Ufc 104

Training
101

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
One thing that Lyoto did prove in this fight though was that he can take a punch/kick and keep on going. He’s not going to be easily KO’d, even if someone connects. He also proved yet again, that he is one tough guy to take down.

What I’m most disappointed with though, is the fact that we won’t get to see Anderson fight for the LHW belt any time soon as a result of Lyoto “remaining” champ. I would have loved to see Anderson fight Shogun.

But I bet we do see Randy Couture vs Machida.

I could see Couture getting a bullshit title shot if he gets past Vera. That would be horrible for Couture…he has nothing for Machida.[/quote]

Well, several divisions are this way.

No one has anything for BJ if he decides to put in work prior to the fight.

No one has anything for GSP.

No one has anything for Anderson Silva at either middleweight, LHW, or probably HW either.

The level of athleticism in the UFC simply hasn’t caught up to the NBA or NFL. Several of the divisions are dominated by super-athletic guys against whom the UFC has no one to throw. It’s getting pretty sad, really. I actually like the fights in the WEC a lot better.

102

Except everyone thought Shogun won the fight.

103

[quote]drewh wrote:
Except everyone thought Shogun won the fight. [/quote]

Yeah, but he hasn’t fought Anderson Silva. Neither has Machida.

104

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
One thing that Lyoto did prove in this fight though was that he can take a punch/kick and keep on going. He’s not going to be easily KO’d, even if someone connects. He also proved yet again, that he is one tough guy to take down.

What I’m most disappointed with though, is the fact that we won’t get to see Anderson fight for the LHW belt any time soon as a result of Lyoto “remaining” champ. I would have loved to see Anderson fight Shogun.

But I bet we do see Randy Couture vs Machida.

I could see Couture getting a bullshit title shot if he gets past Vera. That would be horrible for Couture…he has nothing for Machida.

Well, several divisions are this way.

No one has anything for BJ if he decides to put in work prior to the fight.

No one has anything for GSP.

No one has anything for Anderson Silva at either middleweight, LHW, or probably HW either.

The level of athleticism in the UFC simply hasn’t caught up to the NBA or NFL. Several of the divisions are dominated by super-athletic guys against whom the UFC has no one to throw. It’s getting pretty sad, really. I actually like the fights in the WEC a lot better. [/quote]

Speaking of WEC fights, that recent Henderson/Cerrone one was great, better than anything on the last 2 or 3 UFC cards. I’m looking forward to Brown/Aldo more than UFC 105.

105

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Bondslave wrote:
I never said Machida “beat” shogun. Quit making things up to make your point. It doesn’t suit you.

Oh? So you don’t feel that Machida beat Shogun on top of saying that Shogun didn’t beat Machida?

No, clearly no one won that fight. /sarcasm

Seriously, one of the worst decisions I’ve ever seen. I wanted Machida to win that fight, but he didn’t.

And how about that bullshit stoppage of the Rothwell fight, what is up with stopping it when one guy is getting back up to his feet? Yeah, he was losing decisively, but at least give the guy the chance to actually lose legitimately.[/quote]

If you watch the Rothwell fight again, the ref was stepping in at the point that Rothwell had just recieved 5 or 6 unanswered punches to the face. Mazagati (sp?) was waving his arms and stepping in. Then, just after that Rothwell starts to stand up. The fight had already been called due to the unanswered blows.

On the whole I like to see the decisive KO so that there is no argument but a dazed fighter taking repeated blows is what leads to brain damage.

106

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
rundymc wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
As much as I like Machida, he lost that fight. He won round 3 and that’s it. Shogun landed better shots, had him against the cage, and fought an overall better fight. Lyoto was hurt badly. I don’t think he wants a piece of Shogun again. I do feel really bad for Shogun, I’m sure he’s won some fans.

The key to breaking down Machida is now exposed: attack him, be proactive, go after his legs. Lyoto’s next opponent I guarantee will break down this tape and see what needs to be done.

I agree. But who’s next for the dragon? Can Rashad take another stab at him? He certainly has the tools to emulated Shogun’s gameplan. Will Rampage return? Will Shogun get a VERY well deserved immediate rematch?

