[quote]slimjim wrote:
Dude, if you can, you should check out the event live…these things are good on tv, but even more awesome in person.[/quote]
I would love to go - you have no idea. But it’s on April 7th. I am a tax accountant in real life. That’s a week before my biggest deadline of the year.
If it were pushed back 2 weeks - I would be there with bells on.
I just looked at the card. They have my two most hated fighters slated: Diego and Kendall Grove.
Otoko, I agree with you about MMA being a sport. However there are other people on this thread, one of whom who has in the past said that the only people who know how to defend themselves in a real fight are professional mixed martial artists.
I’ve seen this guy tell somone who trains with team militich that he doesn’t have any useful experience because he hasn’t done it for money.
Unfortunately this is T-Nation, not a dojo. On T-Nation there is no respect for Budo. Just watch the posts. Every now and then you will get someone post something along the lines of “I’m thinking of taking up a martial art so I can learn to defend myself”.
Usually one or more of our T-men martial artists will immediately respond with “all the traditional martial arts are useless for self defense”. “The only thing that works in the real world is MMA”. Or “Don’t study karate it’s useless for self defense, boxing or wrestling is much better for self defense”.
You have to realize Otoko this board is based in America and Americans have an overwelming mentality of “if it wasn’t invented here, it’s garbage”. Boxing and wrestling are traditional American sports, which to many Americans immediately makes them a far superior form of self defense than the traditional Asian self defensive arts.
So that is why fights have to be deconstructed. Because someone needs inject some sense of reality.
I don’t wish to knock MMA, however a lot of what is being called mixed martial arts is not at all. A lot of mixed martial artists are cutting themselves off to entire aspects of self defense. Ground and pound is fine and dandy if you want to get into a brawl at the local sports bar. But when is the last time some of you spent an entire training session doing nothing but self defense agaisnt a knife or gun disarms? Or how about how to deflect a blow from a baseball bat?
Some of those small joint locks that are banned in the UFC are quite useful when you are trying to get a knife or gun away from someone.
Some of you might poo poo what I am saying, but in the real world you are much more likely to come up against a punk with a bat, gun or knife than you are going to have a run in with a trained mixed martial artist who is going to know dozens of submissions.
As much as it happens in the movies usually you aren’t going to get jumped by ninja’s. The only person I can think of who was attacked by ninja’s was Carol Burnett.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Otoko, I agree with you about MMA being a sport. However there are other people on this thread, one of whom who has in the past said that the only people who know how to defend themselves in a real fight are professional mixed martial artists
I’ve seen this guy tell somone who trains with team militich that he doesn’t have any useful experience because he hasn’t done it for money.
Unfortunately this is T-Nation, not a dojo. On T-Nation there is no respect for Budo. Just watch the posts. Every now and then you will get someone post something along the lines of “I’m thinking of taking up a martial art so I can learn to defend myself”.
Usually one or more of our T-men martial artists will immediately respond with “all the traditional martial arts are useless for self defense”. “The only thing that works in the real world is MMA”. Or “Don’t study karate it’s useless for self defense, boxing or wrestling is much better for self defense”.
You have to realize Otoko this board is based in America and Americans have an overwelming mentality of “if it wasn’t invented here, it’s garbage”. Boxing and wrestling are traditional American sports, which to many Americans immediately makes them a far superior form of self defense than the traditional Asian self defensive arts.
So that is why fights have to be deconstructed. Because someone needs inject some sense of reality.
I don’t wish to knock MMA, however a lot of what is being called mixed martial arts is not at all. A lot of mixed martial artists are cutting themselves off to entire aspects of self defense. Ground and pound is fine and dandy if you want to get into a brawl at the local sports bar. But when is the last time some of you spent an entire training session doing nothing but self defense agaisnt a knife or gun disarms? Or how about how to deflect a blow from a baseball bat?
Some of those small joint locks that are banned in the UFC are quite useful when you are trying to get a knife or gun away from someone.
Some of you might poo poo what I am saying, but in the real world you are much more likely to come up against a punk with a bat, gun or knife than you are going to have a run in with a trained mixed martial artist who is going to know dozens of submissions.
As much as it happens in the movies usually you aren’t going to get jumped by ninja’s. The only person I can think of who was attacked by ninja’s was Carol Burnett.
[/quote]
I understand. Since instruction in nearly all martial arts and mma varies so greatly in America(that is a big country) and with how popular culture has dealt with martial arts I can understand most Americans feelings.
Wrestling and boxing are great.
