UFC 68

Off Topic
141

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The first round really showed where UFC rules allow fighters to get away with things you can’t do on the street. When they were lying on their backs Sylvia was in the perfect position to start using point of the elbow strikes against Couture’s inner thigh’s. [/quote]

Point of the elbow strikes are only illegal if you use them in a 12 to 6 motion, and rarely if ever are deemed as a foul if you are not throwing them at the head or spine.

From the position Timmah was in, he could have easily thrown point of the elbow strikes and not violated the 12 to 6 rule, and even if he had, Big John would have probably let it slide as long as they were directed at Randy’s thighs.

142

[quote]Hodgie wrote:
I’m always amazed when someone new to the fight game accuses a fight of being fixed. News Flash! This isn’t the 1950’s, the mob doesn’t run the UFC, Pride, or boxing for that matter.

Are there shady decisions in boxing that often favour the promoter’s fighter? Sure. The result benefits the promoter, but hurts boxing as a whole.

Seeing as how Dana White is the sole promoter for UFC fighters and the UFC company (a good thing, that may not last), it would be absolutely retarded to cheapen his product by fixing fights.

If you still don’t agree, just look at Rich Franklin. He’s the UFC’s marketing wet dream. Young, white, American, good looking, he’s perfect for selling Xyence’s stuff. Now the middleweight Champ.( Silva), is black, Brazilian, and doesn’t even speak english. Very bad trade off for Mr. Dana White. If the UFC were fixing fights, Franklin would not have lost and got his face mangled for his trouble.

[/quote]

“new to the fight game.” Riighht

Your use of another fight as evidence that the fight wasn’t fixed is fairly ineffective, except to point out your taste in men.

If you don’t think the UFC and Dana White benefitted greatly from Randy Couture’s comeback performance, you should stop smoking crack. It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that Timmy took a dive, it’s just my opinion and you have offered no evidence to the contrary.

143

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Mirko is a stronger, faster, more technical version of Chuck. [/quote]

With one key difference being that Mirko does not have Chuck’s ability to get back up after a takedown.

Granted, it is a bitch to get Cro Cop down in the first place, but once he is down he just tries to stalemate the his opponent and get the ref to stand things back up. It will be interesting to see how that approach plays out when he is jammed up against the fence and his opponent is raining down elbows.

144

[quote]Couture Sylvia looked fairly dull. I didn’t watch past the third round. At the bow in it looked like couture had bigger arms and was carrying less body fat.

The first round really showed where UFC rules allow fighters to get away with things you can’t do on the street. When they were lying on their backs Sylvia was in the perfect position to start using point of the elbow strikes against Couture’s inner thigh’s.

I think that is part of why I got so bored. I look at two guys just lying there stalemated and all I can think about is how one guy could be chewing the other to pieces, but he isn’t.

Fedor versus Mirko it certainly wasn’t.[/quote]

Sorry bro but those were some ignorant statements you made. First of all, it was a VERY exciting fight and if you didn’t think it was…you must not know enough about MMA to understand why Couture winning was so amazing.

Second, what is the point of comparing UFC rules and how it would work in the streets? The point is this, it’s a SPORT, so it HAS to have rules. That’s like saying in football, “well he could have tackled him if only he could grab his facemask…damn rules.”

The whole “stalemated” part was only the first round…did you even watch after that?

145

[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Mirko is a stronger, faster, more technical version of Chuck.

With one key difference being that Mirko does not have Chuck’s ability to get back up after a takedown.

Granted, it is a bitch to get Cro Cop down in the first place, but once he is down he just tries to stalemate the his opponent and get the ref to stand things back up. It will be interesting to see how that approach plays out when he is jammed up against the fence and his opponent is raining down elbows.[/quote]

A proper point. Heath Herring sure wasn’t ready for the UFC’s sparse stand-ups.

146

[quote]j281 wrote:

Second, what is the point of comparing UFC rules and how it would work in the streets? The point is this, it’s a SPORT, so it HAS to have rules. [/quote]

He was comparing it to Pride Fighting Championships rules, not to ‘street fighting’.

Had he said ‘Sylvia should have been able to knee the shit out him when Randy dropped to the four points stance’, I would have agreed. That is a legitimate rule difference between the two organizations and one in which the PFC rule is vastly superior (even Dana White admits as much). He just happened to choose a bad example because he did not know the details of ‘elbow point strikes’ rule.

147

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Steve4192 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Mirko is a stronger, faster, more technical version of Chuck.

With one key difference being that Mirko does not have Chuck’s ability to get back up after a takedown.

Granted, it is a bitch to get Cro Cop down in the first place, but once he is down he just tries to stalemate the his opponent and get the ref to stand things back up. It will be interesting to see how that approach plays out when he is jammed up against the fence and his opponent is raining down elbows.

A proper point. Heath Herring sure wasn’t ready for the UFC’s sparse stand-ups.[/quote]

Yeah, but can Randy do that for 5 rounds with Cro Cop’s power? To get close to Cro Cop you usually have to take some heavy shots on the way in. I can see Randy getting him down at some point but I can’t see him doing it consistantly for 5 rounds. I can’t see him doing enough damage from ground and pound or subbing him because Cro Cop is getting too good at defending off his back.