Velasquez dominated Rothwell. I’m surprised Mazzagati didn’t stop the fight in the first round. Even if the fight went the distance, I thought Cain won the first round 10-8, and Rothwell could have won rounds 2/3 for a draw, at best.

I would have scored that round 10-7, heheh. That reminded me of back when I was a kid and I’d fight my little brother (who at the time was half my size). Cain fucking manhandled him, made Rothwell look like a complete amateur. I highly doubt there was any coming back from that.

And AJ, nice start to the main event with a 30-second KO.

Bullshit, Yoshida was totally fine, totally ready to defend.[/sarcasm]
Seriously though, AJ is too fucking BIG for 170. He claimed a knee injury kept him from making weight, but honestly I think 185’s his home. Look at him, his body fat’s in the low single digits come fight time, you’re telling me there’s 5.5 pounds of fat and water he can pull out of there without fucking himself up with diuretics? Plus, I’d go so far as to say he’s bigger than Cung Le, Henderson, shit even Marquardt, not to mention Maia.

Next for the Dragon? Maybe the winner of Rashad-Thiago? Lyoto beat both of them back to back, but know they have a huge advantage as compared to last time. Is it fair for other LHW if Rashad or Thiago gets a chance ahead of everyone else. An immediate rematch with Shogun would be great, but I don’t know if it will happen.

Yeah Cain whooped up. I’m thinking maybe Cain-Dos Santos for the right to fight winner of Lesnar-Carwin?

Yeah AJ needs to fight at MW. He’s huge for WW, and perfect for MW. Apparently, he had to cut from 220 to make weight, then blamed it on a new cutting method given to him by a friend of an agent. Then the knee injury. Don’t know what’s true or not.[/quote]

What huge advantage do they have? It is not a huge secret that if someone is mobile and hard to hit you want to work on their legs and body to slow them down. Saying it and doing it are two very different things. Shogun is a far better fighter than Thiago or Rahsad and he couldn’t get the KO. And you can guarentee that Machida will be in the Gym tomorrow working on that facet of his game.

I thought it was a bad decision but not the worst I have seen. Mind you, for all the people saying ‘you have to beat the champ…’ I guess Machida will be champ for a while then. When someone fights that defensively and has KO counterpunching then it is very hard to force the action.

Machida fights not to lose and waits for the other guy to get frustrated and leave a gap. Breaking that down even over 5 rounds is going to be tough for anyone if the judges want to see a knock down before they give a round to the challenger.

107

[quote]Valor wrote:
XiaoNio wrote:
coolp3ople wrote:
it wasn’t a bad decision, it was a pretty even fight.
1 - shogun proved he could do what? leg kick. ohh boy thats a real champion right there.
2 - Lyoto landed actual punches and defended take-downs, shogun didn’t land much except the leg kicks.

I felt like the judges failed at first but after some thoughts on the matter i didn’t really see shogun proving himself as a true ufc champion in the judges eyes.

  1. Obviously you’ve never felt the damaging effects of a series of leg kicks and body kicks. Did you not notice Machida progressively slowing down and then stumbling around while covering up?

Here’s some examples of leg kicks winning fights:

  1. Shogun landed some good punches and elbows. Also, since when does defending take downs net you points? Getting a take down can, but defending one shouldn’t. Kind of like defending a submission shouldn’t win you points.

Not to be living in the past, but if this was Pride, Machida definitely would have lost on the “damage done” clause. Then again, even without damage, I would have thought Shogun would have won on the UFC’s “cage control” and aggression metric.

Anyway, I would have a hard time giving any round to Machida. I would give a slight edge to Shogun in the beginning just for landing more strikes and say he pulled away in the later rounds as Machida clearly started stumbling and covering up. Machida definitely landed a few strikes, but on a per round basis, I don’t think he ever dealt more damage than Shogun.

What did Lyoto do? He did nothing in that fight! Clearly Shogun did more damage. Neither fought a great fight, but at the end of the day Shogun, without question, did more damage, controlled every aspect of that fight.[/quote]

Neither fought a good fight? Please tell me this was your first time watching MMA.

