is a good MW and Franklin may or may not be getting back on track, though Pride is much deeper here. Pride has no answer for UFC’s WW division (I know they don’t have one,) Hughes has owned Sakurai and Hellboy is too light. At lightweight, BJ Penn would tool Gomi, again. So to say UFC would be on the receiving end of a beating is a bit unfounded.[/quote]
I agree with you that that the UFC would not be out of it’s league. I disagree with your match-ups though.
Hendo still is a MW(he holds the Pride MW belt).
So it should be:
Hendo-Anderson Silva
Filho-Rich Franklin
At LHW it should be Shogun and maybe Arona representing Pride. And Sherk should represent the UFC at LW. There are many match-ups for Sherk at LW, Melendez, Kawajiri, Sakurai, Gomi, Aoki.
If you think Penn tools Gomi again after how many years? Then Rampage should embarass Chuck. Penn is great and talented. Though he needs to work himself up again through the ranks.
At WW Pride doesn’t have anybody but Aoki who is a top LW and WW. Aoki fights in both Pride(LW) and Shooto(the equivalent of WW). Most people would say Aoki has no chance against GSP.
That is true standing up. GSP would most likely win that fight. Though considering what has been going on in mma it isn’t a certainty. Aoki doesn’t need to shoot on somebody to take them down, he starts trying to submit guys while they are still standing. Just for that alone the match-up might be intriguing.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Supermonkey, I never said Tim could make Randy’s thighs explode. Randy’s left knee was already in a padded support, that’s usually a good indication that part of the leg is a little weak. If Tim had lit up the inner nerve centers, when they got back on their feet Randy’s lead leg would have been easier to work with roundhouses.
Another important point about fighting is just because a particular technique might not be an outright fight ender it doesn’t mean it won’t slow the other guy down.
Typical MMA you and Cali Law are so busy looking for wrestling moves you over look striking opportunities. I won’t argue with you because it’s pointless. I can just tell that you are the kind of person who won’t believe an elbow can hurt until you actually eat one.
I’ve seen people like the two of you come into the dojo. Typically what happens is they are big and dumb, have an attitude and won’t be told anything. Then when it comes to fighting they’ll start trying to take out people half their size, till someone gets sick of their shit and fires them up. Then they get a hurt look on their face and say something whiney like “what did you do that for?”.
Obviously our points of view a diametrically opposed. I personally have no doubt that someone as big as Tim is not a person who one would want to just sit there and let him elbow them.
There were several times where Tim had control of both of Randy’s hands with one hand leaving the other hand free, those moments would have been great opportunities to drop an elbow in then come right back to the guard. Randy wasn’t missing opportunities to to smack him up the side of the head when it came open. Watch the video.
Another point of impracticality is how Tim could just lay there with Randy’s feet in his groin. Randy could have been hook kicking him silly. A couple of heels into the groin could have had a lot more effect than those smacks up the side of the head. [/quote]
MMA is a sport so I think it shouldn’t be compared to a confrontation on the street.
Also in deconstructing a fight there are always mistakes and missed oppurtunities. Even at the highest level. The things you pointed out I can understand.
But fighters train with a specific gameplan in mind and do not seem to deviate from it that much. They also know the options they have but are making decisions based on whether it is worth it. Sometimes in trying to make a specifc gameplan things get left out. Maybe Randy felt what he was doing was the best course. Randy did win so he succeeded on the level that counts most.
They are rumored to be holding it at 1pm in Japan so that they can do a live PPV in the United States though. Not sure how that will go over though since it will still be way too late for any non-west coast fans to watch. I suspect it will go over like most of Pride’s business dealings lately … like a lead balloon.
It’s a shame they can’t get their ducks in a row on the financial side of things, because their product in the ring is still top notch.
My bad. You are talking Pride, and I was thinking UFC.
Forget I said anything.
[/quote]
Dude, if you can, you should check out the event live…these things are good on tv, but even more awesome in person.