148

[quote]AdamC wrote:

I can’t see him doing enough damage from ground and pound or subbing him because Cro Cop is getting too good at defending off his back.
[/quote]

Mirko has never had to defend elbows before. All it takes is one perfectly placed elbow and the fight is over.

149

[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
AdamC wrote:

I can’t see him doing enough damage from ground and pound or subbing him because Cro Cop is getting too good at defending off his back.

Mirko has never had to defend elbows before. All it takes is one perfectly placed elbow and the fight is over.[/quote]

So who do you think will win?

150

All it takes is one perfectly placed INSERT ANY STRIKE HERE and the fight is over.

151

[quote]Hodgie wrote:
I’m always amazed when someone new to the fight game accuses a fight of being fixed. News Flash! This isn’t the 1950’s, the mob doesn’t run the UFC, Pride, or boxing for that matter.

Are there shady decisions in boxing that often favour the promoter’s fighter? Sure. The result benefits the promoter, but hurts boxing as a whole.

If you still don’t agree, just look at Rich Franklin. He’s the UFC’s marketing wet dream. Young, white, American, good looking, he’s perfect for selling Xyence’s stuff. Now the middleweight Champ.( Silva), is black, Brazilian, and doesn’t even speak english.
[/quote]

PRIDE is currently in the middle of a Yakuza scandal which led to the loss of their major TV contract.
The casino bosses who own the UFC are probably shining stars of legitimacy.
Worked fights are a part of combat sports that won’t die.

Anderson Silva is fighting Franklin in Ohio. I know it sells tickets, but way to villanize the Champ.

152

I don’t know if Slyvia took a dive…it looked like he was trying in rounds 2, 3 and 4, he just wasn’t that effective. Perhaps the back injury played into his lack of zip on his punches and his unwillingness to throw a kick; but as was pointed out on commentary, perhaps Slyvia didn’t throw the kick b/c he didn’t want to leave himself open for a takedown.

Plus, I think that knockdown in the opening seconds really threw Sylvia off his game. He wasn’t expecting that and once Randy started to get the takedowns, Sylvia became frustrated and to me, it was very similar to the Couture-Ortiz fight in that Randy imposed his will on the other guy, taking the opponent out of his gameplan and making him fight Randy’s fight.

UFC would’ve been happy with a Sylvia KO or submission win over Randy, for sure. They were looking to get a big win for Sylvia going into the CroCop fight, but Randy played the role of spoiler and if anyone was going to do it, it should’ve been Randy b/c he’s so easy to market to a large audience.

153

[quote]AdamC wrote:

So who do you think will win?[/quote]

Don’t get me wrong, given even odds I’d bet the house on Mirko. However, I can envision a number of scenarios where Randy could pull out the win.

Mirko’s sprawl is top-notch but like most sprawls it is geared towards stopping single/double leg shots rather than upper-body clinch trips and throws. I think Randy can get him to the ground (he gets everyone eventually), and if he gets him there Mirko is in trouble. It’s one thing to stalemate an opponent in the middle of a ring when they can’t use elbow strikes, but trying to stalemate someone when jammed up against a cage and eating elbows is a differnt animal altogether.

Cro Cop will have to learn a whole different approach to surviving on the ground. I think he will pick it up eventually, but it wouldn’t shock me if someone steal a win against him with a TKO strikes or cut stoppage before he gets it down pat.

154

[quote]Steve4192 wrote:
j281 wrote:

Second, what is the point of comparing UFC rules and how it would work in the streets? The point is this, it’s a SPORT, so it HAS to have rules.

He was comparing it to Pride Fighting Championships rules, not to ‘street fighting’.

Reread Steve’s post, he was replying to sifu’s comments, not the elbow conversation. Sifu pointed out the difference between UFC and street fighting, as if it were a bad thing.

155

[quote]slimjim wrote:
It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that Timmy took a dive, it’s just my opinion and you have offered no evidence to the contrary.[/quote]

A classic appeal to ignorance. Since no can disprove your “theory,” it is viable. NOT!

You’re the one making the claim. You bear the burden of proving your claim. Can you prove it?

156

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
slimjim wrote:
It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that Timmy took a dive, it’s just my opinion and you have offered no evidence to the contrary.

A classic appeal to ignorance. Since no can disprove your “theory,” it is viable. NOT!

You’re the one making the claim. You bear the burden of proving your claim. Can you prove it? [/quote]

I have to agree, show some valid reasoning or proof.

Considering how Tim toted that belt around with him and seemed prouder of that damn thing than a 9 yr old with a new bike on Christmas, I just can’t fathom him taking the dive.

Why can’t we just all agree that Randy outfought him, kicked his ass and it’s over.

157

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
slimjim wrote:
It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that Timmy took a dive, it’s just my opinion and you have offered no evidence to the contrary.