Shogun fought an amazing fight. He had a gameplan and stuck to it perfectly. I can see an argument that a judge might give round 1 to Machida because it was close and he is the champ. Round 3 possibly you can give to Machida for the flurry. But please tell me what he did in an y of Rounds 2, 4 and 5?

108

[quote]Im Yolked wrote:
Well shogun won and he knows it, the fans know it and even machida knows, as you could tel by that rather lame but diplomatic answer post-fight, when asked if he thinks he won.

I think the UFC just didn’t want one of their biggest cash cows to be killed off by a decision win.

But thus ends the ‘Machida era’. I lol every time I think of machidas supposed ‘elusiveness’ now. If he didn’t have a decent chin he would’ve got ktfo yesterday.

Assuming A.silva retires soon, he’s best off moving to MW. Might be jumping the gun a bit, He’s good no doubt, but I don’t he’ll last as lhw champ much longer. And he looked a little undersized against shogun imo.

[/quote]

How is Machida a UFC cash cow. He is broadly seen as a boring fighter that is mainly liked by purists. Shogun is way, way, way more marketable. It was a crappy decision but laying it at the UFCs door is ridiculous. The judges are provided by the Athletic Commission and the judging criteria are also defined by the AC.

109

Watching Struve fight was surreal, he’s the human version of those bugs that disguise themselves at sticks.

110

[quote]ZEB wrote:

What he may have said to Shogun AFTER the fight is not nearly as important to me as what he said to the judges, or to people who talked to the judges BEFORE the fight. What do you think he had to gain by handing Bisping the win over Hamill when Hamill clearly won the fight? It’s called money, big ppv dollars from England. Similar motivation with a Machida win. He’s a big undefeated drawing card and Dana White will do whatever he can to keep the big money flowing in. Him saying what he said to Shogun after the fight is pure theater.

[/quote]

You really think Lyoto is more marketable than Shogun…? I disagree! Oh well.

111

Lyoto’s strategy exposed by his brother.

Advanced Machida gameplanning.

112

Just watched the Shogun fight. Highway robbery. Unanimous decision? Hells no, I would have believed a split decision, but come on.

113

[quote]dhickey wrote:
ZEB wrote:

we get it dude…you don’t like the UFC. They are coersing fighters into slavery and fixing fights.

…yawn[/quote]

When you wake up explain to me how Bisping got the decision, why they gave Machida the decision and finally why the UFC pays their fighters far less than any other major sport. The reason that I am so vocal is that I love mma and hate to see it go down a road that has no return.

114

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
ZEB wrote:

What he may have said to Shogun AFTER the fight is not nearly as important to me as what he said to the judges, or to people who talked to the judges BEFORE the fight. What do you think he had to gain by handing Bisping the win over Hamill when Hamill clearly won the fight? It’s called money, big ppv dollars from England. Similar motivation with a Machida win. He’s a big undefeated drawing card and Dana White will do whatever he can to keep the big money flowing in. Him saying what he said to Shogun after the fight is pure theater.

You really think Lyoto is more marketable than Shogun…? I disagree! Oh well.[/quote]

I think this way for the following reasons:

  1. Machida has a background in Karate and thus brings in more traditional karate fans, many who have thus far questioned mma. You know the guys, the ones who are saying things like, “in a street fight my sensei would beat Fedor, bla, bla, bla”. Well these guys now have a karate hero of their own who has climbed the mma ranks and is now champion. New fans mean new dollars and Dana White loves new dollars. Besides he is surrounded by mystique, a karate guy champion of the UFC? Someone who drinks his own urine? Okay, this guy is different and different sells tickets.

  2. Up until the Shogun fight Machida had not only never lost a fight in the UFC, but never even lost a round! That means more ppv hits when this guy fights. People want to see an undefeated fighter for two reasons, some want to see him lose the others win. Even though their was corrupt judging involved, many will tune in again to see Machida lose (or win) but they want to see him fight because of the bad call with the Shogun fight. Remember wanting to see Bisping get his head handed to him by Henderson?