Instruction is good and both have very good infrastructure. So compared to many martial arts they may be one’s best bet.
I think one things people fail to understand is it doesn’t matter if you wrestle and box if you aren’t good at it. Most people are not “good”. Those are sports and they have elements that you can apply to a fight. Unless you have been doing it for years and attain a high level of proficiency it will increase your chances somewhat in an unarmed situation against one person who is not proficient in anything and is hopefull not Bob Sapp sized.
For all the talk about how tough they are and what they can do and that martial arts are garbage, what is the point of saying so if you do not train anything. It is a belief that everybody thinks they can fight. But that is all it is, faith.
At some point I think it should dawn on people(obviously it does not) that if they were to face Bob Sapp in an alley and Bob Sapp wanted them dead they would die if they had no weapon. If a 60 kg national level judoka grabbed them they would be slammed into the ground and probably be hospitalized. I think this realiztion would make people feel helpless and that is why they cannot admit it, even though it is the closest thing to the truth.
There are very good martial artists who do not fight professionally yet possess very good abilities. For example Takanori Gomi’s(should be former Pride LW champ) coach who is a karate-ka only recently started to fight mma professionally. He has done well for himself.
He didn’t all of a sudden gain superpowers by having a pro license.
It is too bad martial arts has such a bad image. A few weeks ago a thread about BJJ brought all kind of negative comments. Considering mma had alot of public opinion against it maybe it makes sense that many martial arts were basterdized in America to appear less brutal. Thus losing all their effectiveness.
Also they demand hard training, like wrestling and boxing to be as effective as they should be. There isn’t an easy way. If people are hesitant to do the drills to be a good wrestler, or the sparring to be a good boxer they can’t expect to be any good at any martial art and expect it to be efective.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Supermonkey, I never said Tim could make Randy’s thighs explode. Randy’s left knee was already in a padded support, that’s usually a good indication that part of the leg is a little weak. If Tim had lit up the inner nerve centers, when they got back on their feet Randy’s lead leg would have been easier to work with roundhouses.
[/quote]
I was just exaggerating with the exploding thighs. It is just a risk to benefit ratio really. I mean yeah Tim could have elbowed Randy’s legs and hurt them which would effect Randy when standing later on. But the risk of getting choked out is just too high in order to implement such a game plan.
Yeah, Randy could kick him in the groin if there were no rules. But, eh, for the UFC to have continued its existene it had to have rules.
BTW I am very far from being a big guy.
Um . . . you must’ve completely missed the fact that whenever someone on T-Nation asks what martial art they should take up for self-defense purposes, by far and away the two most common responses given are Brazilian jui-jitsu and muay thai. Neither of which would be mistaken by anyone as having been “invented here” (in America). Nice try, though.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
You have to realize Otoko this board is based in America and Americans have an overwelming mentality of “if it wasn’t invented here, it’s garbage”.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Unfortunately this is T-Nation, not a dojo. On T-Nation there is no respect for Budo. Just watch the posts. Every now and then you will get someone post something along the lines of “I’m thinking of taking up a martial art so I can learn to defend myself”.
You have to realize Otoko this board is based in America and Americans have an overwelming mentality of “if it wasn’t invented here, it’s garbage”. Boxing and wrestling are traditional American sports, which to many Americans immediately makes them a far superior form of self defense than the traditional Asian self defensive arts.
[/quote]
Well yeah… This is America. Not Japan. You can’t necissarily expect people in the U.S. to follow traditional cultural values of various Asian countries just because they want to learn X fighting style.
I have to disagree with you on what you said about most Americans thinking that a martial art or combat sport is garbage unless invented here. It seems to be quite the opposite really. The most popular martial art in the US is TKD. Asian based martial arts are EVERYWHERE. Thanks to the media’s depiction and glorification of them through films and various other forms of media mostly.
The only reason MMA/BJJ and whatever else most of the people who participate in MMA in PRIMARILY the UFC and (of course) TUF are popular is because of the media exposure. People see it on the TV they want to do it.
Then you start to get incredibly watered down martial arts like the ATA TKD everywhere because it is a business. The business wants to make money and you don’t keep enough customers to make the $$ by beating them up.
Most people in the U.S. wouldn’t even consider boxing and wrestling to be martial arts. I don’t see how you can say that most Americans think boxing and wrestling are superior forms of self defense when the market is saturated with Dojos and Kwoons and Dojangs etc.
Though maybe you only meant good ones Kyokushin, Judo, Sanshou etc.