A classic appeal to ignorance. Since no can disprove your “theory,” it is viable. NOT!

You’re the one making the claim. You bear the burden of proving your claim. Can you prove it? [/quote]

Seems to me I clearly stated that it was my opinion…oh wait, yep, there it is in two of my posts on the subject.

You guys, on the other hand, offer up your opinions as if they are fact with nothing to back it up. I don’t feel like arguing semantics with you because you obviously have more time your hands than I do. However, do try to at least keep my statements in the context they were written in.

158

[quote]Djwlfpack wrote:
I don’t know if Slyvia took a dive…it looked like he was trying in rounds 2, 3 and 4, he just wasn’t that effective. Perhaps the back injury played into his lack of zip on his punches and his unwillingness to throw a kick; but as was pointed out on commentary, perhaps Slyvia didn’t throw the kick b/c he didn’t want to leave himself open for a takedown.

Plus, I think that knockdown in the opening seconds really threw Sylvia off his game. He wasn’t expecting that and once Randy started to get the takedowns, Sylvia became frustrated and to me, it was very similar to the Couture-Ortiz fight in that Randy imposed his will on the other guy, taking the opponent out of his gameplan and making him fight Randy’s fight.

UFC would’ve been happy with a Sylvia KO or submission win over Randy, for sure. They were looking to get a big win for Sylvia going into the CroCop fight, but Randy played the role of spoiler and if anyone was going to do it, it should’ve been Randy b/c he’s so easy to market to a large audience.[/quote]

This is true, but it seems like after it was very apparent that he absolutely could not defend the takedowns, he might have switched up and just started throwing bombs, especially in the fifth when the fight was pretty much decided in terms of scoring.

Maybe it was all the reasons that have been stated, or just one, and Tim either couldn’t adjust to the gameplan, or his back was hurt, or he got rattled after the first shot Randy landed, but something just didn’t look right about the way the fight went. Especially coming on the heels of a Pride event where there were numerous upsets…to have a heavy underdog win was a bit weird.

Another thing (completely unrelated,) if it wasn’t the fact that it was Randy taking Sylvia down, I kind of doubt we would have found it very exciting…if roles were reversed and Timmy took Randy down and couldn’t finish him we probably would have been up in arms over another boring decision from Sylvia.

159

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Djwlfpack wrote:
I don’t know if Slyvia took a dive…it looked like he was trying in rounds 2, 3 and 4, he just wasn’t that effective. Perhaps the back injury played into his lack of zip on his punches and his unwillingness to throw a kick; but as was pointed out on commentary, perhaps Slyvia didn’t throw the kick b/c he didn’t want to leave himself open for a takedown.

Plus, I think that knockdown in the opening seconds really threw Sylvia off his game. He wasn’t expecting that and once Randy started to get the takedowns, Sylvia became frustrated and to me, it was very similar to the Couture-Ortiz fight in that Randy imposed his will on the other guy, taking the opponent out of his gameplan and making him fight Randy’s fight.

UFC would’ve been happy with a Sylvia KO or submission win over Randy, for sure. They were looking to get a big win for Sylvia going into the CroCop fight, but Randy played the role of spoiler and if anyone was going to do it, it should’ve been Randy b/c he’s so easy to market to a large audience.

This is true, but it seems like after it was very apparent that he absolutely could not defend the takedowns, he might have switched up and just started throwing bombs, especially in the fifth when the fight was pretty much decided in terms of scoring.

Maybe it was all the reasons that have been stated, or just one, and Tim either couldn’t adjust to the gameplan, or his back was hurt, or he got rattled after the first shot Randy landed, but something just didn’t look right about the way the fight went. Especially coming on the heels of a Pride event where there were numerous upsets…to have a heavy underdog win was a bit weird.

Another thing (completely unrelated,) if it wasn’t the fact that it was Randy taking Sylvia down, I kind of doubt we would have found it very exciting…if roles were reversed and Timmy took Randy down and couldn’t finish him we probably would have been up in arms over another boring decision from Sylvia. [/quote]

I was surprised Sylvia didn’t open up more, either, but seems like he’s been reluctant to throw big bombs in his last 3 fights. Last time he really opened up was when he had Arlovsky in trouble in their 2nd fight. Since then, he’s been king of the jab and that’s about all.

I completely agree with the last point about Sylvia.

The fight wasn’t great in terms of action, but in terms of what it signified, it was huge and probably ranks in the top-3 moments in UFC history, possibly even THE top moment.

160

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Another thing (completely unrelated,) if it wasn’t the fact that it was Randy taking Sylvia down, I kind of doubt we would have found it very exciting…if roles were reversed and Timmy took Randy down and couldn’t finish him we probably would have been up in arms over another boring decision from Sylvia. [/quote]

I agree 100% with this. I said to my wife, “This fight was exciting only because I kept expecting Couture to get knocked out. It was like a thriller. You know what’s going to happen but it’s still exciting.” Well, Couture did not get knocked out, but you get the idea.

On a technical level, the fight was boring.