115

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
ZEB wrote:

What he may have said to Shogun AFTER the fight is not nearly as important to me as what he said to the judges, or to people who talked to the judges BEFORE the fight. What do you think he had to gain by handing Bisping the win over Hamill when Hamill clearly won the fight? It’s called money, big ppv dollars from England. Similar motivation with a Machida win. He’s a big undefeated drawing card and Dana White will do whatever he can to keep the big money flowing in. Him saying what he said to Shogun after the fight is pure theater.

You really think Lyoto is more marketable than Shogun…? I disagree! Oh well.

I think this way for the following reasons:

  1. Machida has a background in Karate and thus brings in more traditional karate fans, many who have thus far questioned mma. You know the guys, the ones who are saying things like, “in a street fight my sensei would beat Fedor, bla, bla, bla”. Well these guys now have a karate hero of their own who has climbed the mma ranks and is now champion. New fans mean new dollars and Dana White loves new dollars. Besides he is surrounded by mystique, a karate guy champion of the UFC? Someone who drinks his own urine? Okay, this guy is different and different sells tickets.

  2. Up until the Shogun fight Machida had not only never lost a fight in the UFC, but never even lost a round! That means more ppv hits when this guy fights. People want to see an undefeated fighter for two reasons, some want to see him lose the others win. Even though their was corrupt judging involved, many will tune in again to see Machida lose (or win) but they want to see him fight because of the bad call with the Shogun fight. Remember wanting to see Bisping get his head handed to him by Henderson?

[/quote]

There was no corrupt judging involved. I am telling you that as a 100% fact. Any proof comes out that the UFC has a hand in a corrupt decision and they are over, done, finished.

Do you think anyone in the organisation is stupid enough to risk a business that you value at over a billion for one boring fighter?

It was a close fight. Watching on television I gave it to Rua. Had I been sitting in the judges seat with a fixed view, maybe I would have seen it differently.

Bisping fight, I was at that fight and when it finished I turned to my friend and said that I thought that Bisping had probably won on the judges cards based on more effective and sustained striking but that this would be a very unpopular decision. That is exactly what happened.

The scoring system in MMA needs to be improved. The standard of judges also leaves a lot to be desired. Neither of these are the UFCs fault (though it would be good if they lobbied for improvements more loudly.)

116

There was no corrupt judging involved. I am telling you that as a 100% fact. Any proof comes out that the UFC has a hand in a corrupt decision and they are over, done, finished.

Do you think anyone in the organisation is stupid enough to risk a business that you value at over a billion for one boring fighter?

It was a close fight. Watching on television I gave it to Rua. Had I been sitting in the judges seat with a fixed view, maybe I would have seen it differently.

Bisping fight, I was at that fight and when it finished I turned to my friend and said that I thought that Bisping had probably won on the judges cards based on more effective and sustained striking but that this would be a very unpopular decision. That is exactly what happened.

The scoring system in MMA needs to be improved. The standard of judges also leaves a lot to be desired. Neither of these are the UFCs fault (though it would be good if they lobbied for improvements more loudly.)

117

That’s great “The crowd boos Vernon for sucking.” Chinzo Machida

118

It’s all opinion at this point they need a clear system specific to mma.

119

[quote]drewh wrote:
It’s all opinion at this point they need a clear system specific to mma. [/quote]

I think it would be interesting to see them split the judging so you have a couple of judges judging the standup and a couple of judges judging the ground work.

Wouldn’t make a differance for this fight of course as it was all standup.

Also, the 10 point must doesn’t work in a 3 or 5 round fight, there are not enough rounds. In boxing with a 12 round fight there are normally enough rounds for the better fighter to be clear.

MMA judging over 3 or 5 rounds is like a 2 minute long basketball match. I also think we are getting to the point where the athleticism is high enough at the elite level that more rounds for championship fights makes sense.

120

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
I also think we are getting to the point where the athleticism is high enough at the elite level that more rounds for championship fights makes sense.[/quote]

I was thinking about this myself after noticing how fresh Shogun was after 5 rounds. I don’t think Machida would have lasted another round.