Just to reply to several post here…
First… I saw the clip of Rich Franklin and because he is from Cincinnati he gets a lot of support here in Louisville… he announced his match with Anderson was agreed by Dana to be in Cincinnati… which is great news for all of us here… any updates please post … I plan to be there
Also I have been exposed to several different Martial Arts entities and it is sad when making a buck comes before the tradition of the art… one officer… who was instruction as either a purple or brown belt here locally was charging more than any Brazilian Black Belt because he basically had a lock on BJJ instruction…
he had screwed many students out of money… he had since closed shop but is still instructing at another location… he is currently the only american black belt in Louisville, KY … some of you may know him…
what I am getting to is when I started out I trained at the Boys and Girls club for a nominal fee and the instructor was not dependent on if you where a member or not … he is a promoter with the RSKC and truely loves the martial art of Tang Soo Do and believe me you did not buy a rank … you earned it …
I would put any of his students up against any other student of one of the commercial studios… you learned the meaning of the art and the art as a way of life…
If you wanted something that would get you going in a short amount of time boxing does have some things going for it.
First off it only involves the use of the hands to punch. Simplicity can make it easy to get to a certain level of proficiency quickly. Pick up a martial art and you could be learning punches, kicks, joint locks, all at the same time. It’s going to take a longer time to get some kind of proficiency with so much more to practice.
Also the range a boxer is going to be used to fighting at is much closer, because there is no kicking involved. Too many martial artists are too used to fighting from long ranges that aren’t always available, with TKD being the worst for this.
Boxers tend to be a lot more used to dealing with head shots so they tend to be more consistent at guarding their heads. The down side of this is as you get older all those shots to the head can catch up with you.
You are right Otoko about bastardization going on here. There is a lot less dojo loyalty here in the states. The system I study has been particularly hurt by this.
Traditionally the optimum range for Isshinryu was the length of the forearm. Traditionally we had a lot more in common with Muay Thai than TKD. Lots of knees and elbows, and kicks below the waist because we are too close to go higher.
What has happened over the years is TKD people have gotten their butts handed to them at tournaments, which has made an impression so they decide join up.
If you have a commercial dojo it’s not good business sense to tell your customer that they are damaged goods from years of TKD and will need years of remedial training to break their TKD bad habits. A couple of years down the road this person gets a black belt later their own dojo and now they are teaching a bastardized system.
This why I don’t like to teach anyone who has prior training. I like to work with a clean sheet of paper. This is why I don’t solicit other people’s students.
Bastardization is one of the pitfalls of MMA. Unless you really know what you are doing you can’t just go from style to style learning a little bit of this and a little bit of that because some of these systems have radically different philosophy’s.
A few months ago somone posted that they did several years of TKD then did Wing Chun for two years and hated it. I bet they did, because they are trying to come from a Northern Shaolin Longfist tradition into a Southern Shaolin White Crane in-fighting system.
Once you have spent time working at those long ranges it’s not comfortable to go toe to toe like that. The discomfort would be in direct proportion to how good they were at TKD. The better you are at TKD the harder it is to get your head around going toe to toe and staying there.
Old habits die hard. Or as Bruce Lee used to say “you must first empty your cup of tea, before you can taste my cup of tea”.
Well said.
Another thing that everybody has failed to mentioned, is the fact that Randy had just laid Sylvia on his ass with that big punch to the chin, if there was somebody in this world that was surprised by that, was Tim, which obviously was trying to regain composure after being rocked, in the meantime, he was holding Couture’s arms in hopes that Big Jon McCarthy would get them back on their feet, but Big Jon said that he wasn’t going to do it, so he needed to get working, and that’s when they started grappling again.
I really don’t think this fight was fixed in any way, the reason why Tim looked so “off” is because of that initial round and because every time he will try to throw a jab, Randy responded with those wild punches, connecting almost every time. He also didn’t try to kick because he was afraid of being taken down.
Overall I though it was an incredible and inspiring fight. I really don’t think Randy stands a chance against CroCop though.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Sifu wrote:
stuff about elbows
This it the type of post to be expected from a traditional karate guy. If someone has your back, you can either use your arm to keep the person from sinking a rear naked choke, or you could go for an elbow strike. Once you moved for that elbow strike, the choke would be in.
This isn’t something you can be expected to know, of course. But you should learn some grappling before making claims about what someone in a MMA fight should do.[/quote]
Catch it while you can, if you haven’t yet. The whole Randy-Tim fight: